Aw... that's much worse than I'd hoped. I'm so sorry.


This sounds like he blames other people and outward events/circumstances instead of taking responsibility for himself. I guess he doesn't see the connection between your actions and your opportunities? I hope he isn't saying you only get these opportunities because you're a woman!

Thanks for adding more details. I can see why it's important to come up with some sort of POJA. I don't have any suggestions right now, maybe someone else does.

Jayne, I'm happy that you're talking to Steve Tuesday. What an amazing gift to give your kids, a great marriage and happy home life. They are so young. They can see many years of happiness while they grow up

I would love to see you take 15 hours UA time and 15 hours FC time to do both relaxing and fun things with your family. I hear you that your work folks are like a family, too. Do any have young kids? Maybe some good buddies for FC time, getting all the kids together? What do you think?

Are you better from your cold? Did you get any time off for the holidays?

Hi ears!

Welcome back. How was your trip? I read the part you wrote on your thread, but was there some good FC time as well?


I feel like I'm failing miserably in that regard. I am not the calm cool loving gentle mother who kisses scraped knees, etc. I feel like I'm doing a really rotten job. I feel like I ned more than just a marriage coach, I also need a how-to-be-a-good-mother coach. Maybe like an IC, but I never followed up on that one I started with before we moved - I needed ICU for my (then) current situation (job, coping with stress and people) and she wanted to talk about my mother. I never used all the sessions I paid for. Anyway, I just have so many things I wish I could do over, as far as mothering...

Hey, why don't the Harleys have a section of this site devoted to improving parenting skills? They could call it "Family Builders" or "Children Builders" or maybe "Parent Builders."


We did watch a movie last night, "The Hours". H picked it up because he remembered I'd said once I wanted to see it. He wasn't sure if I had seen it - I had borrowed it once at a hotel (eiher I was on a business trip alone, or H had gone to sleep before me). But I had slept through most of it, because the only thing I remembered was the very beginning and the very end. So it was as if it was brand new!

I found out about a dinner theatre near here, and asked him if he'd like to go, and he said yes. I asked if he'd like me to arrange a babysitter, and was this something he'd enjoy or was he just humoring me, and he said he would like it. So that's something too!


Hmmm... work folks are like family? I wonder... was that from something I said? I think what I meant was, our work (since H and I are in the same line of work) is a big part of our family. Um, let me rephrase... in our traditional nuclear ( ) family, the work that we parents do permeates our family activities. It's sorta like a family-run restaurant or family-run business, KWIM?


I think I ended up with a mild case of the flu or something. It was bizarre, I had really severe abdominal pains and was feverish for a few days, spent most of the day in bed, etc. Just when I decided I'd make an appointment the next morning, it started getting better.

I'm still gonna set up dr's appointments for check-ups for all of us, get set up with dr's dentists, etc. Tools, ya know?

The kids go back to school Monday, but I get one more week off I think. There's things I need to do work-related in the meantime though.

Jayne, the trip was SO cool, all about the FC. We went to Universal Studios and had days at the pool, too. We split into two groups - the roller coaster ones went with the dads, and the show watching ones went with the moms. We met for meals and the stuff we all wanted to see.

Jayne, I know that rotten-mother feeling. Is it telling you you're ready to step up your game Do you like to read? Harley has HNHN for Parents, and that's a great book. It's funny you mention the parenting, because I'm starting it tonight again for the new year. I'm going to have a teen soon The other AMAZING book, LA recommended, is between Parent and Child. Oh my goodness. It's about being patient and kind to your kids, but applies everywhere, like our self-talk. Reading it is so soothing, like entering this calming world where kids aren't doing wrong things, they are curious little folks finding their way in the world with their parents gentle guidance and approval.

LOL, Jayne, "The Hours." It came out one weekend where I'd been successful moving mountains to get a sitter so we could have a date night. I told H how Oprah highly recommended this movie, and he was game. Well, it turned out so depressing, we walked out ready to slit our wrists. H mostly picks out the movies since then

I get it, the work itself permeates the home life, not the work folks. H is a CPA, and works from home late past the kids' bedtime every night for like a month at a time when they have deadlines. Is that what you mean?

Oh man! I have been saying that for weeks!!!!!!!!!

And to be honest, it sounds like you spend way more time doing stuff with your kids that I did/do. Besides, have I ever sounded like a "the calm cool loving gentle mother who kisses scraped knees, etc."
maybe thats why my D has gone wayward
Actually I have been reading T2LDD thread and thinking maybe it would be good to ahve a forum for the children affected by the stuff talked about on MB. A place where they can be heard.

[/TJ]

I'm glad there were good things about the trip! It sounds great... I love Florida... (I just now had to go in and change the password on my cell phone account. The security question was "What's your favorite vacation spot?" ) My sister is on the gulf side for New Year's.


Hmmm, I could certainly see that it would ordinarily depress me. I'm not sure why it didn't this time. For one thing, I was just enjoying the whole atmosphere of the thing... watching Nicole Kidman's body language, how her dress made her look frumpy in an artistic way, how physically affectionate she was with her sister but how awkward she was with the kids... same with Meryl Streep and the other woman, watching their body language and how it reflected that time period... And how Meryl Streep got up and was doing all those *activities*, taking care of her friend, moving around, *doing* stuff, as opposed to the other women... and the things like, the food being thrown away, the flowers being bought, etc., in all three time periods... I guess I paid less attention to the plot because I had *sorta* seen it before. I was still shocked when that other woman came to visit Meryl Streep (I don't wanna give too much away).


You got it!

LOL I think maybe I shoulda been Italian. I'm thinking "Moonstruck" or "I Love You To Death" sort of family - not quiet and gentle, but loud and hectic but still loving.

My WXH's mom is Italian, Sicilian actually, 1st-generation in the U.S. But she was quiet and gentle.

I want to get that HNHN for Parents. I saw it in the bookstore and wondered if anyone else had read it and what they thought of it.

Yes I was thinking the same thing when reading T2LDD's thread. Maybe a new board just for kids? (Well of course parents can go there too! Monitoring would be important. But it would be a place where the threads of all the children affected would be grouped, so they could more easily find each other and talk to each other.)

Yeah, the one thing that would worry me is anytime you get a group of kids on a public forum there's the creepies to watch out for

Well there's a glitch in the plans to talk to Steve Tuesday morning. I had forgotten that there's this meeting in another city that either me or H or both needs to go to. H just told me that he RSVP'ed that I would go, since my classes haven't started yet. I'm not sure how early I'd have to leave, but there's a big chance I'll be calling in on my cell phone while driving :MrEEk: which means prolly H won't call in... unless we do a 3-way...

Maybe I can get it changed to Wednesday morning. I'll call and ask tomorrow morning.

Ummm, no!

Did you get something organised?

Ah, thanks for reminding me! We rescheduled for tomorrow. When asked if he will participate, H says "We'll see." Which often means "No, but I don't want to come out and say no." But, sometimes it means yes. So we'll see.

Jayners,

I saw your post on another thread..."even when you're not talking to me"...

and in reply I will say...

how do you know I'm not talking you...

:::insert wiggling eyebrows mysteriously:::

And in reply to your H's "we'll see", assert.

"Okay, so I hear you saying I won't know what you'll do until you do it, is that correct?"

Sort reality from expectation.

Affirms...you really don't know (promised or not) what we'll do until we get there. Most of what I want to know from my DH is what his hopes, expectations, fears, thoughts really are...

and I used to only want to extract promises so I could live in the future instead of the present.

LOL

You do the best with what you know and leave room in your plans for God to intervene and shock ya.



I don't stop talking to you...I just stop using your name.

LA

LOL!

You don't know the image that brings to my mind... Somehow or other, both our sons have this ability to wiggle their eyebrows in a certain way... one up and the other down... in a real funny and cute smirk or "Hmmm???" type look. Maybe like Spock. We don't know where they got it. But when I read what you wrote, I just picture them doing that!

Thanks for the reminder that I can respond to his "We'll see" in a way that is open, and that doesn't play these little guessing games. I was trying to say something like, "Okay, so that really means you don't want to do it, right?" but that wasn't helping. To say "So I won't know what you'll do until you do it..." is a great way to shed light on the reality of his "We'll see" comment.

Now, I probably need some 2x4s about yesterday.I'm not sure what's wrong with me, but I think I was trying to pick a fight with my H. I started out feeling pretty good about things... but then I was wondering if I'd have anything to talk to Steve about... so in a way, I started concentrating on the bad instead of the good. How warped is that? Sorta the opposite of what calling the Harleys is supposed to be for, huh?

What are you, psychic?



Yes, that's exactly what I was doing...and yes, my sons do it also...independent eyebrows. lol

They get it from their mother.

About yesterday...do you think or do you know you wanted to picked a fight with your H? Only you know. Would you consider saying the words instead of choosing the action?

"I want to pick a fight with you right now. I'm focusing on our counseling call and what I don't like is pouring through my mind, not all that I love in our marriage."

State, don't demonstrate. Speak and let the response go...listen to it...ask for his support, acknowledgment...awareness of where you are at...even to take a moment with you as you figure out why you're feeling feisty or aggressive. Makes him your teammate, doesn't it?

Sometimes at the heart of it, we have a basic "I want you to react like me" to be in anticipation, ontop of whatever it is coming up and your own fears. Because we choose our spouses because they didn't react like we did.



Counterbalances. Then we hate them for it.

But we really don't, 'k?

Kudos on not sneaking a DJ into your listen and repeat. Great catch. When you listen and repeat with filter, you gotta own your own filter..."When you've said 'we'll see' in the past, I have permitted myself to assume that was your code meaning you didn't want to do whatever it was and was only agreeing to be okay right then. I feel shame and guilt for doing that to you, my best friend and partner. I have no idea what we'll see really means, because I know I may not see what you see when we get there."

Focus is on you...not the good or the bad...as you see it. Check your perceptions, your choices in them...to see if you're seeking in your heart the issues you most want to discuss, or if you're true goal is to get SH to change your H, or for your H to react the way you want him to (feel fear, respect, focus, desire, whatever).

Sounds like you were signalling yourself to not dwell on a single event, word, sentence, action...as if you wanted to take in what was separately from your labels of good or bad...maybe what you enjoy in your marriage and what love busts for you.

Then again, you might be doing the "we'll see" yourself...instead of focusing on what you really see as your own.

Keep your focus within your power...embrace your limits...don't go into the future, even a day...that part is real of what your H said...we won't know until we get there...we can commit to actions before, not to what we'll feel...

It's an act of love to say, "I feel like picking a fight with you right now" and then why...shows your focus, what you're tracing and it's an act of intimacy. Sometimes, conflict is when we most feel connected, if our DJ is that's the only time our spouses are honest. Check your own sneaky beliefs.



LA

I don't know what's wrong with me.

What do you mean?

A couple of days ago I was feeling good about things in general, not necessarily about the M, but I wasn't feeling particularly bad about the M. But then as the appt with Steve approached, I started wondering what I would talk about, and why I should talk to him when I'm feeling ok about things... so I started thinking about how I don't feel *connected*, I don't feel close to H, I don't feel loved and I don't feel loving. I sorta felt like I'd been about to go into that mode where I assume everything is good just cus nothing bad has happened in awhile, so I focused on putting up ... boundaries? no, more like walls, defenses...

So now, from focusing on the bad, I feel extremely unloving toward H. And for some reason he's been in a fairly good mood the past few days.

And I don't even know what I want, as far as what ENs I'd want him to meet. I don't want any LB$ deposits, I feel like I've frozen his acct.

What I *really* would like would be for him to become one of those H's who say, "OMG I never realized she felt that way! I wish I'd known, I wish I'd listened, I'm listening now." But guys never say such things unless their W actually leaves. And I don't want to leave, that wouldn't be better.

I think it was partly a defensive move, to keep my wall up rather than repeating the previous pattern of thinking everything's better because he is pleasant and tells a few jokes...


Thanks! After reading what you wrote, that's precisely what I did a couple hours ago!


I didn't get so far as asking for his support. I told him I felt like picking a fight (I said it pleasantly enough, just letting him know; not attacking him). I craved to talk about how his talk with Steve had gone this morning, and if he would do the ENQ and LBQ like Steve suggested. He wanted to talk about work.

I think I may have realized something. He likes to talk about work. But it gets me stressed, because it usually reminds me of more things I would have liked to accomplish; but when I'm at home, it's because I want to take a break from work.

Maybe he feels connected when he talks to me about work? I've sometimes complained that he doesn't talk to me even about work. So tonight I listened. And I noticed that I was getting more and more stressed, because he was talking about several trips that he needs to make (one of which I sorta should have planned to attend as well) and they are potentially conflicting with DSs's b'day party. I was getting stressed about being left here alone to cope with planning the party etc., and about the emails I hadn't answered including about trips, etc. But I kept listening. I hope that was a LB$ deposit.

But I notice that for me it had the opposite effect from feeling connected. Instead of feeling connected to *him*, my mind was on a seemingly endless To Do List for me.

Do guys feel connected by talking about their work?

... and what I needed to feel connected was to talk about... the kids' birthday... what he thought of Steve... why I felt like picking a fight... a possible date night... I dunno. Anything that would have me thinking of him and/or us, and not a guilt-inducing To Do List.


Thanks! Does that mean I'm learning, maybe, a little bit?


That sounds good but (a) I don't think he'd listen past the first 5 or 6 words, and (b) I don't think I can remember that whole thing anyway! But maybe a shortened, paraphrased version will do.


Hmmmm.... what is my goal? I guess "to change my H" is a wrong answer! Hmmm.... To restore intimacy would be perfect... but I don't feel like allowing that right now. I think I sorta want coaching on what *I* need to do, and I don't want to let H meet my ENs unless/until he "really wants to." But when I put it in words like that, it doesn't make sense.


YES! I am doing the "We'll see!" Because I don't want to be vulnerable to be hurt or disappointed.


Hmmmm, "Sufficient unto the day"? hmmm.


Well since you put it like that, I did say that to him. It seemed to go over well, at least he proceeded to talk to me about work which I guess means he felt safe to do so. Or... everything he said was about trips that he would've had to tell me eventually.

But I asked about specific dates and that reminded hi of the kids' b-day, he said that meant that one trip was now out of the question, and he said "It's a good thing I came and talked to you." So. I guess I was using the Rule of Protection and promoting an atmosphere of safety? I felt like I was acting withdrawn, unemotional. What I was *feeling* was stress and guilt.


So you think the reason I feel more connected in a state of conflict is because it feels more "honest" to me? Hmmm. Maybe. I guess you could say I feel like pleasantries are cold, withdrawn, not "real and honest". Me DJing him by thinking he's less than honest if not in conflict? I'll have to think on that one.

Thanks LA! *hugs*

Wow, jayne, a lot of real insight here in your post! Do you see why folks say that marriage is a people-growing machine?

When your H shares about his work, in your mind, you make it about you, where you think that you're failing. What are your priorities? I think this is a balance that every working mother needs to find, and it changes over time, too. If you check your intent, look at why one decision or the other honestly reflects your choice of priorities, would that be a quick, self-confidence-boosting exercise?

Jayne, I caught myself making assumptions, and want to clarify with you instead. I am wondering if your sitch is a little like NowistheMoment. Have you identified your ENs, how you want them met? Have you expressed this specifically to your H?

You remember the part about feelings follow actions. What if your H does loving things, even when he's not "feeling it", and then the feelings follow? Would you be willing to try that?

Do you have a fear of not being "the right one" or "the good one"? Do you fear it'll make him look like a better catch to others? Do you fear he'll "outgrow" you if he works with Steve? What are your fears here? SOmetimes, when we shine a light on them, don't they seem to just shrivel up?

(((Jayne)))

Jayne, I think you and I are living in parallel universes! I posted a thread the other day about how I'm committing myself to washing out all the bad, bitter, ugly and angry feelings out of my life and trying to concentrate on feeling good about myself. This seems self-centric but in reading here and talking with my own counselor, I think that it isn't. What it means is that by improving myself, I will hopefully improve the situations around me--my relationship with my husband, my kids, etc. I keep telling myself not to mindread, not to assume--just be. It's really, really hard. I need my own 2x4 to beat myself about the head. LA had some excellent advice here and on my thread about filters, about how blaming others is really a form of control, about unneccesary expenditure of energy towards bad feelings. Every time I feel frustrated, I go back and read those responses.

My husband also says "we'll see" and I love the advice for answering that, though I admit it will be difficult for me to say something like that without tone slipping in there so that H takes it as a shot across the bow.

I've also done the fight-picking before a counselor visit. I think the wiser me will try to not do this, but instead mention in counseling that I felt like picking a fight and explain why. Then we can explore those feelings together in the safer environs of the counselor's office. Does that make sense?

I've only been working on this track for about 2 days but I gotta tell you, my stress level has decreased considerably. I can't fix or change anything about H. I'm hoping that I can introduce him to the MB concepts soon and that he'll embrace them. He still does plenty of things that annoy me but I'm trying to tie up my tongue before I say anything and acknowledge that it's annoying, then try to determine if there's a way I can say it without starting a fight. There's a great article on this site about how DJ's can escalate into big fights.

I had one more point to make and it just went out of my head. Oh well.