Hi cat! I'm glad to see you back updating your own thread! I was wondering how your Christmas went. I'm glad the past week has gone well.

*hugs* I'm sorry he got so mad. I think you are prolly right, he was mad and disappointed cus he'd hoped to surprise you. FWIW if I had found a wrapped present like that, I would have carefully put it right back where I found it, and gone to a very different part of the house to clean. But you aren't wrong if that wasn't your instinct. I'm just wondering, did that occur to you, and did you proceed to put the things on the counter for a reason? Just wondering.

Also, I can think of ground rules you could set for yourself to prevent things like this in the future, but I'm not sure they would work in your case. For example, I'm thinking of a rule I really like in my house: you don't touch someone else's stack of stuff, because moving it around or changing the order of the stack is crazy-making, *to me*. I actually do know where things are, in which stack and how far down in the stack, as long as no one else rearranges it. But from what you've said, this would mean an uncontrollable clutter over every conceivable surface in your house, which doesn't work for you at all. Another option would be for him to have a certain place to put things he doesn't want disturbed; but I think you already have that, and this bag was left in the middle of the kitchen floor. So I can see your dilemma.

Hi jayne. Just wanted to let you know you were right. I knew I'd be taking a chance moving that bag, but like you said as well, NOT moving it would mean I had to live with it sitting in my living room for as much as several months. I'm just not willing to live with that any more. I guess I'm more disappointed that I've been bending over backwards to meet his needs, and yet he still acts like a 7 year old when something doesn't go his way, shaking his head for my benefit, plopping into the chair, pouting, staring off into space for 30 minutes.

I guess I'm just not ready to put the effort into working on our communication issues. I mean, he's doing so much more now, fixing things around the house, actually throwing away a thing or two, so I'm really heartened. I'm just being selfish and wanting too much.

Aw hon, I wasn't calling you selfish! I understand your history, and why you were reluctant to leave something sitting in the middle of the floor. Without that history, I was just saying what my response would've been. But I haven't been living in your house all these years.

And I think the point isn't what you should've done for this one particular incident anyway, is it? Yeah sure you could make a rule about not moving his things for a certain amount of time or something... or what you could do if you find a wrapped package... but I think the fact that you realized it might be intended as a surprise, and you still took it out of the bag and put it on the counter, is saying something. That you reject his gift? That you'd value DS more than Gifts? That you aren't open to receiving from him?

I think you still have your walls up, as I still have mine up. I think it's hard for us to risk allowing that our H's are getting better. Safer just to stay in our comfort zone.

I recently re-read something here I'd read before- that often the spouse who is the last to feel better about the M is the spouse who IS applying the MB principles. The other spouse starts feeling better cus the one trying starts by eliminating LBs and meeting ENs.

So maybe you're in that murky region where H starts to get the picture and starts trying to meet your needs, but you're still cautious, skeptic, in withdrawal. Does that seem to fit?

Sorry, I don't have any words of wisdom; just thinking that if you can look at it objectively, the way you do others' problems, you may see what you want to do.

See, though, that's the point. I DO value DS more than gifts. He KNOWS I do. At least he should, if he would ever listen to me say all I want is help.

On the other hand, if that's not what he's going to do, here's more pity me mood. I spent probably $1000 on him for Christmas. I know, I shouldn't have, but there were so many things he needed, like money to fix his oil leak, new floor mats for his car, a new suit. I would've spent more, if I'd have had it. He got me a camera to replace the camera he gave me two years ago, which I lost on the first trip we took it on. Neither of which I asked for or wanted. And he gave me a couple little tubes of hand lotion and a free gift from Estee Lauder. I've been hinting for 6 months that I wanted new patio furniture to replace the cheap KMart stuff we bought 13 years ago. We even talked about it. And I've even opened up to him about how I've learned that because of my past, I'm very sensitive to having a run-down house, and how important a good-looking house is. And I got a camera.

Yes, he painted the kitchen. But that's only because he doesn't trust me to not mess it up.

Maybe people just shouldn't be married for 30 years.

Hi Cat:

I've been meaning to read your thread; you've been so helpful to me regarding my H. You're right, there are a lot of similarities between both men, though there are lots of differences as well.

What you described with the gift--I can see myself doing something similar. My individual therapist says I'm a master of passive-aggressive resistance. Ironically, I'm not confrontational-averse--except with him. I've allowed him to bully me into that position over the years. So I "fight back" with passive-aggressive techniques such as moving his stuff around when I know it will tick him off. It's my way of saying "move your crap" without having to confront him.

FWIW, if you can get him back into counseling: I don't hold out much hope that our counselor can fix our problems but one thing he's done that's helped me enormously is validate my feelings. I'll say something in counseling session and is my H's habit, he'll take it out of context, or go off on a tangent about it, or misunderstand it and turn it around on me. But our counselor will stop him and say "I didn't hear her say that". Hallelujah!

OurHouse, thanks for visiting! Yeah, I PA out of fear of confrontation. I've mentioned 3 times in the last 6 months that I'd like him to join me in IC, and each time he doesn't even acknowledge that I've spoken. I'm too chicken to press the point, to avoid his anger. I think I may get to the point where I can say 'if you don't go to IC with me, then I can't stay here.' But I'm not ready for that yet.

The gift thing...is just weird. He has one whole cabinet, 4 shelves, in the kitchen that is now just full of his stuff, he puts it there so he doesn't have to go through it and make decisions, I guess. Anyway, there is one wrapped present up there from Christmas about 3 or 4 years ago. At one point, I actually took it down and asked him who it was for, and he said I don't know or some nonsense statement; he just put it back up there. I guess this one will go up there, too. He sometimes keeps gifts lying around for when he forgets to buy one, so he'll have something to give me. Doesn't that make me feel special, lol.

Given what you've said about his childhood, I'm not so sure I'd make a big deal about the gift thing (though it *is* sort of humorous--LOL). It sounds like a form of hoarding to me and it's not surprising since he grew up with nothing. It sounds like having the shelf for his things is a good compromise? (a word my H hates by the way....).

My H is also the world's biggest slob. His stuff is never put away (except his work suits and shoes--WHEN he was working). I hate it when he does a home improvment project because his tools lay around for weeks or more, until I move them (back to the wrong place) or I risk a confrontation asking him to move them. BUT, when something of mine, the kids' etc., is in HIS way, boy, do we hear about it!

My PA response to that is to just take his stuff and move it to a place where it's out of my sight an if it's not put away properly, I don't care. His clothes wind up piled on a shelf on his side of the closet--all bunched up. His tools wind up in a stack on the garage or shed floor. And so on.

Yeah, BTDT. If there was a space left in our garage to put anything that wasn't already filled with his junk, I would, lol. And he's already got at least 6-8 boxes of junk sitting on his side of the bed, under the bed, under the dresser, now he's starting to fill up the dresser drawers again. He had one drawer that had at least 20 remote controls in it. I have been taking any kind of electronic stuff he leaves like that, and putting it all in his office. Even put labels on the drawers on the cabinet in there, so he could find it all easier.

I really couldn't care less about that present, especially since I know it's Estee Lauder, and that's what he gives me every year even though I told him I don't want any more; I was just upset about getting the pouting/silent treatment for doing something with his bag that he was never going to get around to picking up.

H is the opposite from yours about the projects. He will work 3 days straight, without sleep, to finish a project. He won't even sit down to eat until it's done. And if I make a move to do anything but stand right beside him helping him, I get chewed out. Christmas Eve, he wanted to finish painting the kitchen cos my family was coming over in the morning, so we never went to sleep til the next night.

Hi y'all, can I ask some questions here, for my own benefit? Sort of a T/J except it's about what y'all are discussing, I just wanna change the focus to me for a sec I'm not usually selfish but cat, can I borrow your thread just a moment? I'd ask on my own thread but it fits in so perfectly with these last few posts!

So, I tend to be more of a slob than my H. My H tends to be neater, and has a specific place for everything and everything in its place. Even the towels on the towel rack must be folded a certain way. (I resisted initially, cus at least where I grew up it was too humid for folded towels to dry completely, so I would purposely hang the used damp towels over the rack in a fluffed-up, unfolded way. But here they seem to dry ok so I fold the towels his way.)

So I keep feeling guilty and feeling like I'm like MrCat. I would leave a stack of papers somewhere and H would move it and then something vitally important would go missing and I'd ask H where he moved the stack and he would say he didn't remember. I would lose hours of time, time I didn't have to spare, looking for things that were moved. I would be upset at H but also upset at myself, because sure, in a perfect world I wouldn't have left those things there.

So I figured it was my fault.

But now, in our new house, things are happening that are making me wonder if it is possible to be perfect enough for H... and besides, do I really need to feel required to be *perfect* in my own home?

He's done things like refuse to let me keep a box of Kleenex on the bathroom counter, until after I've put one there several times only to have him remove it, and I pleaded and reasoned with him several times. (I'm not talking about an ugly used box of tissues. I'm talking about a normal, new box of tissues that he picked out himself at the store.) So when he finally *allowed* me to keep a box of tissues on the counter, he acted all "magnanimous".

(He actually used that word recently, in a different context but describing himself, as in he was being magnanimous. As in, I said "Why did you do that?" He said, "I was being magnanimous." Me: "Well I wouldn't describe it as magnanimous, I thought you should be apologizing!" Him: "Ok, I apologize.")

Then there's the glass jar (decorative, not just a mason jar; with a nice lid with a plastic seal along the outer edge of the lid) that he removed from the kitchen counter. Details on my thread; cat's already read it so I won't repeat it here.

Now I really don't think things like decorative glass jars or boxes of tissues on counters mean that I am leaving an unbearable mess around the house. Does it?

So anyway, something OH said struck me:


So, my question to y'all is, could this be what my H is doing? If so, what should I do? Should I start moving his stuff around? I've done that before, but he didn't seem to get the point plus I feel childish. But it was quite funny when I hid his underwear LOL!!!

Maybe y'all can teach me how to respond to such things? I seem to be greatly lacking in "feminine wiles". I think I slept through that girl course, or wasn't invited to that slumber party or something. LOL

Jayne, I see two issues. One is that your H has an extraordinary need to be organized, anal, if you will. Kinda pretty common for the scientific/mathematical type. It is reassuring to him to have specific places for things, calming. So in that respect, I think you have to respect his need.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean you two have to live his way only. That's not fair, and impractical. That said, knowing your H's need, and I say this with total compassion for you, I think it might help you to do a little mental housecleaning as to how to run a household. Meaning, as you said, there is not just one way to fold a towel. There is not just one way to file papers. Or set up a kitchen. Or plan out activities. Or...

I totally agree that you need to get your H on your side as far as respecting your wants/needs as much as his, but I think you need to respect his need for order. Can you take a course on office organization? Learn a new way to file papers? Just the other day, I read an article about a better way to use Microsoft Outlook so that you have an empty email inbox at the end of every day, and I'm working hard to learn to replace my old email habits with these new ones. I get that your natural tendency is to be more carefree about things, but I can imagine that this is one area where you can totally fill your H's bank by changing.

You can research, you can hire an office organizer, you can go to a store and look into paper handling products that allow you to touch a piece of paper only once, twice if necessary (the key to organization).

What do you think?

Cat has some great suggestions. I agree that the effort on your part will go a long way.

A few other things to consider are to establish some areas, rooms, space, etc., where you can feel free to live a more cluttered existence. For instance, a basket on the kitchen counter where you can put all your papers and not have to worry about them being alphabetized, filed, etc. That way, the countertops stay pristine, the basket is attractive and doesn't look out of place so it's pleasing to your husband's eye, but it's YOUR place to put YOUR papers. You can also agree to mark off an entire room, if you have enough space, or maybe a desk/portion of a room, in the same manner.

I think if you both talk it out, and agree on a solution, you'll both be able to live with it without feelings of resentment.

Thanks for the suggestions, and for the reality check!

I am totally open to learning organizational skills from him. I am trying to pick up his good habits, both at home and at work. I even "brag" to other people who remark on something like my taking notes on the computer during conference calls, who say I must be really organized, I say anything good like that I learned from H cus it sure didn't come naturally! LOL (In saying such things I'm remembering that one of his biggest ENs is Admiration, and that it's good to not just say admiring things to the person but also to brag about him to others. It helps your own attitude and who knows what might get back to him.)

And I *love* things like organizers, organizational software, self-help organizational books... so much that I think they don't help me cus I waste too much time with them. I get too wrapped up in them, I'm too much of a perfectionist and can't ever apply the things in real life cus I never get the first things done perfectly. FlyLady is good cus she stresses accepting imperfection - do what you can in a fixed amount of time, then move on.

I can try to be more accommodating to H's wishes to have the house organized. I like it that way too. I think I've been doing that a lot here in the new house, because we have enough room and we have nice things finally. He's even remarked on how I am keeping things straightened up. I've even been hanging things up all facing the same way, putting the fiesta ware plates in the cabinets arranged according to ROY G. BIV, etc.

The thing with the jar, it was a simple but decorative jar so I wouldn't think it was clutter. It wasn't put on the counter that typically accumulates the clutter, it was put right beside the other glass containers of sugar, flour, etc., which were right where *he* put them, near the coffee pot and the espresso machine, near the cabinets with the coffee and tea supplies and cups, near the microwave. All in a neat row under the window. I just added one small jar to the end of the row of jars that *he* had put there, in a row from largest to smallest. In fact the largest jar is the flour one, it's quite large because I bake bread so I use a lot of flour. I wanted that jar closest to the area where I would probably be mixing the dough, so that's where I put it when I unpacked it. When I found it over near the coffee and sugar, I told H why I wanted it on the other side. He insisted it stay in the line of the other containers. That's where it still is now.

So any discussion is me explaining to him that I prefer someplace different from where he's placed something (even if I was the one who unpacked it and had it elsewhere), and he just says that I'm wrong, it doesn't belong there. If I pester him and justify my reasons enough he will sometimes give in to me, but at that point it's the fact that my opinions don't matter much that bothers me more than where a stupid trinket is kept. I just think I should have a say, and he thinks I shouldn't - unless it's something he doesn't care about, like which of my drawers I use for my underwear, my shirts, etc.

Since we've moved here, the clutter on the counter has been mostly his and/or the kids. Mostly cus he doesn't like using the things I bought to keep the kids' schoolwork in. And he left a big box on the counter for several weeks that contained some huge snow boots he ordered but was going to return. If it had been my box, the box would've been in some corner of the garage where I'd never find it again until too late to return. I left his box alone, but when his parents visited at Thanksgiving I finally asked if he was going to move it.

It's generally acknowledged that my side of the bedroom I can keep however I want.

Sorry for the T/J, we can take it back to my thread now, I just thought it fit in with what y'all were discussing, with understanding why someone moves things, the passive-aggressive part of it, should I start doing that, etc.

I did a major LB tonight. You know how H is always complaining about his job and company, and how I was always giving my 2 cents about how he could fix it, and you all showed me how to stop doing that and just let him decide what to do, even if he's screwing up (sorry)? Well tonight he told me the owner is bringing in two more guys (!) above him, and most likely paying them double what H is making. So he goes on and on and on about it, whining about how he's being kicked down the ladder so to speak, and I finally blew it, couldn't take it any more. You know the story. He was promised X salary, got 80% of it. Was promised autonomy, ended up having to run everything through his arch enemy who's kissing up to the boss. We're still near bankruptcy cos he won't go in the owner's office and face him. The one time I talked to the owner and asked why he wasn't getting paid what they promised, H thanked me for doing it - we both know he's too chicken to fight for himself.

Anyway, I blew it and said 'you know that this is your one last chance to go talk to Owner and demand what he owes you. You know you need to tell him to pay you what you're worth, and that if he doesn't you're going to start looking for another job.' He just mumbled something and started going on again about the other guys. So I'd had it, and I said 'Did you hear what I said?'
He said yeah. So I said 'So are you going to do something about it?' (getting madder by the minute that he keeps coming to me with this crap and never ever does anything about it, just lets them all walk all over him, and I have to keep listening to it night after night after night)

So he got a little ticked and said "Yeah, I guess so!"

I know he won't do anything. I know I'm emasculating him by saying this. But I can't stand it anymore. He's running our family into the ground by being such a freaking milquetoast at work. He lets them make fun of him! Spread rumors about him being a drunk! To vendors! And does nothing.

Anyway, needless to say, we're not in the best of moods tonight.

*hugs*

It may not be the MB way, but I can't say that I blame you. It sounds like he needs *something* to get him to take action. One could only hope that what you said would do it. Probably not though.

*hugs*

Hugs from me too. BTDT for the most part, though my H usually ends up pissing off his coworkers, etc., so he loses his job (but it's never his fault....). And I have to hear the day in/day out whining about how he's not getting paid enough, he's way more qualified than anyone there, etc. Have done the bankruptcy thing because he lost yet another job, then refused to look for anything "under six figures because that's what I'm worth". Finally found his last job after almost 5 years without steady work and though not quite his fault, he's been out of work since April (company went out of business though I think he could have used the work network to help him, if he didn't feel so superior to everyone there). I just took a PT job on top of my FT job and it turns out they are willing to hire him on also. So I asked him about it yesterday. His reply: "maybe".

I also sympathize with you on how nothing ever gets done but complaining. BTDT, too.

Hugs again.

Cat, sending some hugs your way. Cat, this sounds like that Dance of Anger to me, where he whines and moas so you will release anger, stand up and take direction, so he won't have to. Only this time, you're different, have more awareness. You identify out that playing into that game of emasculating him instead of getting more resources to hlp you find the solution that works for you both, instead of this one that works for neither. They say the biggest step is to admit there's a problem. I'm excited to see where you two go from here. I think you both are different, this time, and may identify new choices you all havent tried before. Thanks for sharing!

So things have been going pretty well. I'm starting to feel a little safer. To be me. Major accomplishment for me, though.

We were at D18's best friend's 18th birthday party Saturday night. I was the only adult female there who wasn't one of the host's sisters. H hooked up with a guy who wanted to talk about electronics as soon as we got there, and continued talking to him for 3 hours. So I was feeling extremely left out. Finally about midnight I mentioned that I'd like to go home. He said ok; I waited. I came up to him, got the keys, he kept talking. I got in his field of vision a couple more times in the next 30 minutes, and he still never quit talking to the guy - talking about electronics is his one greatest way to get stroked, because the people are always amazed at how much he knows, and eager to hear any sage advice he can give them. I get that.

But I finally couldn't handle it any more, so I gave him back the keys and interrupted him and said I was walking home (about a mile away). He said ok, kept talking.

So I walk home in the 30 degree weather; finally get to my street, and he pulls up in the car; I wave him on. He keeps pulling up next to me (at least this time he wasn't honking the horn at 1am), finally rolled the window down and told me to get in. Instead of acquiescing like I usually do, I just 'no, I don't want to.' So he went home, waited for me out in the yard. No yelling, just wanting to know why I left and why I wouldn't get in the car.

So - you'll be proud of me - I said 'when you spend the whole night talking to someone about electronics and never even look at me, let alone including me in your activities, I feel invisible. I'm tired of feeling invisible.'

He seemed to be concerned about upsetting me, and never raised his voice or tried to defend himself. Maybe we're making progress?

Cat, thanks for the update! I'm glad to hear that your H responded to you by asking for your O&H, and that you were O&H after the fact. Kudos to both of you! And that is so cool that you ientified it as "invisible," instead of something blaming. (((Cat)))

Looking for the "lessons learned" here, do you see yourself getting to the point that you would ask for what you wanted at the time? I tihnk that would show a lot of respect for your H, that you believe in him, that he wants you to be happy. What do you think?

I think that he might remember this event, the next time it happens; so that's progress. He really does want me to be happy, I know that. Looking at the larger picture, I think he just operates out of fear and lack of self-worth. So my stepping up my side reinforces him, helps him be better.

So was this wrong? I asked H a couple weeks ago if it was alright with him if I had a financial counselor come by the house, he said sure, I made the arrangement for tonight at 7. Last night I reminded him of the appointment and asked him if it was still a good time for him, if he'd be able to make the 7pm meeting; he said sure. He seemed to be looking forward to it.

Today, thinking about how you've been telling me to step back and stop mothering him, I decided not to call him to remind him, like I have always done. He didn't show up. I had the meeting. H showed up about 15 minutes after the guy left, had totally forgot about it. A while ago, he saw the brochure the guy left, turns to me and says 'what time was he here?' I said 7. He was a little perturbed, not a lot. A while later, he goes 'why didn't you call me?' So I gathered up my courage and said 'that's not my job.' He looked at me incredulously. I said 'I reminded you of it last night.' Still nothing. So then I said - and this is where I wonder if I was a little overboard, DJ and all - I said "I remembered it."

He got that look on his face, went back to his computer. But a little later he made a joke about something, so I'm assuming I'm not in the doghouse. And I've shown him just a little that I'm not going to be his secretary any more.

Thoughts?