This IS me trying to avoid the previous cycle. Previously, things would come to a head and there would be some confrontation, things would be chilly for awhile, and then H would sort of "act nice" without really fixing/addressing the problem, I would be so grateful for even 5 minutes of conversation that I would forget all about the problems and I'd go back to thinking all was well. So I would let down my defenses, forgetting that there were still underlying, un-addressed problems. Until the next blow-up.

This is exactly what y'all were suggesting, to stop that cycle. To detach. Ok, you prolly said *lovingly* detach, but I does what I can.

Yes, things are hectic. Yes we are going to a new church, but I don't have time to join any small group, I barely have time to do stuff with my kids. Yes I'm on ADs.

Well, I kind of meant that I think you need to give yourself a breather. You have had way too much commotion in your life the last few months, and it might behoove you to try to stay away from working on your M for a little longer. Let things calm down, and then tackle it. Until then, maybe a little autopilot?

Jayne, thanks for clarifying. I remember one day that you all told me to go sit down with a cup of tea, because I was stressed out, and the whole time I was totally stressed out more about what I wasn't doing while I sat there. Like when your H was engaging in conversation, and it touched a soft spot for you, Ouch! Cat's reminder last month about the "have tos", the "want tos", and the "would like tos" really helped.

I'm reading Mars and Venus Together Forever, and it talks about how women used to get nuturing from each other. For example, like hanging clothes on a line together, or peeling potatoes, or washing the clothes at the river. And now we work in this sterile world, and need a little nurturing at home from our Hs. That this 5 minutes, like you mentioned, makes the world of difference, and lets us go on for hours after. It talks about how men take to this very naturally, the watching and observing. Instead of feeling an pressure to fix things, like at work.

I realized that in the Boundaries book, I was reminded to build a network. Often popping by my neighbor for 5 minutes, or making a 5 minute phone call made all the difference, when my H isn't available. Of course, he's my favorite person to talk to, but I don't have to get lonely and frustrated when he's not available.

Jayne, I don't know if any of this helps or not. Just hoping that I can touch on something to help you feel a little better. Or are you feeling okay, just a little tired, and I'm making a big deal of nothing?

I guess you could say that's what I'm doing now. Trying to uphold my end of the marriage commitments, that's about it. Not really wanting to engage on an emotional level.

I'm not sure but you may be making a bigger deal out of this than need be, I don't understand what you're trying to get me to do since I thought you were all for detaching.

I've got a problem with the Mars/Venus stuff. Not only the obvious complaint that absolutely no one should ever ever make generalizations because there will always be exceptions.

But also, am I really the only person who has noticed that, depending on the sitch, sometimes people say "Oh you have to understand men, men always want to fix a problem if you tell them about it, while women understand just wanting to express feelings" and other times it is described as it's women who are the fixers. Here you say men naturally take to just observing and not fixing. Isn't this the opposite of the original Mars/Venus premise? Am I the only person who sees through this and realizes that it just simply depends on the person and the sitch, not on the gender?

I hope I don't sound nitpicky, but another thing is I went back to the beginning of nowisthemoment's thread to remind myself, and to see what you thought we might have in common. She had an A, she married her best friend and childhood sweetheart, they talk a lot, he's loving and affectionate but she isn't, they rarely argue, he's generally been agreeable to whatever she wants. Was it something more toward the end of the thread that you thought resembled my sitch?

Detaching has a kind of peacefulness to it. Where you are deep down confident that you know you and your family are okay. I didn't hear you say that. I heard you say that you need your H for DS, and are settling for a relationship where you are miserable, because you already asked your H for what you needed, and you lost confidence in him when he didn't come through. Please correct me if I didn't get that right.

I don't know much about the Mars/Venus stuff. My last MC asked me to get that book. I like how Dr. H explains things much better. MB talks about how ENs get met through the spouse, to build those love units. Which is great, because the goal is to build romantic love.

But there are times that we get disconnected from our willingness to build romantic love. And during those times, it's great to remember that we don't have to get lonely and frustrated. We can choose at those times to get some support outside the marriage, with friends of the marriage. I was just throwing out ideas, thought maybe something would be relevant.

It was saying that men don't like feeling stuck as the fixers, but they feel like they have to. But women can clarify that they don't mean to burden them with fixing. That all you they is for the guys to sit a bit with them, listen to them about their day, too. I thought that sounded familiar, like when you said that you want to talk about more than just planning the logistics of stuff out.

Of course there are exceptions, jayne. I count on you to set me straight here. And you do You're the expert on your home.

What I meant with Nowis, was toward the end of the thread. It's moved on sice then. But at that point, she'd said that she didn't know what she wanted from her H. I thought you were saying something similar. I was asking for clarification. You clarified that you do know what you want, Conversation, O&H.

Sorry, jayne, caught myself feeling a little defensive there. I have been concerned hearing you sound worn down for some time now. But I know that happens, too. Part of the process. Sorry for adding my worry here, where it clearly doesn't belong. You know I have a lot of faith and confidence in you.


I was trying to encourage you to reach outside for support. But you already have been making effort there, with great results. Getting your biys involved in the local community. Again, my worry didn't belong here. Sorry, jayne. I'm working on that.

I appreciate your support and your patience with me. I didn't mean to sound critical, I just don't have a lot of time to write so I was just dropping in to type something quickly.

I'm just trying to do my part of what I'm supposed to be doing, without opening myself up to be hurt or disappointed right now. Always before I would forget to keep my defenses up. That's the pattern I'm trying to break. That specifically CALLS for not being optimistic, positive, open. Unless I'm totally confused. Which I may be. But that's where I'm at right now.

Why does keeping your defenses up mean you have to be pessimistic? Explain how that feels to you.

Oops. Please.

Because otherwise I'll forget, and start thinking all is well and that I can trust him and talk to him and stuff.

Jayne, I am so sorry. This just doesn't sound acceptable. I know what it's like to have a 'decent' husband but who doesn't supply the...intangible things we need. I just don't know what to tell you. Except that maybe your ADs may need to be readdressed? Can you take a break and visit family somewhere? I'm really worried about your state of mind. Would you like to call me?

My state of mind doesn't seem quite as bad from this side as I must be coming across. I dunno.

It's also that I'm not shooting for feeling better short-term. I am holding out for something along the lines of Cuthbert Calculus's (and all those other awesome MB H's) epiphany and change of heart.

If I start acting like all is well, not only will I forget that I can't just talk to H about anything, but also he'll think he's done enough to placate me, until the next time I start this "foolishness" again. And then all he has to do is be nice and placate me again, yada yada yada, ad infinitum.

No more. I'm not happy with the current situation, I want one of those great M's I keep reading about here, but I'm not willing to have an A to open H's eyes. So I'll just make sure I maintain this... withdrawal? detachment? whatever... and see if Steve is able to reach H or tell me what I should do.

Hmmm... my intent in staying detached/withdrawn/whatever, is to *not* settle. To not act like everything is hunky-dory, cus it isn't. I'll try that "One spouse leading the other back to intimacy" but I *won't* allow myself to be the first to feel intimate, or assume intimacy is safe.

Yes the peacefulness and predictability feels comfortable. The conflict avoider in H prolly likes it too.


Yes I agree. The thing I said about Mars/Venus wasn't meant to sound like I was snapping at you. It's something I first observed a long time ago, you just gave me the opportunity to voice it.


I'm willing to do what I can to build *his* feelings of romantic love. I'm not willing to delude myself that he's really making any effort to build mine; not until/unless I see something more than him trying to crack a joke and hope I smile.


Oh, I see. I was really confused by starting at the beginning of the thread. Thanks for clarifying.

Yep, Conversation and O&H. Heck, we had a long-distance relationship for years that was more loving than this. Give me constant emails throughout the day, and long heart-to-heart phone calls at bedtime, and I feel loved. Spend every night in bed beside me, asleep 10 seconds after your head hits the pillow, and nada. Zilch. Perflooey.

Sorry if I came across as abrasive, it wasn't directed at you. Maintaining walls feels to me like being abrasive. I guess my walls are rough brick, not aluminum siding or marble or polished wood.

ETA: another tangential observation: I said "to not act" and "to not settle". I recognize that that's splitting the infinitive. I happen to prefer "to not settle" over "not to settle". My intent is NOT to simply avoid settling, as in the absence of to settle, "not to settle". My intent is to actively do the opposite of settling, "to not-settle".

Besides, if man can "to boldly go where no man has gone before", then I can "to not settle".

And I prefer the British period outside the quotation mark. Take that, Merriam-Webster!

Is the absence of these little asides the reason y'all think I'm doing so badly emotionally?

Jayne, I do think part of my leap into worry was the new emoticons in your sig line. The first ones, were like a family, doing funny things, kind of tongue-in-cheeck. The new ones, I read as

jayne - in despair
your H - oblivious
son a - needs a 2 x 4
son b - totally nuts

Or maybe it was my filter LOL.

I'm still not really getting what your plan is now. Are you staying detached (ho-hum) or defensive (hackles raised)? Because I'm hearing some of both?

The new lil dudes are me tired, H cool (the silent type?), 6a is hitting 6b and 6b is making the silly face he made in the Christmas play. It might have made more sense if I put 6b to the left of 6a. Or under 6a.

:twobyfour:
:crosseyedcrazy:


I dunno, I think I'm not sure of the difference between the two things you describe. I can't stay detached without maintaining some resentment. If I stop being resentful, I will forget to be detached... I will start confiding in him, opening up, trying to communicate... I think I foolishly trust and open up with the slightest hint of caring from him. I don't want to settle for just the slightest hint. I want to hold out for more. I don't want to continue to promote him thinking I can be... humored? placated? silenced? by small temporary gestures.

Anyway... tonight the whole family watched a movie that H got. We seldom do that. In fact I'm not sure H has ever joined us to watch a movie. But this was one he picked out, the kids watched it last week but I hadn't so I suggested to the kids they check it out again, and H did. He got it cus it was about Antarctica - he loves Antarctica. I'm just grateful he's in North America instead of Antarctica. LOL But... you know what else it was about? NSF scientists... and... DOGS!!!!! HE RENTED 8 BELOW!!!!! I was bawling. ... and forms that were very familiar, just like ones I'd been working on today LOL ...and apparently H went to HS with someone who worked on the movie. ...Oh, and H and I went to Christchurch last spring. Just tons of coinkydinks all over this movie.

And 6a's cat sat and watched the whole entire movie very intently. See? Even the cat wants a dog.

I forgot to maintain resentment, and ended up joking around with H. SEE? See how stupidly easy I am?

Okay, jayne, I'm going to try to keep an open mind about the emoticons. "Just for today, I can do for 12 hours what would appall me if I thought I had to keep it up for a lifetime."

Okay, I think you're saying that detachment and resentment look the same from where you sit. I see it a lottle differently. Detachment is where you don't let his actions drive you nuts, nor change who you are. Resentment is where you do let his actions change who you are, from a happy, confident person, to angry, resentful one. From someone who lets go of the response, to someone who thinks that they can control others through their lack of acceptance.

I totally know what it's like to love the person, love being around the person, yet can't stand their actions. Then the actions change, momentarily, and I let my guard down, and find my expectations pop back! Jayne, to me, that's the battle, that's where the growth is to be found. I can learn to kick my exopectations! Not in trying to get my H to do differntly. Because I'm not that powerful. That's that toxic guilt stuff, yuck, if I think that someone's acting how they act because of me.

Jayne, this is where I got confused in MB. Because we are acting differently, choosing the actions that are most honest for us, being who we always wanted to be as spouses, and hoping that our partners will feel differently as a result. But I had a lightbulb moment, we do influence others' *feelings.* But, we don't influence their *actions.* They still choose their actions. They can feel happy that we did something nice, and then still feel mad the next moment, why didn't we do this earlier or more consistently. We influence, but don't choose for others. Because we have limit, boundaries, as people.

Am I making any sense, or did I go too far off

What would happen if, just every once in awhile, you would give him a drive-by of O&H such as 'I really miss the days when we used to write and call each other, when we talked a lot'?

Would he get mad? Defensive? Ignore you?

He prolly wouldn't answer. Whether he would be feeling mad or not, only he can say. If I kept at it, he'd prolly get mad and eventually have an AO.

I'm pretty sure I'm not doing the whole detached think right. I'm sure y'all have a point, I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to do differently. Yesterday I let down my resentment, and ended up feeling hurt and rejected by H's actions. That means I'm not letting go of the response or something, right? Anyway, maintaining resentment feels safer.

After several days' of asking, H did tell me which days were better for him for an appointment with Steve. So we have another one set up for next Wednesday.

I was looking at the MB Weekend info. Has anyone here been to one? Not that H would agree to go. But it looks like it is just Friday night and Saturday, correct? Plus your Friday night hotel is covered? So your expenses would be the registration fees, getting there, and Friday night and Saturday night dinner and Friday breakfast? Plus, at least for us, prolly the Saturday night hotel cus we prolly would have to wait till Sunday for the return trip. And with the registration you get all the materials in addition to Friday night hotel and Saturday lunch? How effective is it if one spouse is reluctant? I see there's a money-back guarantee - is that for real, even if one spouse is reluctant? Just wondering.

Jayne, do you want to rehash the event, maybe we can help you find where you're going from detachment back to resentment?