RHW,

You continue to AMAZE me!

So insightful and so clear that you are reading and thinking about what I am posting. I do not know how to thank you.

I love this whole post (above - sorry I didn't quote it and my computer is too slow to go back now).

I have an amazing psych and now WH has met with him twice. The psych gave me a lot of info that WH has probably been trying to tell me for a long time now and coming out of psych's mouth it was easier for me to listen to. It put me in a very good place and I find myself (at this moment at least) willing to LISTEN to WH for the first time in a long time and take what he has to say seriously.

Both of us met (indivudually) with psych yesterday and then spoke on the phone this morning. I hadn't called him in a day or two and I know he was feeling it - but I was MAD! Instead, after meeting with the psych, who more or less gave me your above post and charged me $150 for it... I felt ready to call him and KNEW it would be a good conversation. After we spoke WH actually sent me an e-mail saying what a nice conversation we had had and put in "thanks Dr. T" (and yes I did tell him that the affair hurts me and that for MC to work he needs to leave OW... sorry I cannot seem to help bringing this up but he still liked the conversation). I also told him 'I need you' - which I think he needed to hear. But more importantly probably, I took the blame for treating him like a child and we discussed a bit how I have fallen into this role. We also discussed how he perceives me as his mom (or course he does if I perceive him as a child) - and how one's mom is simply not going to be one's sex toy.


You will only change how you perceive him when you get OFF of him and all that's wrong with HIM, and turn the spotlight on yourself. MUCH harder, and SO much less self-aggrandizing. Move your thoughts off how bad, wrong, inferior, stupid HE is. Stop thinking about those things. Hasn't gotten you anywhere. Try to shift your perception of yourself to see whatever truth there is in HIS perception of you. My FWH called ME "little miss perfect" too, and it knocked my socks off. But it began a period of introspection that showed me the insidious ways in which my arrogance played itself out. Huge revelations for me. Useful, too.

Yes - you are right. This is the bottom line, major most important thing that has to happen. I now realize that and although as you say it's going to hurt, I have to do the work right HERE.

As for him telling you he was out of sorts and "crazy" because he'd not heard from you Christmas week, take that for what it is. HIS stuff. Don't you think that, even as he's focused on the fact that you went dark, he's finding fault with YOUR behavior, just as you've done with him? Maybe it means he actually CARES. Maybe it means it's threatening his cake-eating mode. But it's HIS stuff. HE has to work through it, but you can't make him do it.

I don't know if he was finding fault with my behavior. I think my behavior was having a big impact on him. He desperately wanted to talk to me and I was totally unavailable. And he got scared. But I see that what needs to happen is I need to STOP analyzing his every move and every thought. Because my analyzing his thoughts is again treating him like a kid. For example yesterday the psych told me he will not have any more appts with WH until we do MC in early Feb together. I found that I was actually MAD at WH for not scheduling at least one more appt with psych over the next 2.5 weeks - but I immediately realized that WH can figure out for himself if he wants another appt or not and the two appts he did have were so incredibly helpful and I know the MC appts will give us a lot of insight. So why should I 'scold' him (even only in my mind) for not scheduling another appt? That is MY stuff. I realize I make judgements about him like this all the time. THIS NEEDS TO STOP! Same thing happened as he was late for his skype appt with Dr. T yesterday and Dr. T called me (in the Caribbean) looking for WH (in Europe!). I called WH on his cell and he wasn't home for the appt - and me - I was MAD! I analyzed it, thought that WH did not (unconsciously) want to go the appt, was being irresponsible, etc.. Realized after the appt that there I was again treating him like a kid. Luckily the Dr. had the next hour free because WH was an hour late for the appt so he would have missed it entirely and instead it was such an enlightening meeting.

Other news to report - WH said he would like to stay on the island 3 weeks to a month rather than 2 weeks. But who knows what will happen there. He also agreed to do MC with my psych while here as you read above so hopefully we can squeeze in two or three appointments. I think three will be the maximum if he is still seeing OW I doubt psych would agree to do more than that and I don't see him leaving her before Jan 30th when he comes here. I have been in good spirits and enjoying life.

I have a lot on my plate right now especially with immigration. My parents are being really helpful and I am also learning to deal with them in a different (and much better) light. I may go stay in their town for the two to three months that I cannot be on the island while waiting for my papers to go through. My mother has offered to watch the kids if I want to go to Europe for a week to get documents and things I need. They're looking into apartments and rental cars for me right now. The immigration thing is an enormous, unexpected stress. The guy in charge of immigration is extremely difficult and harsh so much so that I would prefer just to leave than to deal with him and have decided that that will be my strategy. Just calmly get the paperwork together and turn it in whenever I can without stress. Try to find someone to manage the rental apts in my absence. Maybe even that will go more smoothly this time if I allow whomever that is to just take total control of the situation and not worry too much. I always stress about it when I leave the rentals to someone else and there are always big problems. (Well, last time WH was screwing the person I left in charge ... but that was not the point of my story). The point was that maybe I baby everyone, even the people who i leave in charge, creating more stress for both them and me - and just maybe, this experience with WH will help me handle all situations in a different - and surely better- manner.

More later.
Q

Just bumping this quote to the end of my post because I need to read and re-read it.
I am going over my entire story (this thread) to get a clear picture and write down a summary of the advice that I want to keep clear in my head.

I feel that I am in a very good place right now. Reading this thread makes me quite aware, however, that this is a BUMPY road. Right now I'm on a smooth patch... but well aware that will change and change and change. For the moment I actually feel absolutely fine staying in Plan A and that there is a LOT of hope for us to recover and also feel at the same time that I could be perfectly happy without WH in my life. This is why I'm feeling like I'm in a very good place. I can't lose either way. And, I'm realizing that it is ME that has the power to control what is in my head. And I am using this new info in all areas of my life and all relationships and liking the results. But this is only the beginning. I have a lot of work to do and know that I've only scratched the surface. The thing is that up until now I had not been able to even scratch the surface. I even stated in a prior post that I felt like everything was superficial - now, finally, something deeper is happening and I am eager to delve into it.

Q

Also bumping up this post so I can keep reading it.
I am thinking that more than having this talk with him, I can show him in my actions - again - a lot of soul searching - just to figure out a practical way to do that - but this is a BIG thing right here.

YES IT IS!!

bumping this quote too... need to read and re-read.

Am really feeling this now. All good.

Q

Hi Mimi,
Glad to see you on this thread. I really value your advice.
Q

I AGREE WITH RHW!!

But how do you get off what is wrong with the WS when they are being such a dumba$$ right now?

Just wondering.

Rusty, read this quote to see if it helps. I was asking the same question a few posts back and Rightherewaiting gave this advice. Wanted to respond but obviously I am in the same boat - so don't quite have the answers yet. As more time has passed it is getting clearer to me what I need to do and I feel (maybe) more able to do it.

Hope that helps!

Well,

WH's trip to come see us is looming near. He will be here on Jan 31st - so less than two weeks away. He left here on November 8th - so it will have been nearly 3 months since we've seen him.

I am trying to find the time for this site, reading the books I have, speaking to the psych once a week and more than anything, soul searching. What I need, though, is just plain practical advice for what to do when WH is here.

I was thinking (fantasizing) all would be ok or at least go smoothly until our last phone call when he just kept letting me have it. It was hugely disappointing and not the conversation I had expected and I imagine that it is a taste of what is to come when he is here. So am I to just ignore this - how do I respond when yelled at? I am not a computer and I am not good at acting or faking.

I just feel like I'm learning a lot about myself and how my behavior and attitude needs to change (and is already changing). But the things that go on on my end of this relationship seem subtle to me, whereas he blatently yells - my stuff is more a look of annoyance or educating him about something... Probably best described as manipulative - I try to control him in a lot of small ways. I am not even aware I'm doing it - although now after all this maybe I will be. But if I'm not aware, how am I going to stop and how am I going to do it in the face of a wayward, demonizing H.

Let me give one example of a conversation that we will DEFINITELY have.

Me: I missed you while you were gone. It's good to have you back.
WH: It was absolutely necessary that I was in Europe for work. I got so much done. We did 7 projects. I could never have done it from the Caribbean. It has nothing to do with OW.

ME: Sample answers.... Then why wasn't I invited???? or Of course it was just for work... or _____________________

Stuff like this - what to say??? The bottom line is that he is lying to me and/or to himself because he has repeated this so often that I do believe that he actually believes it.

BTW if I say, 'then why wasn't I invited' the response is that he needs to be alone to do all this work. OK - where to go from there?

Thanks...

Are you in Plan A? If so, you will need to avoid any R talk. And avoid affair talk. Just be pleasant and change the subject any time anything comes up about such things.

If he gets in your face, tries to egg you into a fight, just look blankly at him for a few seconds (I got that from jayne - thanks jayne!), then turn around and leave the room. He can't argue by himself. And it makes you the bigger person. After 2 or 3 times like that, he'll get the message.

Although, if you think he might get confrontational, I would keep a packed bag in your car and your keys in your pocket at all times, so you and the kids can just get in the car and drive away.

Hello, Q. Just got back from a week away--FWH had to be at his old office where OW still is, so of course I went with him.

Sounds like you are really thinking and twisting the kaleidoscope in your head. Good!

I agree with catperson that you should avoid R talk/A talk while WH is there. That will be almost impossible, I know (BTDT). DON'T rehash his past actions (being in Europe to work) because 1) those actions cannot be undone, and 2) it will only put him on the defensive and an argument WILL ensue. That won't get you anywhere but on a downward spiral.

DO show him the new, self-aware, gentler you. Admit the ways YOU contributed to a less than happy marriage IF he brings up R talk.
If things start going south, STAY CALM. Tell him you don't want to argue. You want to enjoy his being there. Walk away if he's too wound up to stay calm.

Gotta run, but will be back later! We've got some time to prepare before the 31st.

RHW

How you doin' Q? How are preparations for the 31st coming along?

Hi RHW,
Well, I'm trying. Unfortunately I have a very busy life and not as much time as I would like for soul searching. When I get up and go jogging in the morning I try to get myself focused - but sometimes instead of thinking about my issues I think about, well, jogging, or what I need to buy at the supermarket or what to make the kids for lunch, or that I need to go pick up the babysitter at 2pm... So I wish I had more time. I have a lot of bureaucratic matters to take care of (immigration, rental business, taxes, insurance...) and am still trying to get things perfect around the house before WH arrives. Today I repainted a wall of the terrace and have been steadily doing projects like that. Millions of little things. I need to finish all that kind of stuff by this Friday (two days) because next week I have surf camp all week again 9am -6pm. And WH arrives on Saturday morning at 4am -Once surf camp starts I can't take care of anything else. I can't even see my psych that week. (priorities... ;))

As to what is going on inside my head... Well. my greatest new understanding is that it all boils down to me.

I cannot make him change and will not try to make him change. I cannot make him do anything and will not try to make him do anything. I accept responsibility for my share of the problems in our relationship. I admit and will do my best to admit to him if we are able to talk that I emasculated him by disrespecting him and treating him like a child -seeing him as a child. I will admit this to him and tell him I want to get to know the real him. I will LISTEN to him. I will do my best not to punish, retaliate or withdraw, or in any way behave in a way that serves no purpose. If I want MY needs to get met, I must meet his needs and then some and I must keep that (selfish) purpose in mind rather than focusing on OW. I will respond without anger and think before I speak. No knee jerk reactions. On that end I will work with him when he arrives to set up some rules as to what to do when we know we will say something we will regret. (we have already briefly discussed this and says he agrees we should do this). I will not talk in a disrespectful way nor accept that he talk to me that way. I will do my best to make my needs clearly known without complaining. I will not make blanket statements like, 'you always do X' or 'you are a Y'. I will do my best not to bring up OW or R or the M since we are in plan A.
I will try to meet his need for admiration (this is still going to be difficult without being fake). I will find and read the thread on body language because that could help me with the admiration EN. I will dress sexy with my new hot bod (thanks OW!). I will plan some fun activities for us to do alone and with the kids and organize extremely well with babysitter and housekeeper. I will have all his favorite things to eat in the fridge and in all other ways possible make the house a wonderful place to come home to. I have already planned for the housekeeper to work 6 days per week while WH is here. That way, I am just a little bit less his 'mom'. I will (WORK ON THIS ONE Q!) try to make him feel needed. I will concentrate on intimate/affectionate conversation.
And repeat after me: I will not educate, I will not educate, I will not educate...

I will re-read over and over, and refine based on your suggestions the above paragraph. Help me get it refined as there is a lot more.

I could and should go on - but this is brainstorming and I think it is doing me good. But a few logistical questions.

1. We did not exchange x-mas presents AND the day he arrives is the day after my birthday. Should I buy him a x-mas present knowing that I probably will not get anything in return. (He will use the weight limit excuse and that he is bringing the kids x-mas presents as well as some food that I insist on having (his mother will pack that) from his country that we cannot buy here. I was thinking of buying him a bottle of cologne.

2. Should I have a vase of flowers on the table? We do not normally have flowers but after 3 months away, if he were NOT wayward, I certainly would have flowers.

3. And more importantly - HOW MUCH TIME SHOULD I SPEND WITH HIM? I ask this because there is yet another surf camp the first week he is back. It is 9-6 Monday - Friday with Wednesday being only 9-12. There is a 2 hour lunch break every day and it is located at a beach where WH can come with the kids and the babysitter for the whole day, see me at breaks and at the two hour lunch... I can take a half day if I want. It is something that I absolutely LOVE but do not know if I should skip it because WH will have just arrived or if it would give us a healthy break from one another and time for him to spend with the kids. Also it would make it clear to WH that I have a life and is only for the first week. They also usually plan a group dinner - so I could go out one night without WH - something I NEVER have done in the past. (not to punish him but for him to see that I am out and about and enjoying life).

4. Tips on making him feel needed? Right now after being alone for 3 months - what can I say I need? I can jump start the car, paint a house, fix the computer...
and he well knows it. Give me some help on that one please.

5. SF?????????? I do not know what to do. I do not feel any sexual desire for him right now at all. If he touches me I do not know how I will react. I am scared of STD's.

What am I leaving out? Some of this is very general - and I need actual PRACTICAL advice. What to do if we fight... what do do about SF, do I continue to do all the bathing children, putting them to bed... while he is out at the computer? CAN I ASK for his help? And of course the burning issue - am I going to be able to handle it knowing he is on the phone with OW, or sending her messages via e-mail or cell phone? How will I not check his phone? I tell you - bile is building up in my mouth as I type this. How will I handle it when it is in my face? How do I respond to lies?

THANKS!

GREAT!!!

Can someone please direct me to schoolbus's thread(s) about body language? My connection is too slow for me to do a search.
Thx

I think that says it all. You want him to see you have a life, but I can imagine he'll see you go off to surf camp and think, 'yep, that's why I left her; she cares more about that stuff than me.' Take a trip to the library or store or something to show your independence.

What's going on in your head...great stuff! I think I may borrow that sometimes to show other people. It's everything we try to say, encapsulated in one paragraph.

Yes, present (remember, do nothing if you do it to expect something in return)

Yes, flowers. Make your home as welcoming as possible.

Have a list of things that you would love for him to do WITH you, like digging up a garden bed, or moving some furniture, fixing a financial issue; ask his advice about something you're planning for the kids, like taking a class or changing schools or something.

And I would definitely ask him to help with the kids! Can't imagine a thing that would make him want to stay more than getting closer to his kids and enjoying the day to day stuff with them.

If SF comes up, just hug him and say you would love to, but honestly, you're afraid of STDs after sharing him with another woman.

As for OW, calmly and politely ask him to refrain from contacting her while he is in your house.

You've said a mouthful in this post, Q, so I'm going to reply within it to make sure I don't miss anything!


Try not to stress too much, Q. This is such a scary time. The hardest thing, but the most useful, is to stay as calm as you possibly can. Tall order, but it will serve you well to do it as much as you're able.

We're with you.

CALLOUT TO Q!

How are you doing? Prepared for the 31st?

Hi there,
Well, there is a lot to report and it's not pretty.
WH is here. Still WH. Read his cell phone and there was an, 'I'll be there in 10 minutes" to her from a few days ago and an 'I love you' from her to him. All other communication was cancelled from his computer as far as I can tell or they are using an account I don't know about which is more likely.
I am not following the MB way- I have given a lot of thought to this and do not think that a long distance plan B can work - too many issues regarding little kids, too many financial issues that tie us together. Also I just don't think I want him anymore. I am pretty much ready for plan D. About a week ago after my psych appt I told WH that I will not tell him what he can/can't do but I will tell him what I will do. I told him that if he wants to keep seeing OW, that is fine with me if that is what HE wants and I will do what I want, which is divorce him. So when he arrived here, still seeing OW (he says he's 'alone' of course and doesn't want to see anyone but he is absolutely seeing her).
When he walked in from the airport, he hugged me in a nice way -but we have done a lot of arguing. I am honestly not able to do plan A and we have begun to discuss how to split up the property and arrive at a settlement. That seems to have brought a bit of peace, at least to me. I just feel like I do not want him and even began to feel bad for OW - actually thinking I should call her to tell her what a big mistake she is making.
WH told me that two people should have 'feelings' for one another and so even if he is yelling at me, I should still be attracted to him. He does not want to change nor work on it. He showed up here with a credit card that doesn't work so I have to pay for everything. I asked him to pay me back and he doesn't want to do that. I also paid the psych bill for him for the two sessions that he saw the psych. My psych thinks he is totally unaccountable for his actions and that regardless of separation or remaining married that I should separate my financial situation from his because of his unaccountability. I feel like I should have given this more time while he is here but I am really just not there anymore. I had asked him to get me some VERY important documents in Europe (for immigration here and which I must have to be able to stay on the island within 60 days and they take 30 days to process in Europe - and which he did not do). Now he cannot stay here very long and must go back to get them. He'll buy a plane ticket for around feb 15th. And I am relieved.
Wednesday I have to fly to another island with my son to renew his passport (no US consulate here). The trip will cost me around $500 for the day and I will pay for the whole thing. I told WH that I'd like him to at least pay half, considering it it to renew our son's passport and he told me that I got into this mess of living here and I should pay for it. (and so I am...)
It is strange. I wanted to want this and am almost afraid that now that I don't want him he will want to try. He thinks the house looks beautiful and ever more organized - I did a lot of work. He thinks I look great - also worked a lot on that. Also we have already cooked some wonderful meals in just one day. The best fish ever - and I knew it beforehand. I've thought of some things for him to work on with me - putting up a trellis on the terrace, dealing with the never-ending car repair, asking his opinion on whatever subject I can - and more. But the thing is that now it's me, not him. I just think he is too abusive, too unaccountable, too much a work-a-holic who will NEVER have the time to work on us.
Tomorrow I have an appointment for STD testing. I made it a while back and it happens to have come at this time. I told him the reason I'm being tested is because he cheated on me. I was tested during all three pregnancies and had a clean bill of health and I explained this. His response was that if I have anything I had it before. I am just sick of him. I wanted to try - especially for the kids - but it just is not happening.
Anyway, that was today. Not a great day - but I am feeling some peace.
I suppose I could flip around again - but not feeling that way now.
Have to get to bed.
xx
Q