Redhat got married to a lovely woman - he appeared blissfully happy to those of us who attended a Los Angeles area MB gathering a few years ago. He and his lady flew in from the San Francisco Bay Area to be with the group. He is a real gentleman.

You could tell RH was one in-love-dude.

I am so sorry you're on the receiving end of another infidelity.

Take care.

bump

All,

So, here I am again at MB, a veteran if you will. My W had an A seven years ago and I came here for help. I was welcome with open arms and utilized the MB board as a sounding board for one of the worst experiences of my life....or at least I thought.

I'm back and looking to make some sense of the thing any married person fears most, the infidelity of thier spouse. I armed myself with the tools in both HNHN and SAA. Now, my wife has been unfaithful yet again, d-day was 12/10/08 when I discovered a series of emails on W iphone. I was snooping because I had an idea something was wrong in the relationship, you know that kind of disconnected feeling where you dont feel like your a part of your spouses life anymore. This began last summer when I discovered a huge amount of text messages on her cellphone bill, which she has since changed the online password in attempts to hide them from me.

For a while it was an EA, exchanging emails, phone calls, the usual contact. My W works for a large global telephone company, she is a manager in Southern California and the OM is a manager for the same company in Northern California, so making contact is real easy over the companies IM application. This activity went on from around June of last year until now, which I believe contact is still happening. The last week of October while taking a weekend trip with a friend to Napa Valley for wine tasting, day spa and girl time, so I thought. Her friend made all the arrangements.

From the time I was told about this girls weekend out I didnt have a good feeling about it, the last time she was away from home alone was seven years ago when the last A happened with another OM, so I had a real bad taste in my mouth about this trip. She told me her friend is funny about sharing a room with someone else and had booked two rooms, again I thought it was unusual, but still gave the benefit of the doubt since I had regained trust, but it still didnt feel right.

I dont know why this A affair happenened, too many LB in the last seven years, an EN gone unchecked maybe, I'm still not sure. I am however tearing myself up about where I went wrong, what EN have I slacked off on?

There are other factors surrounding this A, my wife is 48 and has been struggling with many internal issues and fears her appearance and youthfulness are waning, she claims she never had a chance to do things to discover herself before marrying me. Now, these things sound familar to me, especially as I reread my posts from seven years ago. We've all heard it, "I need to find myself, and I cant do that around you!", "I need some space to think about things!", "I love you, but I not in love with you!", whatever that means....! I think she thinks she cant attract a man anymore, she is however a very beautiful woman, I'm not just saying that because shes my wife, she really is, it has been somewhat of a burden during my marriage, men always gawking and several advances have been made. She said she always hated that I didnt stand up for on some of those occasions.

So, here I go again, same scenario, a long distance EA, a weekend PA and my heart ripped from my chest, thrown to the ground and stomped on. The first A seemed so much different, she called me the day after and asked me to fly up and drive with her back home, she felt she couldnt make the seven hour drive back home alone. Or did she feel remorse for what she had done?


This time it just seemed so cold and calculating, like she had no remorse, it seemed like she deliberately did it to hurt me. Her friend that made the arrangments didnt know about the affair, she apparently had made a last minute booty call to the OM, they had never met face to face until the PA, and havent been together since. This A just seems so much worse than the first, its like she went out of her way to stick the dreadful dagger of infidelity directly into my heart.

I dont yet know any of the details of the A. I would like to get everyone opinion on that. Do most BSs want to know all the dirty details of the PA? Is it advisable to ask for them, would that be a LB. I feel the WS should devulge any information asked of them by the BS, its only fair.

The pain I feel is unbearable, its been just under a month since d-day and I have uncontrollable crying spells and depression is taking its toll on me, I dont remember it being this bad the first time, but my mind could be trying to block it out. I hardly eat and sleeping is something I beg for, my eyes wont close because my brain is in turmoil. I dont listen to the radio while driving because it seems when I turn it on a song will come on that turn on the water works. I also have a heightened awareness of couples in love walking around holding hands, wishing I were in such a relationship, kind of like when you buy a new car only to discover now you take notice of how many of the same car you see on the road.

I'm plan A'ing my butt off right now, but contact still continues with OM. I brought the A to light on 12/10/08 and yesterday while planting a voice recorder in her car I picked up on her leavng a voicemail to OM asking why he is ignoring her and having nothing to do with her. I think after I made the A public, sending him a text message that I knew about everything and explained he wasnt the first one she cheated on me with, he began to think she is a hassle. The OM is single with two previous M under his belt, sounds like a real piece of work. What need could he possibly filled for her? I'm sure he listened and talked to her, so the need for conversation comes to mind.

I will write more again when I can pull myself together, my mind is really beginning to fog my thoughts.

Any thoughts and support are much appreciated.

-Gideon

Gideon,

I think I know why this one hurts so much. You know deep down you have done all you can reasonably expect to do in this marriage to keep it going, and she failed you again.

I think you know deep down, that rebuilding after a second affair will be much harder and unless she is willing to help save the marriage which her continued contact with OM indicates she is not, that you don't have enough energy and love left to do it alone like most BS' have to do for awhile.

I think deep down you know her selfishness really has no boundaries neither does her moral code.

I also think you know deep down, that she is unlikely to put into place boundaries strong enough to protect you and this marriage. She is a good looking, successful woman, and she wants to use those looks.

I have no idea if your marriage can be saved, but she has to want to save it, otherwise it is not worth the effort. I would recommend you call the Harleys, but my personal take on this is if you have plan A'd for a month this time, it is probably time for plan B.

It is your call of course, but unless she is on board, a two time loser like her is not likely to be the woman you really need in your life.

Just thoughts, I am sorry I could not offer you anything more constructive, but finally I would counsel you to look at the data and use that as the basis of your decisions, the data, rather than your heart will guide you best.

God Bless,

JL

I am with JL on this one.

Agree with JL and Mortarman, this may not be worth saving a second time. She knows the warning signs, she knows the boundaries, she knows the slippery slope and she knows the pain that follows. Yet she chose an A over talking to you about your shortcomings, or her fears of aging, or whatever other topics needed to be aired out.

Is she speaking to you rationally enough to give any indication that there were ENs unmet, LBs unchecked? If so, then perhaps another stab at the MB principals is in order. Perhaps there is something you can improve on your end of things. Perhaps you had become slack in some area.

I do note that she went on the weekend spa trip alone, her first trip alone since her A. Did you guys POJA this trip, or did she go regardless of your feelings? Or did you agree and fail to voice your concerns? Honesty and Openness may be something you could improve.

It sounds like you've confronted OM. Have you exposed to their work place? There's an excellent template that floats around here for a letter to expose at work, I can dig it up if you like.

Also, is OM married and if so have you exposed to his BW?
Have you exposed to WWs parents?
Have you exposed to your children if you have any?
Exposure is the single most powerful tool in your arsenal for ending the affair. Employ it swiftly, widely, and WITHOUT WARNING.

The only reason I suggest exposure and an examination of ENs, LBs, and POJA is that you don't seem quite ready to be done with it all just yet. I think a Plan B will come quickly for you, though. Your LB is being seriously drained by her actions and lack of remorse.

Agree with JL and MM.

Your WW's fears are justifications. She will continue to age. Time will not stand still. She has had a chance to "find herself" (whatever that means) it's called living. The clock can't be turned back. If this is her mindset you will be fighting a losing battle. What were her excuses last time? What will be her excuses next time?

It cuts deeper the second time because you can't fathom how she could it again after the pure he77 you endured the first time and she was witness to that.

A has been exposed, she knows your pain twice over, and yet she is still seeking OM out even though he is ignoring her. What would you advise your best friend if he stood in your shoes?

I'm sorry for your pain. Prayers to you.

This post should be pinned at the top of the forum.


SMB explains WHY PEOPLE CHEAT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



The reason is very simple and is the same no matter who the WS is.

You did not have boundaries in place to protect your marriage from intruders. Or you moved your boundaries because the attention you were getting from OM felt good and you didn't want it to stop.

It really is THAT simple.

Boundaries are what keep us where we belong. Once they are removed, we tread in dangerous waters, often drown, and drown those who love us.

There isn't some deep, dark childhood issue or personality disorder that caused you to have an affair.

Affairs happen because one spouse becomes selfish and self-centered enough to want what feels good at the moment MORE THAN they want to protect their spouse from pain.

All,

I want to sincerely thank those who have replied so far, I remember now why I came here last time to help me get through the most trying times of my life (again...).

I appreciate all of comments and views expressed, even if they arent what I want to hear. I take them all into consideration, Thanks.

I have been married to my wife for 25 years, thats more than half my life, and I dont want to through it all away without a fight.

I believe my W is still in the fog and am confident it will lift and I'll be there to catch her. I know what road I must take to rescue this M, and its a rough one.

Some of you may think I need to have my head examined, and rightfully so, I respect those opinions and welcome them. But I have fought and won this battle before, now I am armed with even more knowledge and I feel I can leverage it so that the outcome will be worth the pain, and boy am I familiar with the pain.

I also believe I know which ENs I need to work on and my email to my W encouraged her to express them as well. I need to make huge deposits in her LB, which leads me to question. What state shold my LB be in, or do I just put mine on hold to focus on hers? If so, thats a tough one for me as I am an affectionate person and right now I havent recieved any from W.

There is also an issue which didnt come into play last A. When I discovered this new A and approached her with it, I got so angry, lost control and physical violence ensued, I didnt hit her bared fisted, but hit her with a small pillow, twice. It was an extremely ugly scene.

Now, I am not, and never have been a violent man. I was raised to never hit a woman and made that a golden rule. It went against everything I am to do that to her. This is a battle I am also fighting to understand and fear I have learned something about myself that I just cant come to terms with.

I encourage you all to please be chime in if you feel you have something to say, say it. It is the vast spectrum of thoughts that are like fuel for my cause. I use every bit of it no matter good or bad it gets processed and without judgement to its author.

Today I have sent an email to my wife explaining how I can and will not try to reconcile our M with OM sitting on the sidelines. I did not make any demands or ultimatums. If the OM is really wanting nothing to do with her, the A will die the death it deserves and I'll be standing by to deliver the eulogy.

This is my segway (did I spell that right) to plan B, should I have to engage it.

Please follow along and wish me luck, I'm gonna need it.

Gideon

I absolutely understand that.

Gideon, I can't even imagine the horror of finding out this is happening AGAIN. What an amazing and supportive person you must be to even be willing to walk through another recovery.

I'm probably the weakest link in this place from my sitch and even I wonder if I could walk through another recovery. Something got you back to this point. Were you falling back into old patters and if so, how and what will make this time different.

I'm not judging you at all, I am encouraging you to look at yourself and make sure you really are committed to the work and the "rest of the life" work.

I wish you so much luck if you choose to recover.

Yes, Gideon,

I do think you are going to need a lot of luck. I also think you should hold the bar pretty high for her to come back into your life.

I have no problem with you giving it a try to recover this marriage. You having made that decision however means that you are going to have to be "ruthless" with not only yourself, but her. She did NOT have an affair because you failed to meet needs, and if you really think that you did not learn enough the first time through this mess.

She had an affair because she WANTED to. She did not care about the affects on the marriage, and she has failed to protect whatever boundaries she seems to have. NOTHING WILL REBUILD THIS MARRIAGE until she develops a detailed plan to protect her boundaries and your marriage. She has violated her vows to herself, marriage vows are voiced to the partner but they are really promises to ourselves. Who else is going to keep them?

I don't get the sense that she is interested in maintaining this marriage or even saving it right now. I don't get the sense that she has voiced even a "maybe". I get the sense that this OM may have been a "convenient" target, and if he folds she will (in her current mindset) find someone else.

I hope I am wrong, but as much as you want to save this marriage, you need to be "ruthlessly" honest with yourself and the data before you. You have no hope of a long term reconcilliation that is acceptable to both of you if you are not.

I do think that if my sense is right then plan B is very close. Please call the Harley's.

God Bless,

JL

No, I believe you are incorrect. So does Dr Harley.

The reason your WW had her second adulterous affair is not because of her EN's not being met by you.

In the following link, you will read a discussion that (MB poster) JustKim had with Dr Harley himself, about the BS having the EN list held over his/her head as a *primary reason* the WS had an affair.

The *primary reason* is not the lack of the BS filling the WS's ENs


Your WW is a very poor risk for future faithfulness married to you.

"Steve likens this emotional injury to a horrific car crash. If we had visible physical wounds that mirrored the emotional trauma we have sustained there would be a plan to heal. First, you do A. then B. then C. and so on.
If our spouses are unable to do these things, we will not heal properly and at best, will limp along for the rest of our time here on Earth."

I agree with this.

But being an eternal optimist, I can sympathize with how you wouldn't want to throw away a long term marriage, if there is anything that can save it.

From your description of your wife, it sounds like she has FOO issues, which I believe DO have to be looked at. Has she gone to counseling? I would INSIST on that.

Also, I think you need to get a battle plan. That will relieve some of your anxiety.

To me, it sounds like the cowardly OM will move on to easier pickings. So I would keep up the pressure there - exposing as necessary. And it seems like your wife will need to agree to quit her job, since that is where her affairs start.

All,

This is great stuff here!

I'm hearing different opinions and schools of thought, lots to process and gettin hard tonight, I'm throwing a pity party, me and Capt Morgan :=) Tonight might be a LB, but I'll try to keep myself out of trouble(sometimes the Capt make me say crazy things).

Please keep the letters comin!

Cheers, Gid

Believer,

Thanks for the post. I hope youre right about the OM moving on. I am still snooping in order to see if any contact is still happening. She didnt get the email I sent Friday, and I didnt mention I sent one. After she reads it, Im sure a long convo will follow(or a short argument). My plan is to have her pen a NC letter. Knowing my W, that wont go over well, but WTH, lets give it a go. Heres were it gets hard for me not to LB, she will get angry and insist she doesnt have to do it and doesnt owe me anything. Any suggestions here would be much appreciated.

Other than, not much to report from the weekend, I worked away from the house from Sat morning to Sunday morning, no sleep for over 24 hours. She called me at intervals while I was away. Her mother and my 13yo daughter were there with her, I dont think there was any contact with OM, can never be 100% tho, text messages are easy to sent from behind a closed door(right in front of someone for that matter).

There was some convo Sat morning before I left. She commented she didnt want to have a relationship with ABNYONE right now and just wanted to get her sheet and home together(no mention of M). I never know how to process those comments, I just listened, trying not to LB. I do think though its a response to the OM not having anything to do with her (so she says, and so I pray), but I can never know that for sure. She does seem depressed as though in withdrawl.

We had amazing sex last night, afterwards she turned and went to sleep, any afterglow closeness was not an option and I didnt push it. It has never been a big deal for her, its always to the bathroom then back to bed. Her jumping out of bed right after sex has always bothered me, this didnt just come about with the A, its always been that way, almost as though shes ashamed. I spent the next 2 hours laying there listening to my ipod, running my fingers through her hair and watching her sleep. I was going on 2 1/2 hours of sleep for the weekend, but my brain just wouldnt let it happen, I wanted closeness. Its these little things for me that make it extremely hard to get through. My beautiful W has just made incredible love to me and I dont feel fulfilled, tears out my heart and destroys my confidence. AFFAIRS SUCK OUT LOAD!!!!!!!!

Later,

Gideon

G: Read your story and feel for you! Heartwrenching!

We've got some similarities in our marriages...my wife is good looking and just turned 40. She constantly gets carded at Wally-mart and the other day while we were shopping at the Buckle a customer came up to her asking questions as if my WW were am employee.

40 years old, two kids and, well, she's a hottie! I'll admit that.

Do you think your WWs insecurities have anything to do with this A? That need to be wanted? That need to attract OMs?

Unlike you, I had no idea about MB and Harley's until after DDay#2 (12-26-08). Frankly its amazing that we even made it through A#1 (1996). I was making demands, LB-ing a ton and generally not a fun person to be around. And given the past indescresion and looking back on things, I'm amazed a second affair didn't happen sooner.

I guess that's why I'm hopeful we can work through this, establish boundaries, concentrate on ENs and move forward. Hopeful. I've had ups and downs, but I'm hopeful.

Hang in there G! As someone once posted on my thread, if you give your all and decide down the road this marriage isn't going to work, at least you can say you gave it 100% and tried!

Kudos to you two. Personally, If i had to repeat the traumatic experience of betrayal...... I would not be as forgiving.


I'll use a analogy of poker. You've spent half your money (years) and you don't want to walk away from the table because of how much money you have spent so far.

I'd hate to see you walk away with nothing except a 3rd, 4th, or 5th A on her part.

Please set the standards high for recovery, unless you like breadcrumbs.

Gideon.

Hang in there buddy. We are with you, we support you and we feel your pain...me especially!

You are making progress...because you wife called when she was upset and crying. Yes, she may have had contact with the OM, but at least she was venting to you. Progress my man!

Hang in there, keep posting, keep coming back here for the support, the encouragement, the strength to carry on.

It's hard because you and I are a select few who are going through this for a second go-around. SUCK. I'm here for you...& appreciate you being here for me.

Hang in there! D.

Update:

WW is beginning to open up a little more as time goes by, I get many more calls from her throughout the day, on her commute to/from work and during work when she can find the time.

I try to plan A my best, but those darn LBs, just small comments to her set her off sometimes, my bad...

Anyway, I think contact with OM is almost non-existant anymore, but never know (I'm turning it over to you God!).

Her reaction to my email which I laid it all out were mixed reactions from her, at least she ALL knows of my feeling, concerns and current resentments. I had told her in the email that WE NEED TO TALK, and do it in a relaxed peaceful setting, not the bedroom, or even at home for that matter, since she doesnt feel content with her surroundings at home. Anyone got an idea?

Well, I look forward to this talk, yet I'm very anxious and reluctant to what she may have to say. I believe its going to be some of the same ole things, like "I cant love anyone if I dont love myself!", and so on, with self improvement and such as one of her keypoints. I explained to her during a call yesterday, that I dont want to be swept under the rug, or be put on hold while she gets her internal issues under check, but I do however understand that inner happiness does play a big role in how we relate to others. I told her that if she feels she cant work on herself and work on our M, we dont belong together because I will not hang around to wait for another shoe to drop.

I dont know if some of the things I said are considered LBs, but damnit, I want my feelings to be known and my voice to be heard.

Well, thats all for now.

Cheers,

Gideon

G, good to see you posting! Was beginning to worry about you.

Good to see the wife is coming around, even if it's ever so slowly. Hang in there. If indeed the A is over and contact has ceased, she's probably going to be in the fog for a while. And then withdrawl.

She is CALLING you! That's good. Let her talk, keep it light, listen...listen and listen some more. If you are like me you want to fix this and fix it NOW! Women don't want that. They want us to empathize, listen, and lisen more. It's going to hurt to hear some of those things, but just listen and reflect back her feelings.

Keep Plan A-ing and avoid those LBs! YOu know how. Doesn't look like you have hard time remembering the "stick" of Plan A, now concentrate more on the "carrot."

Talking is good. My WW and I talk all the time now, much like we did before the A (man, looking back I wish I would have talked to her more...might have avoided this. All I can do now is move forward, learn from past mistakes and grow)

Keep talking, keep being patient and supportive,no matter what she says. Offer her chips (Melody's joke :))

Hang in there! You can do this! Be strong brother! And keep posting...because your strenght gives me strength! D.