What I and Mr. W KNOW Aphelion is that the adultery is NOT an issue in our lives anymore - other than what we have learned from it...We are no longer the same two people...Our marriage is nothing like it once was...

You do make me laugh though with your "you would never admit it though" stuff...A way to try and shut others up - kind of an "assumptive close"...Seriously, lol...All are NOT you, therefore all do not function and think as you do...I know you will never admit it though!

Mrs. W

P.S. It's sad to me that you are still carrying around the WW/FWW handbook...We burned ours years ago...

Memorized then?

Allegories (as in symbolic representation) aside, it will still be a factor.

LOL @ the memorization thing...

Well, since it won't be happening I suppose this is a moot exchange...

Mrs. W

Bitter? No. I would think him markedly changed, since I offered a post-nup at what I considered to be the height of his unhappiness with me and he rejected it out of hand.

Basically it's just not his style, now or then. It also doesn't fit in with the way he sees himself. Most importantly, he doesn't view himself as a victim who is staying in an untenable situation with an unrepentant adulteress until he can make an ethical escape.

He doesn't share your waiting for the other shoe to drop mentality, Aphelion. He doesn't need to.

Wait a minute. Are you saying people don’t change? That’s my line. You stole my line!

… “the height of his unhappiness with me” … LOL, we have another it was the winter of his discontent author among us. A bit of an understatement I suspect. And typical minimizations of a WW/FWW.



I must say an ethical exit is better than an unethical exit. It’s better than an unethical staying, too. It’s more, err, ethical.


Not an answer. Not even close. Sorry, no cigar.

But it does raise another, obvious, question.

Why doesn’t he need to?


eta: All the shoes and boots and sandals dropped a long time ago. An entire closet of footwear hit the floor over several protracted years. Nothing left to drop, that I care much about now, actually. So I stick to my plan and I stick to my timeline. And the reasons are indeed ethical, in case you wonder. And in case you don’t.

Ahuman, I read that your husband went through this with very little supposrt from family and friends, as he wanted to keep this quiet. Has he had anyone to confide in besides you? I think it would help him if he could talk to other guys who have been through this.
These WW A's just do so much incredible damage to a man's self esteem and confidence. And, he does not have anyone to confide in that understands what this is like.
I could not imagine having to go through this nightmare alone for 5 years. Is there anyone that he could talk to, another man who has felt this betrayal. He must feel terribly alone.

Actually I think PK said that her husband has changed.


A vicious and unprovoked attack even for you Aphelion.

Big Kahuna is right: of course my H has changed. The last 3.5 years have changed a lot about both of us. There will continue to be change in our marriage and in us; that's a given.

I find it odd, Aphelion, that you base your argument on a fundamental lack of change in the WS. Change is the only constant in life. Nothing stays the same. Allow me use an analogy that you might be familiar with: are you still willling able to tackle a double black diamond, northface late in the day? I don't know about you, but my knees can't handle it anymore and my brain says that it would be foolish to risk it, based on the falls I've taken in the past on icy moguls. Furthermore - I don't even WANT TO. There's nothing appealing to me anymore about risking life and limb for a momentary thrill that actually is more panic inducing than thrilling. That's change of both a physical and mental nature.

I didn't realize that you were a Shakespeare fan. You're entitled to dislike my phrasing. I found it apt. My husband actually refers to that time as when he became insane. His word.

Be that as it may: you didn't like my answer, and you were not forthcoming with the macanudo. I thought I answered your question, which was, would I consider my H bitter if he were to ask for a post-nup? No, I would not. That word wouldn't even be on my top 100 list of adjectives. I presumed that the thrust of your question was how I would regard my husband were he to ask for a pre-nup. My answer was that I would regard him changed - or changed further if you will.

Could he decide to ask me for a pre-nup? Of course! Why? Because he is human and mutable. Would I agree to sign? Sure. Why? Because I don't take foolish risks any more with the relationship that I value above any other. I stick to the blue trails and I enjoy the scenery and the weather. I go for the single black diamonds, the ones that are steep, but without all the annoying bumps. I don't miss risking life and limb for a thrill. I look back at that part of my character that existed and I think: what a waste, and how selfish it was for me to wipe out on that slope and take a bunch of people down with me. I don't want to be that idiot anymore.

And my H understands that about me. He's seen it in action and has said that I've changed, which is why I do not believe that he is waiting for the WS in me to come out like a monster on Halloween.

As to ethical plans, I believe that a plan for your marriage is ethical only when you share it with your spouse. Otherwise it's just a secret plan. Secret plans, by their very nature aren't ethical.

Yeah alone.

Having your WS as your only sounding board is kinda like having your rapist as your therapist post-rape.

I agree. I felt pretty alone after dday. WW didn't want her or me to tell anybody. I wound up telling her family. And at the time it wasn't because of MB Principe of exposing - it was just becasue I wanted to vent to someone other then my WW. It turns out they supported me more then I expected which helped me out. That and finding these boards helped out a lot. Just reading about other people going trough similar issues as me made me think I wasn't crazy.

PK,

Now I have a picture in my mind of this neighborhood dog that used to run loose. A nasty dog at times. She is getting too old and slow to run around and poop on other's lawns and bite anyone now, and it would not be a serious bite anyway because she has few teeth left. I can tell she would still like to bite someone on occasion, but she is too creaky to get up and chase anyone, and too slow to get away with it afterwards. No changed attitude, really. Simply changed abilities.

Keep the old dog fed and warm, keep her various needs met and don’t LB her and she is happy to leave the neighborhood alone. She still dreams about sleek, fast cats though. Or maybe it's slow fat cats...

So, when you were in love with OM, or thought you were, or otherwise intentionally tea-bagging your brain in those lovely feel-good bonding and mating chemicals, you were young, active, and fully alive and you took what you wanted when you wanted it. It was nature, not nurture, to you. Now you are older and slower and not as alive as you used to be, and there are not so many pleasing opportunities nowadays as there used to be anyway.

Did I get that right?

Yeah, I agree. That’s definitely changing ones basic self all right.

Look, these metaphors are all well and fine. They are fun to use. But, bottom line? I do not believe the vast majority of WS in general and WW in particular, ever truly change who they are. They may change their activities (most simply get better at lying and hiding evidence) in the sense of learning how to evaluate marginal utility (costs start to outweigh benefits) before they decide to cheat, and the others simply more or less just peter out, period.

The WS is still in there somewhere, even though it is chained to the cellar wall on Halloween.

Re plans – Think long term severely abused wife receiving advice on how to prepare to get away from her abuser, with her children, and not be followed. It takes time and planning and setting some minimal emergency resources aside. It takes creating a place to go to. She better play that close to her chest or even those slim chances at rescue and salvation will be foiled.

And for those WS, F or not, that haven’t figured it out yet, adultery is egregious spouse abuse. When it is multiple and long term adulteries, as on this thread, there is no reason or requirement whatsoever for the BS to confide their hopes and plans to the WS. There is every reason to suspect, no matter what the WS happens to be oh, so sincerely saying, the WS will act against them.


PS: As old as I am, I still do the entire mountain. The kids are faster than I am now, but I can tell they let me win a race once in a while.

I don't have the same impression of you that Alph seems to. I do not see that it is merely the fact that there are less opportunities or that you have slowed down that motivates you. I'm not sure how old you are. But, if the A was 57 years ago, you are still quite young and I doubt it is for lack of opportunity you have foregone further infidelity.

As a matter of fact, biologically, at your age you are moving into a time where you will most likey have a higher drive in this area from a physical standpoint alone. So, the old, tootless dog analogy would not seem to apply, either.

I'm fairly long in the tooth and I know folks can change, not just their actions but their consciences can evolve and they can develop empathy. It is not true that folks that no longer lie and cheat neccessarily do it strictly because external things, like opportunity or ability have diminished.

If that were the case, why would it be exclusive to infidelity situations?

In my work, I've seen some people that were truly badasses change from within. Part of the process of changing did include exposure to consequences and deprivation of opportunity to repeat the offnses( as I mentioned, this does not seem to be the case in your situation).

Regardless of whether some external forces played a role in the change, it is clear that internal changes are also taking place.

My Dad was a temendously abusive alcoholic. He was a brilliant lawyer, graduating from Harvard with a request that he stay on and teach. He was one of the meanest, nastiest guys you would ever want to come across when he was drinking(which was ALL the time).

His career started to crash and he was losing his family when he finally took steps to stop. He never lost the urge to drink but he did take steps to stop hurting everyone.

I do not know how anyone can look into your heart and know that you still would like to cheat. I don't think you do. But, even if you did, so long as you restrain yourself, you are not hurting others.

Great post, Zelmo!

You may be correct. I simply rephrased what PK herself wrote using a different metaphor.

OK, already burned out on adultery at a young and tender age then.

Not likely, that I have seen. Mostly depends on what they have done and how long they have been doing it. And especially not with adulterers. I'm probably longer in the tooth than you and I have seen a lot more adulterers.

According to MB scripture, everyone wants to cheat. It is primarily a lack of opportunity and less than total EN satiation (read: lulling the adulterers to sleep) that separates the players from the bench warmers. (I don’t agree with this, BTW. I have had dozens of blatant opportunities over the years, all while none of my ENs were being met in the least, yet I didn't because I thought adultery is a mortal sin, unethical and over-all harmful to me and my family. It was very difficult to restrain myself, as you say. But restrain myself I did.

I made a promise once upon a time that I would never do that. I have kept that promise even when sorely tempted over long periods of time. I am reassessing my position on this promise lately, though. Adultery players seem never to lose anything much, actually, irl. Caught or not, adultery seems a thing of minor consequence to the adulterer, all things considered equal; and as I read the posts of the so-called FWSs around here my wandering thoughts are confirmed.

Is it satisfactory to you to be married for life to an adulterer who wants to continue to adulterate their marriage, their family and their closest personal relationships, but does not only because they can’t figuratively get it up any more? Adulterers who don’t have more affairs only because they fear the consequences and are white-knuckle controlling their passions? They want to have more affairs and they would if they could get away with it. Consistently meeting their EN’s keeps them content but watch out if you ever miss one or, heaven forbid, meet the EN but not in the precise and exact way they want it to be met.

What kind of a marriage is that?

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot – an MB marriage.

Aphelion, I find it very odd that you believe you are in a position to question anyone's marriage. Isn't your wife in a very long term affair? And didn't you find out recently she is still in touch with her lover?

You have been here almost 5 years and yet your W has not ended contact with her OM. So, I understand why you see other WS' through such a bitter lens.

But how do you justify criticizing others for staying in marriages that suffered adultery, even after the affair has ended, when you stay in a marriage where the adultery has NOT ended?

What kind of a marriage is that?

In addition to what Mel said, your wife still works with the OM.

Well it may be time to give up the ghost when I am forced to compare myself to an old toothless dog. Fortunately I love dogs, even old and toothless ones.

Aphelion, my A ended shortly after the turn of the millennium. Since my H didn't know of my A, let alone that I had ended it, he didn't have the opportunity to "meet my needs" as you put it. In fact, he was at the height of what I refer to as his "independent period". I was far from old at the time.

My change was from within, not from without. Telling my H about the A was the nail on a door I had already slammed shut and never opened again. Unfortunately that nail went right through his heart.

But enough about me.

You brought up an issue that I have often wondered about. You say (and have said before) that you have had several opportunities for an A, but have never pursued them. My H insists that no one has ever come on to him because he "doesn't give off that kind of vibe".

Now, my H is a very good looking guy with all the trappings of success and a lot of contact with the general public. Have you ever wondered if you are unintentionally giving off the vibe of someone who may be interested...even if he is not?

This is my take. First , I was married to a person very much like the type of Ws Aphe decribes, a true sociopath or NPD. He is right, some folks are as he described, merely constained by circumstances rather than internal forces, like a conscience.

At first, it was very difficult for me to resist lumping all WS into the same bag as my XW(did I mention she is a vicous sociopath :MrEEk:). The first year or so out, I was so pissed off, I'd pick fights with any WsS that crossed my path(got my butt handed to me, sometimes. I am not as articulate as Aphe).
But, after a while, I began to realize that my XW was an extreme case , someone that was many standard deviations away from a person with even a vestigal conscience.

The temptation, when you are hurt and humiliated by this infidelity stuff is to become very doctrinaire.

Aphe, as you admit, it seems unlikely this young woman has no opportunity or lacks the sex drive to stop her from having affairs. I think it is reaching to say that it is burnout from affairs, as well since,in the grand scheme of things, as compared to some really hardened cases, she is a rookie with only one PA and one EA to her credit. Makes no sense that it is burnout in that sense.

I've not met too many adulterers, but I've represented murderers, rapists, thieves and truly violent folks. Some,a great percentage, are really scary. There are only a couple variables they weigh before deciding to act, a primative cost/benfit-risk/reward analysis that dictates their actions. No reference is made in their minds to morality or the effects on others. But, some of them really do change and lead lives decades long trying to make amends and help people.
I don't think adulterers are more amoral than other types of offenders. So, with a 5 year track record of keeping her nose clean and an apparent deisre to fix what she broke, I don't think we can say she is abstaining due to lack of opportunity or libido.

I have NEVER read anything so ridiculous in my life. I don't want to "continue to adulterate my marriage" because I am very happy in my marriage.


I DO NOT WANT AFFAIRS. I WOULD NOT HAVE ANOTHER AFFAIR. I AM NOT "CONTROLLING" ANY DESIRES, PASSIONS ETC ETC

I appear to be in the Catch 22 situation (according to Aphelion) of now being happy but it's a Catch 22 because (according to Aphelion) I shouldn't be happy. I should continue to suffer the rest of my days.



ETA: Aphelion has me on ignore but it sure felt good to get that out!

Well, that is just it, Kiwi. There is no evidence, merely specualtion, that this young woman continues to desire affairs. But, I think just about all of us have done things in our past that we no longer have the desire to do. And, how does one go about proving that the desire to change is based on having a different perspective or a conscience vs the threat of consequences or the inability to "get it up".
In this woman's case, she is young and in good health, ostensibly with her libido intact. And, presumably, with a good looking successful husband, she is probably an attractive package, as well. So, what has made her remain faithful for 5years?
I got kicked off SI for repeatedly advocating divorce and lumping WS's together. You and I exchanged PM's and talked about our dads, once.
I was uber pissed about this, like I think Aphe is. He's normal. His wife is treating him like crap and seems his hands are tied for some reason.
But, clearly, it is no more valid to lump all WS's into the remorseless than any other type of person that f's up.