I was reading here the other day (I read here often, though I don't find the time/have permission (work) to post) about being invested in M/R.

H told me last night he is no longer invested in this.

And he doesn't want to be. He's done, wants to divorce.

Partly I just heard him out, knowing what being in that place feels like (as I was DONE with him in July, ready to move on, and he asked me to reconsider - to be sure, then we were back together by mid-Sept.) Partly I'm appalled, that while, admittedly, we've had rough spots since he's been back in Oct (it was all supposed to be Easy Street, I suppose) he's ready to walk away from me after 3 months! I'm afraid because I finally 'gave in' again to being a "we" instead of just "me". I'm bitter because just before our 10th yr married I've finally recently changed my name - shame on him. And because I just got a new car - shame on me. I'm sad because DD/12, while still not completely sure she can trust H, has really been warming up & doing well & liking herself again. And DS/9 has made such a positive turn-around since H & I being back together. This is going to tear them apart.

I'm so upset that he's doing this! 5 mos ago I was ready - today I am blind-sided, heartbroken, and almost desperate. Where did I go?? Lost. Again. In my H/marriage/family. No more me.

Financially, basically, I'll be OK. It's going to get tight again but at least we got thru Christmas. We never caught up 100% from the separation last year. I'm going to take the day off today. Here we go again, with this cycle - I can't really afford to miss work (production-wise, as I'm in Sales) but I've got lots to line up. Or perhaps lots of sleeping/crying to do, I guess we'll see which "solution" wins.

I'm sorry - I come here when I'm desperate and more often than not I find a way to fight the advice I'm given. Yet this is the place I run to because I KNOW you guys GET IT. I'm sorry for being stubborn.

Yes, I'm back to Al-Anon & I realize I have to be a lifer. Since my last thread, when H drank, he has committed to all the rules, if you will, on my list - except for one. No AA. I know how you all feel about that and I don't agree or disagree...but I do know that this has nothing to do with drinking. Well, he did say he doesn't want to be sober. He can be, but doesn't want to be. But the bigger picture here is he doesn't want this anymore. He wants "freedom". Doesn't want to work this hard and/or "fight" for a marriage. Says that when there's love there shouldn't have to be such strife to simply keep it alive. I agree, I've been re-lapsing from my formerly/recently, newly confident self and have caused some great difficulty in being the Honeymooners we once were at various times throughout our marriage.

So, of course I want help or feedback or something. I told H that he can become re-invested (just as I had) but he says, the thing is, he doesn't want to. So I guess we can't really discuss "how to win him back" or Plan A or anything. I do not like this rejection! I won't twist his arm or beg him, yet I'm so afraid he's wrong about this - I guess because I'm not ready to be done. It's not over for me.

Julie,

I know you've gotten a lot of great advice here from people who have been where you're at. I'm sure you must feel exhausted, like you don't have any fight left in you. Do something to re-charge. Taking a day off might be good. Crying is good. It releases some of that frustration.

This is just my observation.... You're husband doesn't think he has a problem. He might agree to you that he does. But in his heart of hearts he hasn't admitted to himself that he's not in control and needs help. All you can do ... is all you can do... leave the rest up to God. Set your boundaries and stick to them. If he's not going to AA then you need to stick to your boundaries.

Pepperband told me that my wife was either on a dry drunk or a low bottom drunk. Could be your husband is the same. He may have to lose everything and be in a world of hurt before he decides to gets help. Who knows... He may never get help on his own.

I'm not saying give up on him. But as long as he doesn't have to take a long hard look at himself through the AA program or any other program he's not going to change... Just my humble opinion.


You're in my thoughts and prayers Julie.

Julie, my dear friend, this is not quite true. He was ready to walk away 3 years ago. The first time you came here and the first time you actually told him you had boundaries. The problem is and always has been your boundaries. They get in the way of his first love. Always have, always will. He cannot live happily with someone who tries to come before his drinking. He will let you in his life for awhile as long as you don't interfere.

He was only willing to come back on the condition that you not interfere in his freedom. [too much] He came back on his terms.

I wonder where you would be today if you had stuck to your boundaries? I am sorry you are here, Julie, but you are here because of wishful, unrealistic thinking. You must take responsibility for this, because this is a repeat. You have been here so very many times.

I am sorry you have brought yourself to this terrible place. But Julie, this was a foregone conclusion. You can't change him. He has had YEARS of opportunities to INVEST. You can't now and have never been able to force him to change against his will. But please don't prolong your pain.

The only alternative is to be so desperate that you are willing to forgo any and all boundaries. He might not even settle for that. But he has a first love, Julie. And it is not you, Julie.

Let me add more. There is empowerment in ownership of our actions. If we don't own our actions, we feel out of control and victimized. If we recognize our own hand in the outcome, we know we have a measure of control. And you have control here, Julie, and have had it all along. What you don't have control over is HIM.

I know you don't like to talk about blame, but I think it would be a huge mistake to fail to take ownership of your part in this, lest you walk away feeling like a victim. And there really is no empowerment in victimhood.

What has happened here is analogous to a BS taking back a WS after a long Plan B on the WS's conditions. The only condition the BS sets is that the WS cannot have sex with the OW. He can go to her BAR every Tuesday and see her. He can see her at work every day, but he just CANNOT TOUCH HER. He is not willing to end that contact.

Would marital recovery ever be possible on those terms? Could the WS conceivably be "invested" in his marriage when he refuses to give up his nights seeing the OW?

Julie, take ownership. I am sorry you are hurt, but this was done by your hand. That has to be recognized.

I do take ownership. I do. It is no fun being a victim, and I do not wish to be helpless anymore. (I've repeated that very statement to myself MANY a time, especially lately, when the "OH my God look what is happening to MEEEEee" kicks in.)

I do not agree that it was done by my hand. But clearly, I allowed. This is HIS hand. And my, "sigh, OK, I guesss...." That is wrong. Wrong for me. Wrong for my kids.

What if I'd stuck to more clear, concise boundaries? OH, well, I'll take a stab - I'd be (soon-to-be, at best) divorced.

He claims to have had an epiphany yesterday, while thinking about this. You see, since Saturday, we've been a little 'off'.

He was very apologetic - says he's sorry for blaming me for his unhappiness - he is the only one responsible for his personal happiness, and he was wrong to say I caused the lack thereof. I was happy to hear this- it is a realization that came to me while we were separated last year and it has really changed my life. He also apologized for wasting my time. I'm sorry he wasted it too. Says I deserve better and he wants nothing more than for me to be happy. He said truly, that's really a huge concern for him. And he wants me to find 'Mr. Right' but knows I can't if I'm still stuck w/'Mr. Wrong'. WTF?? He said he doesn't want to live a pseudo-life anymore, that there's no point in working on this only to act. Wow. Ouchie. Well, sort of ouch - I mean, grow up - you've got 2 kids.

Speaking of the kids, I did tell him (I've told him this before) that I will not sugar-coat this for them, I will not simply say, "mommy & daddy just don't get along/love each other" because that is NOT TRUE. I've told him before & re-iterated last night that I intend to raise my kids with MORALS - that doing WRONG in search of "personal happiness" is still WRONG and it is about to change who they are. AGAIN!!

He of course said, "so you're threatening me?!" Duh

I'm ashamed that I don't want to be alone. You know what I did last night? In bed, I allowed (encouraged, sought out, really) him to hold me as always. I did it because I know it's one sure-fire way to hook him - change his mind - remind him of what he just said he no longer wants. Sick, eh? No secrets.

OH yea, and, "I want to grow my beard long" (I HATE his beard long) "...and grow a mohawk again" (no comment needed) Because when he looks in the mirror & sees himself w/long beard & mohawk, that's who he likes. As it turns out I HATE - absolutely, vehemently LOATHE that guy. DRY DRUNK, anybody!?!?!? I told him this once. FYI, he doesn't like that moniker either. LOL I'd really like for my kids to have a MAN for a father! We don't get one. OH well.

So then, no Plan A. Time for Plan Julie. And you know what else? I knew I shouldn't have changed my name. I just knew it! For 9 yrs I'd always 'forgotten' to do it as it only comes up around tax time. The rest of the year I'd lived with an Alias. Since Sept though my new employer has really been on me. I did it, but it just didn't feel right. Yuck.

Hey Amazin, thanks for stopping in. I've read a lot of your posts too. Seems to be more parallels between my marriage & a lot of the marriages here than there once was. Meaning, I'm seeing a lot more alcoholism.

I don't think AA is the ONLY way. I believe some people can get & stay sober without it. Clearly my H isn't one of them, but he doesn't want it after all. I'm pretty sure he's destined to be one who goes to the grave w/a beer in hand. Because he wants to. He misses the "buzz" - "that's the only part. I don't miss the hangovers, the headaches, the bars, just the buzz"

I don't want to give up on him either, but I don't do "not giving up" well. I seem to throw myself under the bus. So maybe, instead of "giving up on him" I need to "REALLY get with me" and, let go and let God.

You're not threatening him, you're refusing to lie for him and cover for him.

Julie

Happy to see you post but sad with your situation. Last fall when I saw you post on the "in recovery" section I had hoped to see more from you.

Have or do you read in the Success stories 2 on GQ2 thread?

Princessmeggys story may strike a chord with your situation. The hope in it is with what she posted a few days ago about where her FW recovered alcoholic H is today. That is on a seperate thread. Make sure to look at the time lines of her whole story up to the present.

Isn't the problem with "US" Julie its not that we don't have bounderies... WE have problems enforcing them?

Most people have a problem when the "alcholic" label is PLACED on them. It offends them. I don't know your exact situation or circumstances so I can't make that evaluation nor is it my place to do so. Harley's MB concepts considers alcoholism a huge LB.

Your H may simply be insulted. H will not change UNTIL there is a real motivational reason for H to change. Usually the more its pushed-the more its pushed back. He probably will defend trying to prove He's not alcoholic more than anything else. This is where MB's is 100% right. Alcohol does become more important than the M itself.

WE who live with the "REAL" alcoholic know that ever so slowly our bounderies are broke - and broke- and broke - and broke again.

Until we have appropriate bounderies and a firm grasp on how to enforce the bounderies we place they mean absolutely nothing.


Did you ever read the book Bounderies-When to say yes-when to say no-TO SAVE YOUR LIFE? If you google it it will come up. It is really worth a read.

Keep going to Al-Anon. Keep posting and reading here.


I would apperciate it if you could stop by my thread and read the last few posts. I would value your input.


EDIT
I did not mean to imply that a person who recognizes alcoholism commits a LB. Alcoholism is the LB alone.
The word "it" left it vague-the intent of my sentance.


50 –YIKES!! BS
Married 27 yrs
A/CD treatment 8/1986
FWH 1987
Me N/C w/OW for 3 mo's after W asked me to give her up
Mutual agreement to get back together
DS 25 DD 15
Her
WW 44
EA/PA –1986/1987 A Ended after 1½ yr seperation-NC w/OM for 4 months-
Mutual agreement to get back together
A/CD treatment 1988 Relapse in 1998 6 treament programs since-none completed
EA/PA 2004?—10/2006? Mixed w/alcohol relapses-attempting to stay sober
Treatment 12/06 -Just wants to leave A in the past-“WE” know what to do
Until 3/2008 dry drunk-
Current-Mixed Alchohol relapses and brief dry stretches
EA? PA? ONS? Drunk?

The people who have a problem with that label are alcoholics who are in denial. That is not a lovebuster to state a true fact. It is harmful to an alcoholic to sugar coat this and pretend like he is a butterfly or a puppy when in reality he is an alcoholic.

And Julie, yes you might be divorced if you had observed boundaries with your husband. Does that mean that boundaries are a bad thing? Or does that mean that you would have to FINALLY accept the truth: that your H is an alcoholic and his love for alcohol comes first?

The unwillingness to observe boundaries has brought you to the SAME PLACE 3 times now. You keep doing this over and over again. This is why it is important to understand that YOU are the responsible party here. You knew the outcome going in.

Yes, you would be divorced if he would not respect your boundaries. And this has been going on so long that you would probably be well over this and into your next life by now. But we keep playing the same song over and over and over again.

Or, if boundaries had been observed, he might have had a REASON to quit drinking and change. But when you adhere to no boundaries and will take him back on HIS TERMS, he doesn't have to quit. He can continue to make half assed deals that always result in the same thing: him drinking again.

He has no motivation to quit drinking and has told you a million ways that he is willing to do nothing to make this marriage work. WHY WON'T YOU BELIEVE HIM? How many more times do you have to drag your kids through the gates of hell before you GET THAT?

What would you say to a WS who insisted on seeing his OW every Thursday night? Wouldn't you call that a deal breaker because you know recovery is impossible? it is the same with your situation. An alcholic who REFUSES to go to AA and insists on on going to the bar every Tuesday night is the same as the WS who won't end contact. AND THE RESULT IS THE SAME. You can see this with your own eyes.

This is GROUND HOG DAY.

The title should have been:

NEVER INVESTED - BUT I TOOK HIM BACK ANYWAY.......AGAIN

With ANY addiction, you know that sobriety and recovery are two different things.

My husband is a recovering sex addict, and I was actually in a codependent relationship with my parents-ready made for the role of codependent with an addict.

I'm not certain that my husband and I would have figured out the why's of our behavior by ourselves. For us, no, a 12-step program was not the answer. We both ended up with therapists who was trained in addiction issues.

People may sober up from addictions on their own, but to recover from addiction-addicts need help from someone, somewhere. After my experience, I'd be hard pressed to believe addicts can simply recover by themselves.

And recovery is the key to lasting sobriety.

No, it isn't bad that I'd still be divorced. It's just probably true. And I didn't know that! I mean, yea, I realize how I've set this up for the failure that it now is. I get that - now. I didn't before though. Of course I'd never intentionally drag my children thru this - not after all I've been thru, in learning to finally protect them!

I am surprised that this has come back to alcohol. Maybe that sounds like I'm fighting for the other team but I wasn't expecting it. By the time we fell asleep I was seriously thinking about how I had back-slid to a former, ugly self and how I had once again created an un-friendly, un-healthy, un-loving environment and how I had better get for real about seriously changing Crazy-Me or he's really going to leave this time! I wasn't calling Drunk. This is SO CONFUSING for me! Did he spin it? Did he manipulate me (again) into making me think I'm the problem? Am I really that far off-base & naive? Or am I leaving something huge out here, purposefully or accidentally, so that y'all can't see why this marriage is REALLY ending?

Mel, if you know one thing about me, and you know several, you know that I need to process things as I move thru them. I need to lay it all out, examine it, be kicked a few times, have this or that pointed out to me, etc. And if I know one thing about you, I know how frustrating my thought processes can be to you at times! I don't have to tell you how huge this is for me but I'll remind you that NO - this is not the life I intend to lead. I am not clear on what my next move will truly be (file for D today? kick him out tonight? email his mother (ha ha, I added that just for you)? tell the kids? keep quiet till x-y-z...?) but I'm getting there.

Right on this point. Alcoholism is a RESULT of a living problem. Unless you fix the living problem, the drinking problem will persist. Stopping drinking is only ONE STEP, the first one, in AA. All the others are focused on correcting the living problem.

A person who just dries out is nothing more than a dry drunk who is preparing for his next drink and is not in recovery. That is why AA is the answer. AA understands alcoholics whereas therapists, doctors cannot, and teaches them how to live without alcohol. Therapy cannot teach an alcoholic/addict how to live. Therapists and doctors come to AA to learn this for their own addictions. Therapy won't help in this regard with a chemical addiction.

IRN, thank you for your post. I agree 100%. And we've talked about counselling but lazied our ways out of actually going. Yesterday I reached out to the Pastor in the only church I've ever gone to. That was so weird! We've been playing phone-tag and I suppose I need to call him today to let him know it's too late now.

Anyway, aside from not enforcing AA or some other means like a counselor (one of my boundaries should have been non-negotiable steps toward recovery - for me and for H) I was still destined to fail because my H isn't addicted. Really, just ask him - he's not. He likes the camaraderie and he misses the buzz, but by no means is he addicted.

Besides, I'm horrible to live with...STILL...

Just an FYI, therapists come to AA for help, not the other way around. They don't know how to arrest alcoholism. Therapists come to AA for themselves and call us to take their clients to meetings. Therapy is not effective with alcoholics, nor is focusing on the WHY. In AA, they focus on behavioral change PERIOD. That is what works.

OH! How interesting. I had it backwards. I've been saying all along that sobriety doesn't fix our problems, but it makes them fixable. But if I read this correctly, then I've got that backwards?

So then because I've been back on the Crazy-Train myself (bad triggers & being more needy than I'm proud to admit, also not being very considerate of H consistently. Especially after the re-lapse when he drank in Dec - I've treated him like a drunk who's waiting to eff-up ever since) his recovery/sobriety was never to be? Is that right?


Bam. This is my life. Dammit.

Here is one thing I know about you, Julie, and that is that you are driven by FEELINGS and are good at developing rationales to support acting on those feelings. Otherwise we wouldn't be back here in the same place THREE TIMES. I have pointed out the same things to you about your husband since 2005. the SAME THINGS.

I went back and read some of my old posts to you and I was saying the very same things about your H back them. The same things.

You got it!! And you know I love you to death? right?