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Unfortunately in the United Kingdom custody invariably goes to the mother. Only where there are things such as drug abuse/ alcoholism/ criminal behaviour / abuse of the child would I have a chance of custody. My lawyer advises me that it would be a waste of time and money trying, I'm sorry to say.


Me BH 53
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K,
My suggestions that you do your best plan A does not in anyway mean you should accept her behaviour. I know its a very fine line but you need to establish boundaries and let her know in no uncertain terms that it is NOT acceptable for her to contact him in front of you or out in the open. This is not acceptable behavior for your son to see his mother disrespecting his father.

You "I want to be married to my wife and I am learning new tools and ways to make our marriage great. I will do everything I can to be the best husband to you. But your behavior is unacceptable and I will not tolerate another person in our marriage. If you leave you can expect no support from me for your bills, food, gas, etc. except what a court may order."

Get a new attorney. One with balls. Then grow some of your own balls. Sorry for the harshness as I know the pain you are in but you cannot let her walk all over you. Keep reading on here as to how to set boundaries and state them without LBing. Difficult to do but it can be done.

Have you done all the things you can like EXPOSING at her work, to OM's family, etc. Protecting your checkbook and savings.

Stand for your wife and marriage but against adultry with actions.



God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Quote
She has stated that she does not want a divorce at the moment even though she is moving out.
K,
This is her cake eating and fence sitting. Calmly state your boundaries to her clearly NOW. She has warmed to you because you stopped LBing. But don't let her think everything is acceptable to you.

Quote
our relationship is more honest now in that I know and she knows I know that she is in daily contact with the OM, i.e. it is in the open.
Calmly state your anger when you see this happening. But get angry. FIGHT!

Quote
At the moment I still feel it is better for my son to be with his mother. She has always been an excellent mother and I have no worries there.
Its is NOT better that your son be exposed to OM, or that he see his mother betraying his father. It is not better that he be with his mother for maternal reasons. It is better he see how a principled, centered person acts in a marriage standing up for what is right vs. wrong. She is wrong!
Quote
I do of course have concern about the OM interacting with my son in their new environment.

OM is enemy. A should be destroyed at most any cost. She is destroying marriage with A. You destroy A with great actions towards her and tools like exposure.

Quote
However, I also fear the affect that the separation will have on my son. i am reading up on potential affects and how to handle them.

This sounds like preparing for defeat. Stop reading and start acting to save marriage and destroy A with exposure.

Quote
My WW merely says that if we are loving and caring towards him and that we remain friends then he will be fine.

You will not be friends. You most certainly will not be during plan B. You will be unreachable and have zero communincation with her.

Quote
She does not seem to appreciate the potentially damaging affects our separation will have on him.

Of course she doesn't. This is the fog of A.

Quote
I guess this will be part of the exposure tactic. We intend to inform our son at the weekend.

Do not be a willing or complacent participant in this. You expose to son first and alone. You state the facts clearly so she cannot spin this to her advantage. Do not hold back with son now. He feels the truth and you being an accepting party to her moving out and son moving in with her demostrates all the wrong messages to son likes its ok to abandon your marriage and shack up with OM whenever feelings dictate.

Quote
My WW seems to think that much will continue as normal and she fully expects to visit me regularly for a chat and has said that I have will have full access to my son.

Do not allow things to continue as normal. They are not normal. State it to her. "Spouse, I know you hope that things between us will be ok but our relationship will NOT be normal if you leave our home with our son. I am standing for our marriage and our family and you are destroying it by being with OM."

Quote
I still feel that I would be acting aa bit like the OM i.e. they are together and I become the OM. Can someone put me straight on this? I assume that it is best to have no contact with OM.

You will have no contact with either of them in plan B. The when for plan B is another topic.

But think of this as a war. You have to match her tactics. Be where she is act in many regards. She is planning to move out. After she does you might find a new flat too. She is unsure about M, whoa whadduknow so are you since she has hurt you so much. But you still treat her with love and kindness, just tell her and state your concerns, feelings, hurt, pain.

Only you can stand for your marriage right now. She is lost and broken. You are not. Only you can help her see what is really happening. OM is feeding her fog. You must be the lighthouse to bring her home from stormy feelings and prevent another family tossed on the the breakers.

Last edited by bigpicture; 01/07/09 01:19 PM. Reason: to add balls!

God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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Originally Posted by kangkok
Unfortunately in the United Kingdom custody invariably goes to the mother. Only where there are things such as drug abuse/ alcoholism/ criminal behaviour / abuse of the child would I have a chance of custody. My lawyer advises me that it would be a waste of time and money trying, I'm sorry to say.

I think you're missing my point, and you're missing the bigger picture.

Yes, it will cost money. That's what your WW wants to AVOID. She wants everything to be EASY. Why do you think she's not filing for D? The cost, and the possible embarrassment too (I believe in the UK you can file for cause, e.g. "adultery"). So what should your response be? MAKE it as difficult and expensive as possible for her to live in her fantasy!

My suggestion would be to see if you can get some kind of restraining order in place so your child cannot be removed from your home without your permission. Let your WW have to fight that out in court. Yes, she might eventually win, but at least you'll be applying quite a bit of pressure to her fantasy of her just being able to leave and everything will be nice and easy! Also, as soon as she moves out, consider responding with filing for D with adultery as the cause, and naming the OM in the filing. And make sure EVERYBODY knows what you're doing and why.

Finally, do NOT telegraph any plans that you do make to your WW. She's not your friend now, and she's focused only on her interests, not yours. She'll likely turn on you in a heartbeat if she thinks it is in her best interest.


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K,
this post below is from pomdbd3 in the thread of lifeduece. It is perfect for you.

Quote
Wife Left Me 8 Days Before Christmas [Re: Mr. Goodstuff]
pomdbd3 pomdbd3
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Guys,

I understand the fear that grips you into inaction. It's very real. It keeps you from "upsetting" your WW.

SHE CHEATED ON YOU! You have every right to not just be mad, but to be outraged!

So don't fear the WW's anger. She faulted you.

It's that simple. There's nothing in the world which justifies her cheating. NOTHING!

She'll say you were a bad husband and then list the reasons. Great. So what. It still doesn't justify her getting in bed with another man.

So take a look at the different threads of the different men on this board who have been betrayed. Some have recovered their marriages. Some haven't.

But those that have done well are the ones who took action. They're the ones who overcame the fear of their WW and did things they needed to do to end the affairs or protect their rights as a father.

The WW has a delusion in her head that she will stay friends with you if you guys divorce.

It's a delusion based on the idea that you guys will always have feelings for them.

You won't. They go away. And part of that involves the grief process, which has a nasty part to it called the anger stage.

And it's a real doozy.

I think you go through it regardless of whether or not you recover your marriage and there's plenty of men on here who could back me up on that.

You see, your marriage is over. It's dead. It was destroyed, as you knew it, by your cheating wife.

Sure, you contributed to the circumstances that led to the infidelity, but SHE is the one who went outside the marriage.

Your marriage as you knew it is dead and gone and over. That involves a grieving process. That will involve anger on your part whether you stay together or not.

So what do you do right now?

You have to find a way to be totally cool. Think Bruce Lee, James Bond, Clint Eastwood. They are cool men who don't get riled up about things, but they take action.

And they do it in a way that is controlled and cool.

That's what you need to do.

Item number one is exposure. Expose to your family and friends.

It doesn't have to be ugly. Very simple, "I just found out WW is having an affair. I want to save my marriage and ask for your support in doing this."

Done. All that needs to be said is said. You may wish to throw in the ID of the man if it's someone those people know.

You then have to make it very clear, absolutely crystal clear without a doubt in her mind that you're serious, that you will take the steps necessary to secure your rights as a father. 50/50 is a minimum and you will pursue more than that. She's not fit as a mother in a wayward state and you won't allow your children to be around OM or an unrepentant adulterer.

Eliminate the fantasy of "he'll get over it. We'll be friends. He can see the kids when I say it's ok for him to do so and he'll be ok with that."

You see, the only hope of recovering your marriage is to destroy the fantasy of what she pictures her exit from the marriage to be.

It won't be easy. It won't be "I have gotten rid of him, but everything else stays the same."

Absolutely not!

You're a man who is a father and deserves to be involved in your children's lives.

Consider me to be your five alarm fire that is warning you that inaction and fear of your WW's anger will hurt your rights as a father.

Those kids need to come to your house NOW! They are your children and you will not tolerate having them taken from your life.

The next step to what you need to do is get a lawyer and have a temporary custody order drawn up. This doesn't mean you're divorcing. It means you're securing your rights as a father.

Now, the hard part:

Plan A. Read up on this and implement it.

Incorporate the 180. Google "The 180 and infidelity" and read up on it. It's a great way to implement Plan A.

http://survivinginfidelity.com/faq_bs.asp#FAQ11

The greatest chance to recover anything, either your marriage, or your time with your kids, is to accept that you have already lost it all. Accepting that you've lost everything gives you the freedom to do anything.

Let me be clear, you HAVE lost everything. Your marriage as you knew it is gone. Your rights as a father are in grave danger.

Your wife is no longer the woman you knew and fell in love with.

If she comes back you'll be reconstructing a new marriage that is different than the one you just had. That means that your images of your old marriage are gone. It can NEVER be that way again.

But that's part of the recovery process. You don't want the old marriage back. The old way led to the broken state that contributed to the infidelity.

You want a new and improved marriage OR to recover with your rights as a father are intact while she rots in her infidelity festered wayward mindset and life.

Yes, recovery can be something you go through alone.

Take hope in knowing that those of us here who didn't recover our marriages were in your shoes and just as devastated. Some of us even sank to the depths of despair. Many of us have been or currently are in therapy. A few of us even had to go to the hospital while we recovered.

It can't get much lower than being in a psych ward because you're a disfunctional man.

But there is hope, even in not recovering your marriage.

The stories of those who have had a personal recovery are on this board and aren't hard to find.

I'm not going to sugar coat it. It's a painful journey no matter which path you follow. But you have to decide which way you'll go down that path. Will you be dragged along by you WW and end up in terrible shape because of inaction and fear on your part or will you take action and control of your life?

YOU control your life, not your WW.

That means you don't have to settle for how she's treating you and it certainly means you stand up for your rights as a father.

Don't fear inaction because courts tend to favor moms. They favor moms who have men who aren't prepared or who walk away. They are otherwise very fair, especially to men who show that they are good men who love their kids.

So the secret is to take action.


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I did not see if exposure has been done yet.

Has it?

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big picture and others,
Thanks for your continuing support and help.
Let me try to address each of the arising issues. i don't know how to use the quote feature so please forgive my copy and paste method.

This is her cake eating and fence sitting. Calmly state your boundaries to her clearly NOW. She has warmed to you because you stopped LBing. But don't let her think everything is acceptable to you
Very much understood and will be taking action today.

she is in daily contact with the OM, i.e. it is in the open.
She does not do this in front of me as I asked her not to. I have expressed my displeasure with any contact.

Its is NOT better that your son be exposed to OM, or that he see his mother betraying his father. It is not better that he be with his mother for maternal reasons. It is better he see how a principled, centered person acts in a marriage standing up for what is right vs. wrong. She is wrong!
I very much agree. I do not want OM to bring up my son. I was just pointing out that as a mother she is good. She knows I don't like the idea.

OM is enemy. A should be destroyed at most any cost. She is destroying marriage with A. You destroy A with great actions towards her and tools like exposure
Understood

This sounds like preparing for defeat. Stop reading and start acting to save marriage and destroy A with exposure
No, not at all preparing for defeat, just preparing for a situation that may exist soon. Don't worry I am fighting.

You will not be friends. You most certainly will not be during plan B. You will be unreachable and have zero communincation with her
Understood and have told her that friendship will not be possible in the long term. Understand no contact in plan B but I am at early stage of plan A

Do not be a willing or complacent participant in this. You expose to son first and alone. You state the facts clearly so she cannot spin this to her advantage. Do not hold back with son now. He feels the truth and you being an accepting party to her moving out and son moving in with her demostrates all the wrong messages to son likes its ok to abandon your marriage and shack up with OM whenever feelings dictate.
OK, agree. I will be talking to my son first.

Do not allow things to continue as normal. They are not normal. State it to her. "Spouse, I know you hope that things between us will be ok but our relationship will NOT be normal if you leave our home with our son. I am standing for our marriage and our family and you are destroying it by being with OM." Very much agree and will take this action tonight.

Exposing
My parents are not alive and neither are the parents of the OM.
WW mother knows and although on my side is a weak person and advises her daughter to 'make her own decision'. WW father knows but is indifferent. WW closest work colleague knows. Have informed school today and told other parents at school of the A. Have told childminder today. My brother and his family know and support me. Will be informing mutual friends soon. OM has 3 part time jobs, in two of which he is self employed and alone so nobody to expose to. Don't know how to contact people in his third job. OM may have family but don't know and have no idea of addresses, even his. OM divorced at least 10 years ago. OM has no children

Law
Have spoken to different lawyer and to two support groups for fathers in UK. All confirm no chance of keeping son at my home - law totally in favour of mothers except in extraordinary circumstances. Nevertheless will tell WW that I will fight for custody.

Last edited by kangkok; 01/08/09 06:28 AM.

Me BH 53
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D-Day 10/5/2008
PlanA 01/05/2009
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You "I want to be married to my wife and I am learning new tools and ways to make our marriage great. I will do everything I can to be the best husband to you. But your behavior is unacceptable and I will not tolerate another person in our marriage. If you leave you can expect no support from me for your bills, food, gas, etc. except what a court may order."
[i][i]Done
[/i]

Get a new attorney. One with balls. Then grow some of your own balls. Sorry for the harshness as I know the pain you are in but you cannot let her walk all over you. Keep reading on here as to how to set boundaries and state them without LBing. Difficult to do but it can be done.
See previous post

Have you done all the things you can like EXPOSING at her work, to OM's family, etc.
See previous post

Protecting your checkbook and savings.[/i]
Done


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Keep it up Kang! We are with you! We have your back! We are there to support you and be a sounding board!



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Originally Posted by kangkok
My parents are not alive and neither are the parents of the OM.
WW mother knows and although on my side is a weak person and advises her daughter to 'make her own decision'. WW father knows but is indifferent. WW closest work colleague knows. Have informed school today and told other parents at school of the A. Have told childminder today. My brother and his family know and support me. Will be informing mutual friends soon.

This looks spectacular, well done!
I do have one question. How did WW's father find out, and her work colleague? Also how did your brother and his family find out?

The reason I ask is if they found out from her, they likely were not given the whole true story. They may have been told that WW and OM are just good friends and that you're suspicious, angry, and controlling. Or they may have been told that you and WW are separated and that you're not interested in staying married. They need to hear it from you, that OM and WW are involved in an A, and that you are determined to repair the marriage and improve yourself.

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turtlehead
WW father informed by me. My brother and his family informed by me (and had some long discussions with my sister-in-law who I know is much admired by WW). Work colleague told by WW but since then I have emailed her to make sure she knew my side.


Me BH 53
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K,

She has 5 years with OM but…

Quote
Also she says that she has doubts about the OM (he has a very low income, they have different tastes and interests, she doesn't know how he will get on with our son).

She probably only feels sure about moving in with him when he is telling her everything will be ok. In her own words she is unsure and has doubts. Pick him apart. Great marriages mean spending time together per Harley at least 15 hours per week. You say he works 3 part time jobs. Trust me that will affect their relationship big time. And his income is squat!?!

What about this question for her??

“Honey, if I found a professional, proven, plan that has helped 1000's of other couples have a great marriage would you consider looking at that plan with me?” Then give her HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS book by Dr Harley. Meanwhile you read SAA.

Maybe a letter to reiterate where you know you failed and how with new MBer tools you will work to correct those failings so that your past will not be your future.

BUT you keep whistling Dixie as you feed her reality. “Wow I really hope we get to try these new things in our marriage because its powerful stuff. If not I know another woman is going to catch a great person because of all the things I have learned.”

Chin up, positive outlook, self confidence. Be especially positive when talking to her. You be that much better than POS OM. That way she thinks twice about it when she talks to him and he just bitches about his day, demands things and has no money to wine and dine her!!

I just keep coming at this from the perspective of you have to keep putting in what you want out. If you want forgiveness for your failures, forgive. Own them and be responsible to take actions to correct them. You want open and honest, be that to her. You want deposits in your love bank. You keep making them. The bible says agape love never goes unrewarded!

Quote
I have hope because she says she still loves me ('but in a different way' i.e. let us be friends)

Ignore what she says 99% of the time. It is fog.

K, what does another 6 months of mental torture mean from her letter?? Plz elaborate.
Quote
I am not sure if it is good or bad thing to do but I cannot stay with you for another 6 months and have another 6 month of mental torture.

Do you see her indecision again!!! She is not sure if it is good or bad. Her quote!! The OM is feeding her fog. You feed a great marriage. Do you really think OM is any different than all of us regular Joes?? Of course not. Its just that she was vulnerable because you didn’t know how to relate to her emotional world and main ENs. Now you do know and now you are that much better than him. She can’t avoid those facts but in the fog she cannot see it. Be patient and loving.

A sophisticated way to think of this is to Plan A your wife, but plan B your WW. “Honey, I thought it would be great if we could spend some quality time together at dinner but if you speak to OM at all it will be very upsetting to me.”


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K,what about this part??

Quote
Send communication to other man that says

Please know that I will do whatever it takes to save my marriage for the sake of my wife and my beautiful 8 yr old son who we both adore. Nothing will stop me from achieving this.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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My WW seems to have a lot of indecision also. She is out of the house and sees the OM when she doesn't have our boys. She knows about this website, but how can I find her EN's and fill them if she is seeing the OM???

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Yeah I realise the OM 3 part time jobs and low income give them problems.
Yeah I see her wavering and uncertainty about OM.
This gives me much hope and I think if/when they live together their problems will grow.

You say Honey, if I found a professional, proven, plan that has helped 1000's of other couples have a great marriage would you consider looking at that plan with me?” Then give her HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS book by Dr Harley. Meanwhile you read SAA.This I will try.

You asked K, what does another 6 months of mental torture mean from her letter?? Plz elaborate. It refers to angry outburts such as at Christmas when we had been through what I thought was the start of a recovery process and she was in NC. Learned she was continuing A with him. Lost my temper, slagged her off etc. (All this before I had discovered MB so I do realise this was a big LB and regret the outburst). To put another way she has said that when coming home she does not know if I will be friendly or angry. I have now stopped any verbal abuse but is it too late?


Me BH 53
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I like this idea but I have never been in contact with OM. Will consider


Me BH 53
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Married 04/2001
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D-Day 10/5/2008
PlanA 01/05/2009
PlanB 02/02/2009
tiredtwo #2189639 01/08/09 11:29 AM
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Simple.

"Spouse, I know things between us are uncertain but I would really like to learn more about what I should have been doing to have a great marriage. Would you take a minute to fill out this questionnaire from MarriageBuilders??"

Also FT, you may want to read HNHN and The 5 Languages of Love by Gary Chapman. I feel "5" is much easier to comprehend and if you review your wifes top complaints it should not be very difficult to figure out what her top needs are.

The 5 languages from Dr. Chapman are: quality time, physical touch, domestic support, gifts, and words of affirmation.

http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/30sec.html#love

When you can see her you do whatever you can for her needs without LBing or making demands. Don't try to teach. The mode you are in FT is dating. You need to win her back. You do that by being the best, intriguing, most self confident loving person when with her. Her- "Where did you get that bandage on your arm??" "I donated blood today"

You "I'm going down to volunteer some time at the food pantry. wanna help??"

Her "Where are you going with those groceries?" "The lady down the street is restricted from driving so I thought I would help her out."

See what I mean. Do things that catch her off guard. Look like a hero!!


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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You know it is never too late. Remember my post about a strong Plan A??

Change is possible and real. Change will be noticed but may go unacknowledged by WS. Change will be acknowledged but not be trusted by WS. Press on. Demonstrate your changes and how you can meet WS ENs, don't state them. Walk the (positive) walk. State your LBers, don't demonstrate them. Don't walk the (negative) talk.


God's goal for marriage: Become ONE! How? MBer methods.
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bigpicture #2189937 01/08/09 05:54 PM
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Just updating after today's events.

How about these two for WW being uncertain about OM. For financial reasons I have considered taking in tenants if/when WW leaves. She said 'don't rent out for more than 6 months, I might need to be a tenant'. Hope my reply of 'you might not fit my criteria', said jokingly, was OK. Later she said 'I don't know where I am emotionally and I have told OM the same. I don't feel romantic to anyone at the moment'.

She continues to deny any potential problems for our son if she leaves.

I did the ' I have a professional plan.....' as suggested by bigpicture.

I told her that we may be friends at the moment but that is a state that could not possibly continue.

I said I was considering challenging for custody of our son both now and if things reach a D.

I told her that I will fight on to develop a new successful marriage with her and use any technique at my disposal.

All this I managed to do calmly yet firmly. Did I do OK?

During our conversation I found out that the OM knows someone I do so another exposure opportunity.

Still a little concerned about timescale. I have only just begun plan A but some seem to imply I should move to plan B soon, especially if she moves out. To me it seems that plan B would be many months away. I unnderstand that many actions allow her cake eating and enable the affair but is it not right to give plan A some time before moving on (especially since I envisage their happy world disintegrating once they live together).

Finally I hated her asking me to comment upon two sets of furniture that WW and OM are considering buying for their new home. Can't believe her cheek. I listened but said none of this is to do with me. Was that the correct response?

Sometimes I wish the conversation could be stopped for 10 minutes whilst I construct the best reply in my head. Thinking of the right thing to say on the hoof is hard.

Finally she went into a silent depressive mood which lasted the remainder of the evening - about two hours. She was brooding.

Any comments welcome.


Me BH 53
WW 35
Married 04/2001
S 6
D-Day 10/5/2008
PlanA 01/05/2009
PlanB 02/02/2009
kangkok #2189950 01/08/09 06:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 34
K
Member
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K Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 34
A further point.

Leading on from the furniture discussion my WW said I should come in and look around her new house. I was flabbergasted but replied that although I would like to see my son's new room it would be inappropriate for me to go into her new home and that I would feel uncomfortable. She replied that she was not married to OM, that she was sharing the new accomodation and had every right to invite who she liked in and that she had told OM that I would be visiting. All of this without OM present.

I feel that I would be uncomfortable because I would be acting like the OM - i.e. behaving like a person who doesn't care about other people and their relationships. On reflection, however, she is still my wife and I am sure he would hate to know I visit and it would undermine their relationship and contribute to busting up their A.

Comments? Advice?


Me BH 53
WW 35
Married 04/2001
S 6
D-Day 10/5/2008
PlanA 01/05/2009
PlanB 02/02/2009
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