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I am going to be very clear about her travel and it's effect on our marriage. Over the past couple of years she has been gone an average of 3 nights a week for 3 weeks out of the month.
I still get confused between boundaries and ultimatums. I was going to tell her that if we are going to build our marriage I feel that she needs to find a job with no overnight travel. If she chooses to ignore my request and doesn't even try to find something I will come here for further advice.
I know I can't live long term like this. Too much anxiety and too little time to work on us. I don't want to end up in plan D. That is what I'm afraid of.
Me: FWH / BS (36)
W: BS / WW (37)
Two youngsters
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Just read Mel's post. It makes sense. We'll discuss tonight and I'll come back and update next week.
Me: FWH / BS (36)
W: BS / WW (37)
Two youngsters
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Conversely, I must say, immediately after my D-day, we were counseling with Jennifer H and I had to take a business trip. Jennifer FREAKED, wanted me to cancel, take my W, anything but leave in those first few weeks. If I had to go she wanted us to talk constantly by phone. When Steve Harley counseled NZ from Dallas, he INSISTED that she go with him on every business trip.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Ultimatum: "You either get a job without travel or I am throwing you out tonight!" Boundary: "I cannot continue in this marriage if you choose a job with travel. I want a marriage that is protected from this ever happening again, and you having a job that requires travel doesn't insure that." Boundaries are about protecting YOU...They are "fences" that protect what is on your "property". (Stuff that you can control: like whether to remain in your marriage if she chooses a job with travel...her boundary very well could be that she must have a job with travel...In that case your boundaries would be at odds, but in order to protect yourself, you would have to stand firm in your boundaries.) Clear as mud?  Get the book Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend... Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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I think rather than boundaries and ultimatums MB calls for POJA.
That said, I'm sure that Harley would recommend that if travel is unavoidable, Lost consider going along is possible. That is what Jennifer suggested to me.
I will say that a WW being gone 3 weeks out of 4 in a recovery is absolutely impossible.
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I still get confused between boundaries and ultimatums. I was going to tell her that if we are going to build our marriage I feel that she needs to find a job with no overnight travel. If she chooses to ignore my request and doesn't even try to find something I will come here for further advice.
I know I can't live long term like this. Too much anxiety and too little time to work on us. I don't want to end up in plan D. That is what I'm afraid of. Lost, be up front with her. Tell her you can't live like this and are not willing to settle for the status quo IF THAT IS THE CASE. Stop being scared of "ultimatums" and tell her what your boundary is. An ultimatum will not make you die. I have never met a person who got eaten by the ULTIMATUM MONSTER. BUT I HAVE MET PEOPLE WHO GOT EATEN UP BY ABUSIVE AFFAIRS! Just say it how it is and don't fear the bad boogy man.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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A rule of thumb is that things that are harmful to the marriage ARE NOT up for POJA. For example, having 3 women would not be a POJA issue because that would be harmful to the marriage. That is a boundary. Otherwise, you would be using POJA to destroy your marriage. So, no travel is not a POJA issue, but a boundary issue the same as NO CONTACT with your affair partner. Dr. Harley: The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.
I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.
The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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ul⋅ti⋅ma⋅tum   /ˌʌltəˈmeɪtəm, -ˈmɑ-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uhl-tuh-mey-tuhm, -mah-] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tums, -ta  /-tə/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [-tuh] Show IPA Pronunciation .
1. a final, uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force.
Yep, thats what it is!! You can call it a baloney sandwich if calling it what it is gives you the SWEATS, but it is what it is: uncompromising demand or set of terms issued by a party to a dispute, the rejection of which may lead to a severance of relations or to the use of force.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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If your goal is a recovered marriage, then you should not settle for less. If your goal is just to keep your wife at any and every cost and put up with any kind of abuse, then you should accept the status quo. If you do want to keep her at any cost and intend on tolerating her abuse, I would stock up on the booze and the narcotics NOW so you can get become accustomed, like some others here, to drowing your pain with massive doses of booze and narcotics. Personally, I would rather be dead than live like that, but that is just me. YMMV  Great post mel, take heed, TSSIm, All blessings, Jerry
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A rule of thumb is that things that are harmful to the marriage ARE NOT up for POJA. I agree that if a serious condition can be met, it should. I can tell you that travel would not cause a Harley to counsel walking out the door and giving up on reconciliation, because I was counseling with JH when travel was impossible to postpone. She counseled constant contact via text, email, phone etc.
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I can tell you that travel would not cause a Harley to counsel walking out the door and giving up on reconciliation, because I was counseling with JH when travel was impossible to postpone. I don't know about that. I have seen Dr Harley recommend DIVORCE to spouses of folks who refuse to do anything to recover the marriage. [there are several examples over on the weekend forum] In this case, the recovery of his marriage is contingent upon the conditions that led to the affair BEING REMOVED. So, not removing those conditions essentially IS giving up on reconciliation. And what would be the purpose of staying in a marriage that won't recover? Just to stay in the marriage? WHY? A sane person is not going to volunteer to die a death of a thousand cuts in a bad marriage that is doomed to failure anyway. It comes down to being willing or not to stay in a marriage with a spouse that refuses to do anything to recover. Most people would not stay in a marriage based on that condition. And that decision needs to be made by LOSTIN2008. Is he willing to live in a marriage under these conditions or NOT? Only LOST can make that decision.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It comes down to being willing or not to stay in a marriage with a spouse that refuses to do anything to recover. I agree with you, but I haven't heard that in this situation. We are talking about an OM that lives 200 miles away and isn't involved in her business. Travel sux but in and of itself I'm not sure it constitutes an unwillingness to reconcile. HOWEVER, as I said 3 weeks out of 4 is ridiculous. You might as well be divorced anyway.
Last edited by Mike_C2; 01/09/09 08:56 PM.
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It comes down to being willing or not to stay in a marriage with a spouse that refuses to do anything to recover. I agree with you, but I haven't heard that in this situation. We are talking about an OM that lives 200 miles away and isn't involved in her business. Travel sux but in and of itself I'm not sure it constitutes an unwillingness to reconcile. I don't think they are separated, so it is not a matter of reconciling, but a matter of recovering the marriage. The affair happened because of the travel. As Dr H says, traveling jobs are an INVITATION to affairs. In this case, it was the condition that led to the affair and in order to recover, that condition has to be eliminated. Recovery is not going to happen unless the conditions that led to the affair are eliminated and they begin spending 15 hours per week together. So the question for Lost2008 is do you want to stay in a marriage that won't recover if his wife won't quit her travel job. Is he willing to accept the status quo? I would add that traveling jobs are hard on even good marriages. In 2007 my DH and I, years into recovery, transferred to a new city. I hoteled it 3 nights a week for a few weeks and my H was with me about half that time. Even THAT time apart was hard on our marriage. It would take us 2-3 days just to feel attached again. It was terrible! We ended up buying a house down here before our house was sold in order to avoid that problem. So I can fully understand how much more damaging it would be on an already crippled marriage. It has already led to an affair; can't get much more damaging than that. It comes down to making the choice between the status quo and recovery. Because they can't recover if the conditions that led to the affair still exist.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Lost, please accept this as you will. It means nothing about me other than my desire for marriage. I make less than 1/5th of what I used too.
It's all worth it.
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Mike,
""We are talking about an OM that lives 200 miles away and isn't involved in her business.""
It was my understanding that she met the OM in her travels. Traveling involves more temptations than not traveling.
Quitting her job for another that does not involve traveling is not such a HUGE deal. Not as HUGE as continued temptations and more affairs.
My point was/is if she refuses to stop traveling rather than rebuild her marriage, what is that telling him/you/us?
LOST, does she enjoy the traveling? Does she travel to the same accounts all the time, or are they new accounts every trip?
kirk
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