Thanks Zelmo. I agree there are many hopeless situations. Sometimes the definition of success IS divorce.

This is where I wish there were statistics. There are different types of WS's (and BS's for that matter). I realize a newly betrayed BS is likely not thinking clearly, but it would be nice to be able to recommend one course of action over another with some data to back it up.

I am not following you. How would the plan of action differ?

No, I think it's important to be up front about the probability of success. Reading here, one gets the impression that MB works, period.

We know that while most marriages that experience infidelity don't end, most of those that survive are not really good based on the numbers in those studies.

Aggressive custody-battle vs. typical Plan A/B. Plan A vs. Plan FU. Even how long of a Plan A.

Aphelion is spot on ... I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but TRIAGE is what is needed here to effectively address each BS's individual situation and circumstances.

As this discussion has evolved, it is quite obvious that men and women (both betrayed and wayward) react differently to an A. Within those differences, we see varying degrees of strengths and weaknesses within each sub-group, but MB (as is promoted on these forums) is essentially a one-size-fits-all approach, and any deviation from that model is usually shouted down by a dozen or so vets ***edit***

I also find it quite interesting that when a particular BS is counselling directly with the Harleys and also participating on the infidelity forums that the respective advice given from each source seldom (if ever) matches. It also seems that the Harley's are much more inclined to modify the MB plans to individual circumstances than the board vets, and that is to be expected ... they ARE the professionals, but that doesn't mean that they are infallible or that it doesn't present us with an opportunity to evaluate our own preconceived notions.

My frustrations (and I assume others as well) is that the board vets are reluctant to even consider advise that they may feel is "outside of the box", which usually leads to someone getting aggravated, followed by a defensive reply, followed then by the inevitable Catch 22 thread meltdown.

This site has a lot of good questionaires for us to learn more about ourselves, our spouses and our relationships. Therefore, it would seem to make logical sense to incorporate a "BS Personality Questionare" that would be completed, copied/pasted and posted by a newbie BS so that they can gain insight into their own individual situations & circumstances and other posters could review it to use in advising that particular BS by seeking out similarities and differences to their own or other forum stories of success or failure.

I've learned that its useless to simply ***edit*** about something unless you can offer a solution to improve the situation.

Thoughts???

I agree with Revelation on this. But, I ma not sure "personality" is the right way to describe what needs assessing in the BS. This is just semantics, but I think "values" or "philosophy" or something similar is what needs to be assessed. You'll find all tyoes of different personalities, but the main difference in BS's seems to be in the tolerances they have for getting past this cheating thing.Guy could be mellow as heck, but this could still be a dealbreaker for him. Same with a hotheaded guy that may , for whatever reason, be able to let this slide.
It seems to me that, in addition to the BS's slant on this reconciliation thing, the WS's character etc is critical in assessing the likelihood of reconciling.
I've never completely understood this fog thing and being seperate from somone's true character. I've been in love before and I've broken up with folks when it was not working out. I could not ever imagine myself treating another human being as I see some WS's doing under any circumstances. I could see falling out of love with my spouse. I could see falling in love with someone else. But, I could not see myself driving someone nuts with gaslighting, getting incredibly mean and hostile, berating and blaming my spouse or girlfriend like isee Ws's do.
I know, there is the analogy to drug addiction. But, really, drug addiction seems different. There are actual chemical changes in the brain that are way more pronounced than those love produces.
Seems if you have a really cruel WS, it may be time to really think about both the likeliehood of the Plans working, as well as the desirability of getting back together.

I like the idea of a questionairre and I agree it should encorporate more than simply personality. It should also address aspects of the WS, if it's a first A or how many, how long its been going on, has the WS stated they want to try to recover or has the WS moved out, and how much time since d-day before the BS found MB. I believe if you could gather data from enough affairs, you could tweek out the things that improve and/or worsen the chances of recovery. But even running a survey on this site would be biased - many BS's don't stick around after their M either recovered or ended.

Not withstanding this brilliant reply ...

Just give me the citation.

For someone to state that 80% of affairs end during Plan B is disingenuious.

If it's true they can point out where they saw the stat.

It would appear to me that since Plan B has an 80% effective rate in ending affairs and Plan A has a 15% chance that B stands for 'Better'.

After all, everyone wants the 'fastest horse'.

I don't think Plan B works very well without an effective Plan A beforehand, though...

The point of Plan A and B together is to improve the chance of marital recovery. Plan A leaves the best impression of the BS before they go dark in Plan B. Plan B protects whatever love the BS has remaining for the WS while the affair dies a natural death. If one were to immediately jump to Plan B upon D-day, that would be more of a Plan D than anything. And 95% of those affairs would still end within 2 years, statistically speaking. But it's less likely the WS would return to the M in that case.

I think that plan A is also important to show the WS that the affair can be forgiven. If the WS thinks that they are doomed to a life of having the affair held over their head, there is less motivation for coming back to the marriage.

JMO

I also think that plan B is more suited for keeping the BS from growing to hate the WS so that BS will be willing to atempt recovery once the affair ends. (Which it will 95% of time).

So in my opinion:
Plan A is to show the WS that recovery is possible AND is worth it.

Plan B is to keep BS willing for recovery once affair ends.

But this probably has little to do with original posters question.

I didn't wish to really ask much other than to have a discussion about the cost/benefit analysis of saving a marriage where a wife has cheated. I can only discuss this issue from a man's perspective. I also think that WHs are very different that WWes. I think the intensity of the emotions for the WW, in general, is worse than for a WH.

I also wanted to discuss the idea that hopelessness is a feeling which keeps a BH from doing the tough things that need to be done when it comes to understanding that there are perfectly viable alternatives to appeasement of a WW.

I believe fear of losing children has the ironic effect of causing BHes to be afraid of doing things and entering a legal system which most men believe is very biased in favor of women.

My goal, indeed my mission, of staying on these boards is to inform the BHes that not only is the court system theoretically neutral, it really works to a BH's advantage to take aggressive action to protect his rights as a father.

What is ironic is that the very fear of taking action by a BH is often what leads to the very outcome he wishes to avoid while acting hardcore to protect his rights as a father (which go hand in hand with children's rights, from my perspective) has the effect of often lifting a WW from a fog because WWes often have a delusion that they will keep the children and introduce a substitute dad for the kids and that life will carry on for them as normal with the only difference being that BH is out of her life.

A court order is a big slap of reality.

It worked on MM's wife. I think it would work on most WWes as long as the man is a capable father who takes aggressive action.

I'm one of the men who was a victim of the fallacy of assuming that courts automatically favored women.

They don't. They favor stability and they favor proactive parents who truly have their kid's interests at heart.

I also look at my life now and think about where it is and the freedom I have and the opportunities I have which would not have been there if I was fighting a grueling recovery process.

I don't think that recovery would have gone well in my case. The love for my WW would have slowly died and her cheating would have eaten at me over time so that every new "illness" she faced would have been thrown on top of a man who was already a bit jaded with her pleas for attention.

I feel bad for my kids because they deserve better than this, but for recovery in my case the exww would have had to essentially become a different woman than who she is.

Unless she changes, I forsee her going from caretaker partners to caretaker partners. No man is perfect and that is a very high demand to live up to.

Which is exactly why every BH that comes here should be advised to use their WW's "fog" to get the best possible custody arrangement.

Plan A can start once you've lawyered up.

Because as we've been told here, Plan A has a 85% failure rate and a proper Plan B requires someone to move.

What's the MB percentage for affairs ending? Or ending within 2 years, even?

WS-Gray's affair will be hitting the 2-year mark this year. I think they will get married once OWH's divorce is final. (Including the month-long waiting period.)

Charlotte

IMHO, its hope that keeps them from doing the tough things. They hope that if they continue to be "generous" and accomodating, their WW will eventually reciprocate.

I don't think I'd plan A or plan B again. If I end up divorced again from an unfaithful or walk-away wife, I doubt I'd try again. I'd take that as a sign I'm not fit for marriage and just do my own thing.

Let me try to break this down...

If you do NOTHING to break up an affair, it is 95% likely to end within two years. Whether anything is done in the way of Plan A, B, C, D or FU, 95% of ALL affairs are over within two years.

The reason they end is not a single reason and no single reason can be said to be at work in all affairs coming to an end.

But a set of things that are common to all affairs are also common to that 95%. These same things that are common to all affairs tend to make them less stable than other romantic relationships. They include but are not limited to, dishonesty, selfishness, lack of empathy, guilt, poor grasp of the real versus fanciful delusions and a host of other things that tend to make a relationship unstable.

So, of all affairs, 95% will end within the first two years no matter what is done by the BS.

15% of affairs end while a BS is actively engaged in Plan A. Some of these might actually have ended during this same time frame with no input from the BS but Plan A is not just seeking to end the affair but also to make the BS stronger, more confident, less inclined to be emotionally unstable and reactive and a bunch of other ancillary benefits. Plan A is effectively creating in the BS someone who can cope with the rigors of recovery. So while some of these affairs will end no matter what the BS does, the ones who were able to get a handle on their own stuff and actively pursue a Plan A are more likely to be able to work at actual recovery without as much of a learning curve.

Part of this I think has to do with the things that are the mainstays of Plan A for any BS. These things are learning to identify and meet ENs, identifying and learning to take control over Love Busters and understanding that missed expectations cause much of the uncertainty in their life. Now these things are all needed during recovery. But more importantly they are all required for a marriage to remain vibrant, growing and successful into the future. The ones who learn these things in Plan A are WAY ahead of the curve as opposed to most of the general population.

Now we know that 95% of affairs end within two years and only 15% have ended during the time period set aside for Plan A. Simple arithmetic tells us that this number that ends within two years and did not end during the Plan A time frame is in fact 80% of the total of all affairs. Since this is the time frame for which Plan B is described, to wait beyond Plan A to see if the affair will be part of the 95% at all it can be said that those 80% end during Plan B, though in reality that does not mean that Plan B was the reason that they ended since they would have ended anyway if they were part of the 95% that crash within the first two years.

Now a lot of people take exception with the 95% number and point to how many people they know who have relationships that began as a affair and the happy couple is still together some number of years beyond the two during which we have said 95% of all affairs end.

But here's the thing that is being lost. Look around a room full of people in any setting and if there are 100 married couples as many as 70 -75 of those couples one, the other or both spouses have actively cheated on their spouse. When you consider that the number for ALL affairs is so huge to think that everyone knows at least one couple whose affair lasted longer than that is not much of a stretch. If everyone on these forums knows just 1 that is hardly a dent in the remaining 5% of all affairs so there has to be a lot more that none of us know about.

Plan B is what Dr Harley recommends for folks who want to save their marriage and try to reconcile after they have done Plan A without the results they sought BECAUSE of these numbers, not to facilitate them. Since 95% of all affairs will be over within two years NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, Plan B is a way to wait that long to see if your WS falls into the last 5% and Dr Harley doesn't think ANYONE should have to put their life on hold for longer than that, since the longer an affair goes on beyond 2 years the more likely it is to survive 5, ten, 50 or forever.

In other words, if you divorce before two years is up you have given up a 95% probability that the affair will end before you divorce. If our goal is to not divorce then waiting at least two years should be an easy leap with no citation needed.

The interesting thing about data of any kind that I find fascinating is that those who have already made up their minds as to the conclusion are the ones who just can't buy into the data. I can quote a survey of 500 people and give a percentage that say that they are not happy with their marriage and hardly anybody bats an eye. But if I say that a certain percentage are not happy because they were Christians and their spouses were not, someone will question the validity of the percentage, someone else will want to know how the survey was conducted and 2 more will question the sample. Three will ignore the conclusion because they have anecdotal evidence of things other than differing religions being cause of unhappiness in marriage in at least one case and at least one more will never accept it because he can't see the fuss because he is universalist and can't imagine why anyone would be unhappy over any religion. And a whole bunch of folks will offer various alternate conclusions to be drawn from the same set of data.

Break time is over, back on my head...

Mark

ok, lets use some math AND logic, IAM. That will be our "citation." Here we go:

If 95% of affairs end within 2 years but only 15% of affairs end in Plan A, how much is 95 minus 15?