...affairs. IE JUST as platonic friends? IE especially if either one of them is married to someone else? And when their respective partners are not involved in these friendship. IMHO I don't think they can ever be just platonic friends when they're already paired with others. What are the veterans viewpoints?

PS I tried to search for similar threads but the search function doesn't seem to work on this site.

Thanks.

I have an opinion, but first...define friends

I don't think they can as individuals. It's just to risky.

I agree with Dr. Harley you have to do everything as couples. Even in work relationships I don't think you she see each other except together with your spouse. Also why would you need to if your following the MB principles.

As for actual friends, I would say no. Now something like at work where you have small bits of small talk and that is it...not friends really just acquaintances. You cant truly be "friends" with someone of the oposite sex alone without running risks.

What's a friend?

Someone who you share your thoughts and feelings with?
Someone you share personal information with?
Someone you spend time with alone doing fun things?
Someone you call up to see how their day was?
Someone you seek out when you need help or encouragement?
Someone who seeks you out when they need encouragement?
Someone who has the same interests as you?

Yeah, this is a friend.

If you are single and they are single then it's fine. If they are the same sex as you, this is fine. But if you are M? Nope. This SOMEONE should be your spouse. It is obvious to see how dangerous having a "friend" of the opposite sex can be. These things seem innocent enough, but they are not. They are the first steps down the slippery slope of infidelity. Most people don't have boundaries when it comes to "friends". And they don't know that they should.

And in a relationship where these things are happening, ENs are being met and units are being deposited into love banks.

We all know what happens next.

This is how affairs start. As soon as one need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow.

Dr. Harley on how affairs start:

yes, this is how A's usually start, but I would never assume that EVERYONE is vulnerable, I think out of respect for a marriage a S shouldn't be heading out to "hang out" with a member of the opposite sex, if two people are friends and opposite in sex their S's need to be along and included in this friendship. There are some, that have a sense of themselves, know themselves, have boundries, have a healthy self esteem and a healthy confidence, and dosen't need attention from anyone other then their S, so I wouldn't say that everyone is enept and out of control and can't be friends with the opposite sex without having an A. I have had plenty of opposite sex friends that have NEVER been disrespectful or have said or done anything that I would consider a flirtatious out of line comment, and if those things would of started that would of had to be the end of our "friendship" as it was known.

I am a woman and more than half of my friends are male. If I would only make friends with women I would not have many friends at all. I am an engineer and the people I went to college with were 90% men. The same goes for the people I work with. I like outdoor activities like kayaking and skiing and of course there are women who like that but there are more men.

I am sorry if you think that this makes me vulnerable to an affair. I have always had a very strict boundary to not get involved in a romantic way with any of my friends. And while I was with my ex husband the most important boundary was of course that I didn't want to cheat on him. I don't flirt with friends and I don't encourage any flirting and it is very rarely anyone tries.

For me, one important factor is "spending time alone". For example, one of my friends likes to ski and I and ex husband used to go skiing with him. Sometimes ex husband did not have time to go and then I went with our friend. That was ok, but it would not have been ok if I would have CHOSEN to go alone with him.

I think that if you choose to spend time alone with someone without your spouse, if you don't want him or her to be there, you are on a slippery slope.

Some people say that everything you do with someone else that you don't want your spouse or partner to know is cheating. Well I don't want to cheat so I would not do things that I can't tell my spouse.

Besides, what about affairs between a WW and an OW? Does that mean that a woman cannot have female friends either?

whyus, your right, thats what I am talking about, not everyone is incompetant and out of control. agreed.

The problem is the word.

What word?

Friend!

There are too many levels of friend ship for just one word to cover.

Many levels of friendship. Some have the boundries to prevent affairs some don't.

Many an affair has started by sharing one's problems.

Or being an ear for some one else's problems.

Recreational time with friend instead of spouse.
Many a affair started because a WS started biking or running or going to the gym with their OP. Too much time making good times and fun memmories with OP. Little to no time left to do the same with the BS.

I agree with why_us.

ALL, and I mean ALL of my friends are male. I am not in a relationship, but if I was, and cut out all male friends--

I wouldn't have any friends at all!

Some of us have excellent boundaries. Some of us know where the line is.

But again, I'm not in a relationship...

Yes, friend, I consider a friend someone who dosen't flirt with me, or have those "hidden messages," gazing eyes, all those things that people know when "its on," People KNOW when it's more then a friendship, or when someone is "after" them.

If you are not just heterosexual, then having close friends of the same sex would also be a danger. People who are heterosexual only, seem to have placed self imposed strict boundaries in that area already.

I will add that a very close friendship with a member of the same sex CAN also place stress on a M. Your S must come first and their feelings put ahead of any friend's.

Exactly, that's how your WW or WH's get Toxic Friends who encourage them to do whatever they want to be HAPPY, like have an A.

yes if there is any problem with your S having issues with a friendship then it must stop or a compromise set into place, as long as its a healthy control from that S as with any friendship. geesh it's a fine line, no?
I have seen some pretty damaging same sex friendships though, not A related either.

The Road, you are correct, but I also agree with WhyUs. I'm also in a male-dominated profession and have accumulated more male friends over the years than female friends. I have more in common presently with my male friends than my female friends - who are all in relatively newer marriages with smaller children while my marriage is finished and my son is grown. But that doesn't make what you said less true - I would only revise one statement: It's not the friendships themselves that have or don't have boundaries. It's the people in them.

I'm coming to believe more and more that adultery is related to a personal flaw in the adulterer. It is said on this site that all of us are prone to infidelity under the right circumstances. I'll take that further and suggest that some of our "right circumstances" are a little more extreme than others while others, if they wake up breathing that day, circumstances are right for an affair.

When I got married, I pretty much stopped hanging out with my friends, male AND female. I still have friends of both sexes but generally only see them in context of as a couple. Even the friends I go fishing with don't get all of my recreational time. we fish together maybe once per year, three different groups of guys who like to fish, but I even sacrifice (for lack of a better term to use) fishing with or without any friends to tag along in order to maintain our marriage.

The problem isn't the friendship and not even the sharing of oneself with friends. The problem lies in NOT doing those things with your spouse.

I think it all boils down to how much you value your marriage. If your marriage is the most important thing in your life you try to develop activities with your spouse that bring you closer together.

If your top priority is having fun, then you develop relationships that bring your the most joy with the least amount of effort. These are your friends.

The two sides, Giver and Taker, each want something different from any relationship. The Taker wants to be happy, the Giver wants to make others happy. The problem arises in trying to separate the two into different relationships.

We begin to TAKE from our spouse and GIVE to our friends. But our friends GIVE to us as well and so those relationships grow while the one at home withers from lack of attention.

Once down this road but a short distance we no longer desire spending time with our spouse and begin to spend all our time with our friends.

Any relationship that takes away from the marriage is bad for the marriage. The sex of the other person and levels of romantic or physical attraction really don't matter. A same sex relationship can end a marriage if it is where the investment is made rather than in the one with your spouse. This can happen with NO romantic or sexual component at all. It could be said to be an Emotional Affair even without any attraction or romantic feelings at all.

If I spend every weekend doing what I enjoy most of all with a same sex recreational partner, my relationship with my wife is taking a back seat to my friendship. This alone is a problem, but even more is at stake here. Soon I get almost all my enjoyment of life from my friendship and the marriage means very little to me. I begin to develop the friendship at the expense of the marriage and even begin to justify spending time with my friend rather than with my wife.

Once in this position people even begin to lie to the spouse about recreational activities, hiding trips till the last minute, keeping secret bank accounts to fund the activity, making excuses for ignoring the marriage partner...Just like in an affair...

The previously mentioned boundaries is the key, but not merely a boundary that stops romantic attraction. It must be not only a boundary between friends but a boundary AROUND the marriage as well. In order to be successful, a marriage must be invested in. You must nourish it as you would a living growing thing. It requires time, commitment, dedication and sacrifice in order to live and grow.

And TIME is the most important of all. For without spending time together we grow apart and spending time with others, regardless of sex, prevents us from spending time together.

So when has a friendship gone too far?

When it has taken away from the marriage that which should belong to the marriage no matter what that thing is.

But the easiest and most likely thing that gets stolen by friendships is TIME.

Buyers place the marriage first.

Renters place it on an equal par with enjoyment of life and self-fulfillment.

Freeloaders invest nothing in anything that doesn't seem fun at the moment. They make poor friends as well.

JMO.

Mark

Yes, I agree, a same sex friendship can also damage a marriage even if there are no romantic feelings involved.

But I just wanted to say how I feel about my friends. I believe that I am 100% heterosexual. The thought of being with another woman disgusts me. Please don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with homosexuality and I have friends that are in same sex relationships. But I am not attracted to women. It would be, well, disgusting.

I have exactly the same feeling regarding my male friends. The idea to start a relationship with any of them disgusts me. There is nothing wrong with them but it would feel so wrong.

Mark, I get what your saying and agree, infact I always think that your posts are wise and very on the mark(no pun,well sort of)
My S works a very different profession then mine, different hours, we very often have different days off. I have GF's that I have lunch with or shop with. I schedule these things when he can't be available. I think that same sex kinships are great for a relationship, fellowship, mentors, someone that knows your life and can get your head on straight when need be, those are friends. Friends are important to individuals, cultures, neighborhoods, friends are important to have and a true friendship should be nurtured in a healthy way, and that friendship understands that a S comes first.
I saw my true friends when there was issues in my marriage, the ones that supported me in the right way, and understood my stand, and then was grateful for those very friends when there were deaths in the family and they were there with food, direction and all those things you need at those times.
People with a good sense of who they are, their boundries can have it both ways and all ways, but agreed, the marriage comes first on all accounts.