One thing to remember, if talk ever turns around to OW, etc., don't forget to keep pointing out your displeasure about it. Not nagging him to leave her, but voicing your feelings about what an afair is, how you don't want to have anything to do with an affair. Keep taking the high road.

Also I asked this in a new question but so far not much response...
Do you think it would do any good to expose to a couple more friends of WH?
One of them is pretty moralistic and a good friend to WH. He would be extremely upset with WH I believe. I am friendly with both him and his wife but they are more WH's friends then mine.
Thanks
Q

Q,

With d-day not so far in the past, I'd think there was something wrong with you if you DIDN'T struggle through the holidays. And the flu, not being able to exercise and no break from the little ones on top of that. Those things can cause dips in the roller coaster as well as your natural fluctuation of feelings during this time. ((((Q))))

About those relationship talks..."nothing particularly bad..." You're right, they're not productive, but I wonder, has he TOLD you he won't give OW up? Is he proclaiming love for her? You just said "he won't leave her" but I'm wondering what he's said that makes you know that. Are you reading between the lines?

If he really and truly wanted no part of you, I cannot imagine that he would make the trip--if he were sure OW is his soul mate, he'd just forfeit the money. Even if all he's trying to do is keep you on the line, there's a reason for that. Maddening, of course, but not hopeless. That's all I'm saying.

Still, without encouragement from him, you're better off avoiding relationship/recovery talk. I know how hard that is--I wasn't very good at it myself during that awful Plan A period.

Your best bet right now, since you cannot move things forward yourself, is to wait for trouble to arise in paradise for him. It's practically inevitable, but nobody can guess when it will happen or the course it will take. Just be the beacon, till you are dead sure you want to turn the light out.

Holding you in prayer.

Why not expose to WH's "moralistic" friend? You need all the help you can get.

However, I'm wondering about the timing here. You KNOW he will be pissed off if you reveal his dirty little secret to this friend and his wife so soon before your visit. Would there be opportunity for the friend to voice his disapproval quickly? Does your WH see these people regularly? If so, I'd say go for it.

Of course, I can also make a case for not worrying about the timing, so I hope you'll get different opinions on this. Choose whatever plan fits the situation and makes the most sense to you.

I think you should stay indignant that you're having to keep fighting for your marriage. With that, you have every right to tell everyone you know what he's doing. Definitely keep exposing to everyone you think of. If he asks about it, just tell him you would have told them way back when you told everyone else, but you were too upset at the time to remember them.

I'm also thinking of exposing to OW's parents although I have been told that they already know (by OW's ex).
In order to call OW's parents I would need to call OW's ex to get their phone number and that is hard for me.
Whenever I speak to OW's ex (I think we've spoken 3 times - maybe 2 - honestly don't remember) but both or all three of those times my body went right into shock. As in stopped eating, mouth went dry, etc. And I do not think I can deal with that again so I do not want to call him. But do have a strong desire to tell all to OW's parents. I also would like to ask OW's ex and parents to cut off all financial support to OW but don't know if they would oblige. OW and her ex were never married but do have a child. I have no idea if he gives her money right now.
But as RHW questions - how much is this going to piss off WH before his trip here where I should be in plan A? He is coming on Jan 31st - in exactly 4 weeks.
Thoughts??

I just had a (positive! yeah!) thought as to OW and the fact that she may soon begin to get needy.

My WH says things like 'I don't want to participate in the lifestyle you have created' and he feels he is living in 'my world', not his own. And I do believe that OW probably also wants to be living in 'my world' because my world is a pretty awesome place to be. We live in the Caribbean and own 5 rental apartments which I run and have a good deal of fun decorating and also taking care of our guests. We travel between here and an amazing city in Europe where we have an apartment and spend two months per year. We also spend a month at the seaside in Europe. Last year we took several Caribbean vacations and went to NYC two times for a week. We surf and play tennis and have three amazing kids. Suffice it to say that OW is probably drooling over our 'lifestyle' and probably wants to simply BE me. WH just wants to be single and have a girlfriend. I have to believe that OW is going to start causing problems soon.

What I need to do is keep enjoying this 'lifestyle'. In fact today speaking with WH I mentioned that in March I will either take a one week Caribbean vacation with our babysitter or I will travel for a month in the US. I am required to leave the island every three months so I need to go away again for immigration purposes. I hope that he relays all this to OW! Oh it is making me so happy just thinking that he will tell her about it. I have to book this trip within the next week because immigration requires I have plane tickets within 30 days of the past trip - I only have until the 11th... so he will hear more about it soon. I also have arranged for the owner of this incredible surf camp to use one of our apartments for two months in exchange for free camps for me. These surf camps are literally magical. They are camp for adults - extremely challenging and motivating and they come to the island for several weeks per year only. I guess that me having a good life here will be beneficial in that if WH tells OW about it she will want to be me. I suppose he will tell her because I will be doing a camp while WH is here. I'm going to have to be a bit more in your face about the whole um, 'lifestyle'... How can I make sure he tells her about it though??

When I lived in Europe my son went to the French school in the city we live in (not France) and across the street from the school was a fancy, very expensive coffee bar. I used to go there many mornings with WH if we took our son to school together or with the other moms from the school for a coffee. In an e-mail to WH, OW mentioned that very coffee shop and how it looks so nice and how she dreams of going there with WH. Again, this is her wanting to be me without knowing who me is or that I had ever been in that coffee shop, let alone hundreds of times. I really don't think she wants to just be his GF but rather his wife who enjoys the same luxuries that I do. And WH doesn't want this. (I have seen these e-mails because we had about a week of a NC letter and I had access to WH's computer at that time. I photocopied all the old e-mails).

Sorry it's late and I'm not sure this is all clear... but writing it out is making me feel a bit better.

thanks to all
Q

As to exposure I'm not sure I'm going to do it.
I will expose to our friend who is visiting the island as I will see him tomorrow and have been planning on telling him. I tell pretty much everyone I see - the question is about e-mailing people I would not ordinarily see which seems more intrusive somehow - more like I went out and did it on purpose rather than to just tell someone who I am having a conversation with anyway.
I am really undecided as to whether I want to deal with his anger after I expose.
Also whether to expose to OW's parents... I really do feel like calling them and exposing their daughter for the ho that she is. Having an affair with a married man who has 3 kids between 2 and 7 years old that he left halfway around the world...

Q,

I'm seeing here.

If you and your H are ever to reconcile, it is imperative that you arrange a lifestyle you BOTH enjoy. Apparently HE considers the life you have in the Caribbean YOUR lifestyle, and one he doesn't want. Yet YOU love it.

Do you see the problem?

Are you willing to exchange your "awesome" life there for the possibility of an awesome life with him somewhere you can both agree on? Could you do that? If not, make that decision and share it with him. If you would be willing to go to some new place altogether with him, suggest that to him.

I know, I know, he keeps changing his mind about where he wants to live, and originally liked the idea of the Caribbean. But that's no longer true, so you'd have to negotiate the next spot. If you'd changed your mind, wouldn't you want him to work with you on finding an arrangement that suits you both?

RHW

I was thinking the same thing. It may just be that he feels emasculated that you're more successful than him; many men can't survive that. Or he may see the decisions you've made as Independent Behavior. Certainly worth talking about - after the fog has cleared.

But I wanted to comment on this:
You know that MB says you won't get him out of the affair without exposing. It says he will be mad. It says that exposing has nothing to do with Plan A. Exposing is doing what is necessary for restoring your marriage. Plan A is for showing him what he's missing. Not the same. Getting him mad has nothing to do with Plan A, but you HAVE to expose or he'll never leave OW.

I know it's scary, but think of it as God's way of teaching you how to be stronger. We went to a church retreat last month, and they have a rock-climbing wall. One of the girls was so scared, but I knew if she did tackle it, it would add tons and tons of self-confidence, and if she walked away without trying, it would be one of those things that she remembered the rest of her life as a failure, and would make her a less self-assured person, one who didn't take chances. Anyway, she did it, made it all the way up, and she was just thrilled.

You'll get the same reward if you follow through, personally, as well as strike a huge blow on the affair.

Yes, RHW, it is true that I like the lifestyle. (I think it's funny to call it a 'lifestyle' since it is just 'life' not a style... and I just live it day to day and think about the kids more than anything else in the world. (probably also a huge part of our problem, that).
And yes I have agreed over and over again to live anywhere we both agree upon.
Right after D-Day we went into false recovery where he sent a NC letter and honored it for about two weeks. During this time I came up with a plan of doing 6 months here and 6 months in Europe. WH was ELATED! He thought it was an excellent idea and strangely enough he STILL talks about it even though he is with OW. My response is always along the lines of, 'yes, if we are still together then we can do that, but if you are with OW, I am not going to spend 6 months per year in your city to be near you and OW.'
I have also told WH that I am not sure I'll ever be able to live in our city in Europe again since his affair is taking place there. But he works in another big city in the same country very often and I think we could go live there or in a neighboring town. I have friends visiting the island from that country today and we discussed in detail where I would be able to live, with WH to be near work, in a reasonably populated place, near nature, etc.. and we came up with some options. I absolutely do not need to live in the Caribbean and I think both WH and I would agree to keep one apartment only that we could use for vacations here or for several months per year. All of this has been discussed with WH and I have made it very clear that I am open to discussion. But - here we are talking about recovery and we are still pretty darn far from that.
Meanwhile, today I spent the entire day with friends and my kids at the beach and had a wonderful day with no WH at all. No phone call for the first time in a while and honestly do not miss him. I exposed to the friends I saw today who are also his friends and also good friends with the other two people I was thinking of exposing to.

Catperson - you make one heck of a great argument. Thanks for your excellent advice. I will do it, how could I not after that speech?? You rock. How do you feel about me calling OW's parents? I suppose I should do that too, no?

xx

Another important point... hope I make this clear.
One BIG worry in my life is that when WH talks about lifestyle, he is not talking about living in the Caribbean. He is talking about family life. I am afraid that he does not want to participate in family life. He does not want to help give the kids a bath or read them a story at night and when he plays with them he can only 'stand it' for a few minutes and he has to stop. When I see other fathers playing with their kids I marvel at their endurance because WH just doesn't have it in him to spend time with the kids. For his upcoming trip to visit us he keeps talking about how he wants to spend two 'really high quality' weeks with the kids - no work at all. He talks about doing this from now on - live in Europe most of the time and come visit us for a couple of weeks now and then for intense parenting, none of that around all the time but not doing a good job - better to be here only to visit but be here 100%. This is pretty upsetting to me and seems to me pretty infantile and, well, nuts - because I know very well that nothing will be different for those two weeks. Right now he wants to go out dancing and singing and listening to rock bands. He is 43 and goes out with 20 somethings. I am afraid that the 'lifestyle' he wants is the single life. That is never going to be what I want. I will be 38 this month and have a 2 year old, a 5 year old and a 7 year old and absolutely do not have it in me to party with college students. At a certain point before D-day he was going to gay bars with a gay friend and so proud that this friend (someone somewhat successful in the movie business) got him into the bars without waiting in line and such... so incredibly infantile. (and no, he's not gay - I think he thinks it's in fashion to frequent gay disco clubs though- don't forget we are talking about Europe and things are a bit different than the US).

The big question is whether this is what he wants now while he is wayward or whether this is what he really wants out of life. What do you think?

Also can someone just please tell me that this affair has no shot at lasting? Where is melodylane?- she tells a lot of people that... and I want to hear it. (-:

Thanks again
Q

Well, Q, I'm not Melody Lane, but I CAN tell you what we all know: AFFAIRS DO NOT LAST FOREVER. Some last a few weeks, most last a number of months and some can last a couple of years or more. And affairees rarely marry (and when they do, the success rate is abysmal).

Them's the facts, supported by research. Problem with statistics, though, is that they never predict a given situation. Maddening. If I'd known up front, for example, that my FWH would be absorbed in POSOW for 6 months in a PA, and would continue to talk to her on the sly for a couple of months after he "ended" it, and continue to work in the same building as her for another 13 months after that, I would've been better prepared to weather the storm. If I'd known known in the end he'd finally pull his head out of his [censored] and become a model husband, the anguish would have been more bearable.

But none of us knows what the end looks like till our particular situation plays out.

Only when we have the other bookend that that marks the end of the A can we begin to contain it.

It's, at it's heart, an endurance test.

Hang in there.

PS: Glad to know you are still open to moving house should the possibility of R open up. I agree, 6 months together in OW's part of the world is NOT acceptable.

Right Here Waiting

This is HUGE! Good observation.
I can't believe I have not discussed this here earlier.
WH has mentioned many times that I am the strong one in the relationship, I am the one who is 'happy' and since the A began told me on one occasion that I am too 'masculine' for him. In the same conversation he also told me I'm too tall for him and he is attracted to short women (sorry, where is that vomit icon?) Not that I have anything against being short but I really don't want to hear who WH is 'attracted' to. He is my H for goodness sakes. Sounds like I'm talking to a teenager who is still ruminating on what his 'type' is - only this is my life and there are 3 little kids in the picture - I digress. Same conversation he also told me he likes weak women. I have worked on wall street, given birth at home to three kids because of my strong views on medicine and birth, learned several languages, stuff like that - (but never considered myself 'successful'). He definitely sees me as smarter than him and doesn't like it. The problem which I am willing to admit here is that I also see me as smarter than him and at least at the moment and probably for quite some time in the past (having a hard time remembering the past right now) I have seen him as juvenile. His family treats him like a child and I used to wonder why but then I fell victim to doing the same thing.

My question - What can I do about him feeling emasculated?

Meanwhle unfortunately today we had another long, circular conversation that would have been better not to have had. I exposed to some people and he actually said, x doesn't know and y doesn't know and I said, 'what do you mean, of course they know. I told them.' And I told him that I did it not out of anger or spite but because I want to save our marriage and that I knew it would cause him to be mad but I do not want to enable his affair and keeping quiet would enable it. I know, I know... teaching is a no no. What can I do??? I have all this on my mind and am incapable of being an actor. I say what is on my mind.

At the same time we laughed a lot and joked a lot, never lost our tempers, and actually now that I think about it he told me that my IC asked him to do some joint sessions with me when he comes to visit at the end of the month and he agreed. too bad there is still no NC... but at least there is some positive news to report.

I also jogged, windsurfed, saw my visiting friends (who were windsurfing too) and got some errands done... so am keeping up my end of things there.

kids to bed -
Q

Q,

If his family has always treated him like a child, and he ACTS like a child, I could see how easy it would be for you to perceive him as a child.

But it appears to me that he's emasculated HIMSELF. You are not responsible for his childish behavior. Responsible for disrespecting him, putting him down in your mind (and/or with your words over the years), trying to "educate" him? Yes. Understandable how all that happened, but until you can see him as someone not "less" than you, nothing will change. You can't stop him feeling anything, but you can change how YOU feel about and perceive HIM.

How 'bout when you see him later this month, you have a conversation about that? What would happen if you confessed your superior attitude, apologized for all the times you conveyed that to him, and told him you have had a change of heart about it. You want to relate as two adults, and for you that means staying out of the business of "fixing" him. Tell him you want to explore the real him and show him the real you under that superior attitude.

Yes, you're unhappy that he's gone off to find a woman whose behavior makes him see himself as a man. BE THAT WOMAN.

My D18 likes a guy who is just gorgeous. So cute! And sweet and fun...But he doesn't know it, for some reason. But he told her that he always chooses girls who aren't that good looking, because he's afraid that the prettier ones won't think he's good enough for them and will dump him.

Wow, cat. Hope your daughter was self-assured enough not to read the insult implied in his statement! Sure he didn't mean it that way, but

I absolutely see what you are saying but I am not sure I can do this. It will take a huge amount of soul searching on my part. And I'm not sure I will 'feel' it. I really, honestly do feel like he is this dumb little idiotic kid. That's how I feel right now. I have nearly no respect for him and am having a very hard time listening to what he has to say.

Also, RHW, how do I just simply change how I perceive him when he IS behaving childishly? And does throw tantrums... I really am questioning the fact that I have been verbally abused for a long time and trying to love the person who is doing that is possibly not the right direction to head.

I am going to do my best to take Catperson's earlier advice to stop making him think I am 'right here waiting' (irony...) and get on with my life. I have been phoning him way too much and I need to stop. I need to get things into perspective and I desperately want to keep trying despite all of the above.

I wish I could start plan B right now. The week of X-mas I did not speak to him at all as I was MAD that week. Now he has mentioned at least 3 times that he was going crazy that week and was absolutely in a terrible mood because he had not heard from me. I am a bit mad at myself that I went back to plan A.

Again... this is a bit here and a bit there. But so is my brain.

On a positive note, I have almost finished painting the boys room and am really proud. I have gone windsurfing the last 3 days in a row and have enjoyed it to an almost embarrassing extent. While out there on the water I have a permanent smile plastered to my face and I have had comments about that - I was also asked out to dinner by a guy I met on the water who is here on vacation but declined. Also continuing to go for a short jog most days and eat extremely healthy. After D-day I must have lost about 20 pounds (due 100% to shock - I could not put food in my mouth) and I have kept every pound off and feel amazing about that.

I've also done some exposing. Today though I called someone to expose after reading that WH was going to see a movie with this guy - and the guy left his phone number on WH's skype which I have access to, so I called it. His wife answered and I exposed to her - but it turns out that her H had an affair for 3 years ending about 3 years ago and she thinks he is probably/possibly still cheating on her. But it was absolutely wonderful to speak to her all about it... even though exposing to her H clearly wasn't going to help my case.

Anyway, RHW, I am going to read and re-read your above message and give it some serious thought - do some serious soul searching. I will probably ask you more about how to go about doing this. And as always, thanks!

Q

Catperson, what are you trying to say? Sorry it is late and I am not quite sure I understand.

My WH has mentioned within the last month that when we first met (at work) our boss introduced someone to WH and pointed to me and said "can you believe HE is with HER?" with the meaning that WH was ugly and I was pretty I presume - I never knew this happened or that WH felt that I was in any way better or better looking than him. But now I do get a lot of comments from him about how much 'better' I am than him (but in a somewhat sarcastic tone - "yeah Q, you are better than me, we all know you are better than me - I smoke, you don't, you're just miss perfect". And he gives me those comments in the usual foggy conversations about why we are no good for one another.

comments....

[quote=qwertyuiop
...I am not sure I can do this. It will take a huge amount of soul searching on my part...I have nearly no respect for him and am having a very hard time listening to what he has to say.
...how do I just simply change how I perceive him when he IS behaving childishly?
...Now he has mentioned at least 3 times that he was going crazy that week and was absolutely in a terrible mood because he had not heard from me. I am a bit mad at myself that I went back to plan A.
quote]

Hi Q,

It is ALWAYS incumbent on the BS to do some serious soul searching. Always. The state of the marriage pre-A is a result of what both partners have done/failed to do. The A is 100% his. The marriage is/was 50% YOU, the good and the bad elements of you.

It's nice to think we don't HAVE any important flaws, but that head-in-the-sand approach blocks our own personal growth. (I'm not preaching here--I had to swallow this painful lesson in humility after my H's A. I got off my high horse only when I opened myself to some of HIS thoughts about me. My justifications that everybody saw me like I saw me, except him, so HE had to be wrong were bull****.)

Viewing your WH as a naughty little boy is not helpful, even when he behaves like one. You can't fix him or change him.

Far more useful to turn it around and look at YOU. HE perceives YOU as "little miss perfect," superior, and yes, perhaps emasculating. Now, THAT you can work with, even if you don't agree with it. From HIS perspective, it's TRUE, just as from your perspective, HE'S a naughty child. See the truth in it. It's there someplace, and it's the only thing you have to work with if you hope to avoid living it out again--with him or with someone else. It's insidious the way we are blind to our own flaws. I couldn't see my own till I looked through my H's eyes. Looked without defending. Looked in humility. Very painful. I was more comfortable being angry, blaming, righteous.

In one of my favorite books, Passionate Marriage, the author states that marriage is a "people-growing machine." He calls marriage "an elegant process" that "puts us in the crucible" to force personal growth. Never heard anybody say it better.

As for how you can "just simply change how I perceive him when he IS behaving childishly," you're right. It's not a switch you can turn off and on in your head.

You will only change how you perceive him when you get OFF of him and all that's wrong with HIM, and turn the spotlight on yourself. MUCH harder, and SO much less self-aggrandizing. Move your thoughts off how bad, wrong, inferior, stupid HE is. Stop thinking about those things. Hasn't gotten you anywhere. Try to shift your perception of yourself to see whatever truth there is in HIS perception of you. My FWH called ME "little miss perfect" too, and it knocked my socks off. But it began a period of introspection that showed me the insidious ways in which my arrogance played itself out. Huge revelations for me. Useful, too.

As for him telling you he was out of sorts and "crazy" because he'd not heard from you Christmas week, take that for what it is. HIS stuff. Don't you think that, even as he's focused on the fact that you went dark, he's finding fault with YOUR behavior, just as you've done with him? Maybe it means he actually CARES. Maybe it means it's threatening his cake-eating mode. But it's HIS stuff. HE has to work through it, but you can't make him do it.

I hope I don't sound like I'm preaching, Q. This lesson was pivotal for me, and you seem to be suffering from the same delusions as I was. So hard to face, but very rewarding in the end.

Blessings,

RHW