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 Originally Posted By: jayne241

Seabird: inside of the book not as nice as the cover? sweatsocks filled with sand? for shame!




I don't wish any ill on her but I do wonder if reality matches the expectations she had about being single again.

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Mrs. Hold has gone to 2 group workouts. She is sore but pleased with the emotional support. She wears her team t-shirt whenever she works out and she says everyone at the community center is very supportive when they see her. She likes it.

As for us, she says she feels I don't love her or even care about her. I told her I do care but whenever I express my feelings I either get ignored or mocked for being to weak / vulnerable - so I stopped expressing my feelings to her. I told her I am not the strong silent type, and not capable of becoming that way, even if that is the kind of man she wants to be with. She agreed she wants that kind of man. But she also wants the overt displays of affection.

I told her she can't have it both ways. She can't ask for sweetness as a means of reassuring herself I am still committed to her but then disrespect me for not being stoic. Perhaps I can learn to express my emotions in a manner that is less off-putting to her. But that will require communication on her part along with more positive reinforcement and less disrespect. If she is going to demand that I read her mind as to what she wants and then insult me when I make a mistake, well, that is a game I am not interested in playing.

The precipitating event behind her complaint was the drive to the airport last Saturday. It was snowing and my car couldn't get out of our driveway. We tied a rope to her truck and pulled my car up the hill. After we disengaged the rope, we discovered that my car's passenger window would not close. Obviously I couldn't drive to the airport and park my car there for a week with the window open, so I asked her to drive me to the airport. She as reluctant but complied. On the way there she started crying. She couldn't believe that I was "making" her drive me to the airport (we called some car services and none could get me there in time). I told her to drive slowly and carefully on the way back and we discussed which route was likely to have the best plowing, least hills and twists, etc. We called the kids and told them what to do if Mom didn't get back before bedtime. We toyed with the idea of her getting a hotel room and driving back the next day but it was supposed to snow all night and turn colder so we thought the next day might be even worse (as it happend it was, the next day there was a 13 car pileup on the road she would have taken). So there didn't seem to be any way for me to catch my flight unless she drove me and then drove herself home that night.

When I called home from here she complained that I failed to protect her. I told her I see any other way to catch my flight, and with a lousy economy and my job in tenuous circumstances I didn't want to mess up this trip. She said her father would never have let her mother drive. I asked her if she wanted me to treat her more like her father treats her mother. She quickly said no, she doesn't like the way he treats her in other ways.

So I think we are back where we started. She is not happy, but not willing to leave. Same as me. Although her doing this weight loss thing is a hopeful sign that maybe one of us is willing to make changes.

Oh, and a divorced guy we know (parent of one of S14's friends) is also in the weight loss challenge, but on a rival team. He asked Mrs. Hold if she wanted to be his workout buddy. She asked me what I thought of that. I told her I would be going to the local firearms store when I got back. She seemed to like that reaction. She said she thinks it was innocent on his part and that he just doesn't know anyone on his own team. I said I am not interested in some divorced guy working out with my wife 3 times a week. She agreed there was a risk. She said "I have never spent that much time with a guy in my life where he did not end up hitting on me. It has never not happened." I told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her. Or at least, I am not interested in her testing the hypothesis.

No, I am not really thinking of getting a gun on his account. Guess I will have to monitor the participants' blog.


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Cool! She still cares enough to want you to care whether she gets hit on; and you still care enough to not want her to get too close to a divorced guy. She also came out and told you about it, rather than hiding it and perhaps getting involved.

Except I just remembered that sometimes at the very beginning, won't WS's start telling their spouses about "that guy/girl at work" etc? Yes, monitoring is a good idea.

You paid her a huge compliment here:

 Quote:
told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her.


I am sooooo glad you are being H&O with her about why you don't show affection like she wants. Do you think she's starting to hear?

I wonder, is the atmosphere in your home a bit better nowadays? Your posts sound like it might be.


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 Originally Posted By: jayne241
She still cares enough to want you to care whether she gets hit on; and you still care enough to not want her to get too close to a divorced guy. She also came out and told you about it, rather than hiding it and perhaps getting involved.


Yes, it is nice that she told me. She wanted to get a rise out of me. I gave her what she wanted. See, I have learned something from MB.

 Originally Posted By: jayne241
You paid her a huge compliment here:

told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her.


I used to give her these types of compliments all the time. Means nothing positive to her. She knows men want her. She doesn't take that as a compliment. She takes it as an indictment of men.

 Originally Posted By: jayne241
I am sooooo glad you are being H&O with her about why you don't show affection like she wants. Do you think she's starting to hear?


No. Negotiating for me to provide more affection and affirmation and conversation and recreational companionship would require her to offer behavior in return that she remains unwilling / unable to offer. Until she is ready to go there, it makes no difference if she intellectually understands why I am not providing what she wants.

 Originally Posted By: jayne241
I wonder, is the atmosphere in your home a bit better nowadays? Your posts sound like it might be.


No. The atmosphere in my head is slightly better. But that is based on my withdrawal, not on us getting along better.


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 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
The important thing is that she has decided to take this step. I hope it proves beneficial to Mrs. Hold and a good model to D11.

As for how she treats me, well, I don't think it is surprising she wishes I would treat her as I treated her before and as I still treat others. Not realistic, but not surprising either.
True, but the wonderful thing is that, now that you have your boundaries, however you arrived at them, you are directly connecting your actions to HER actions. She is now seeing for the first time how HER choices are backfiring on her.

There is hope that it will be the impetus for her complete turnaround. Yes, it may be too late for you and you may never recover your love - but you might, and even if you don't, you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.

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 Originally Posted By: catperson
you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.


That is my hope. A happier more productive and fulfilled mother for my children.

I told her no one gets any sugar unless they pay the toll. I may not get any sugar, either, but I certainly am not going to tolerate anyone else getting any while I am paying the bills. I told her no one gets any on the side while I am paying the mortgage, car payment, hair colorist, etc. If she finds someone who is willing to pick all that up for her, we can talk. She laughed, so I don't think she was insulted. I think she liked that I was being so territorial.


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 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
 Originally Posted By: catperson
you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.


That is my hope. A happier more productive and fulfilled mother for my children.

I told her no one gets any sugar unless they pay the toll. I may not get any sugar, either, but I certainly am not going to tolerate anyone else getting any while I am paying the bills. I told her no one gets any on the side while I am paying the mortgage, car payment, hair colorist, etc. If she finds someone who is willing to pick all that up for her, we can talk. She laughed, so I don't think she was insulted. I think she liked that I was being so territorial.


Interesting (but not surprising) that she looked favorably at you defining your boundaries materially/ monetarily.

I guess this is the biggest No Duh! understatement of the year, but it sounds like you discovered her Love Language and communicated effectively with it. Don't know if it's worth it to you anymore to try and frame all of your communications with her like that, but might it might feel nice to think that you've at least figured out a way to talk to her.

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Mrs. Hold lost slightly over 2 pounds the first week. Hard to tell if she is happy or disappointed. Since she did not exercise before this, she has plenty of room for fitness improvement. She will probably be gaining muscle mass fairly quickly at first given the huge increase in exercise (she went every day last week, yesterday the team had a 2 hour workout, and she was back there today)). So even though she might not lose so much weight, she will lose size and reallocate from fat to muscle. Much healthier.

Good for her. I am proud of her. And she is right on pace to lose the total amount she hopes to lose over the 8 weeks. She isn't looking to win the contest. Just using the team spirit and accountability to facilitate a changed lifestyle. I hope it works for her.

Funny anecdote: the ladies on her team were discussing which brand of sports bra they use. Mrs. Hold announced what she was wearing, and apparently it was something that one of the women had never heard of. That woman walked up to Mrs. Hold, grabbed the front of her shirt, pulled it forward and took a look down her front. The woman then exclaimed "wow, you have big ones. I guess what you are wearing isn't relevant to me." I am still trying to figure out how she hadn't noticed my wife's chest before looking down her shirt. I am sure every heterosexual guy notices my wife's chest from about 3 blocks away!

Today is Mrs. Hold's birthday. I got her a cashmere scarf and a carry bag, both in her team's color. Tonight the kids and I will take her out to dinner. Not the big celebration (or gift) she wishes for. But more than appropriate for the circumstances.


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Did you get my reply from last week? Do you still have my direct email address?

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Yes, thank you. Was out of the country. Just got back. Will respond privately.


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Good going the "Jabba" is getting less weighty. Perhaps it will change her other bad attitudes. We can only hope it makes a slight change for the better in all your lives.

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Mrs. Hold was pleased with her birthday festivities. She was surprised I made the effort. She is the mother of my children. She deserves recognition on their account. D11 was happy to see I got Mrs. Hold flowers. That makes it worth the cost.


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Hey, and not bad, two pounds is a significant start with her program.

It will be interesting to see what happens if/when she loses
a lot more.

Even twenty pounds will make a heck of a difference.

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Weight loss, exercise, and improved eating habits are all welcome. So is a wife who is happier inside her own skin.

As for me, I got a nice ego boost the past few weeks flying back from Geneva. Both in December and January I was fortunate enough to sit next to an attractive middle aged female on the flight back. In December, she was a UK citizen visiting her daughter in NY who suddenly took ill. We chatted a little and at the end she thanked me for helping distract her from her daughter's condition. Last week, the woman sitting next to me had a bad cold. She kept apologizing for sneezing and coughing so we got to talking. At the end of the flight she said I was the most entertaining flight companion she had ever sat next to. No, I did not ask for names or contact information for either woman. But it was nice to be treated as an interesting person.

And no, I did not only talk to the women next to me. On the flight to Geneva in November, I sat next to a guy who works as an economist. We discussed his work over breakfast. I asked for his card, and e-mailed him after we got back to the US to ask for a copy of the report he was working on. So I was just as chatty to the males as the females. The only time I didn't chat to my "neighbor" was the flight where I sat next to a Swiss couple who couldn't be bothered to talk to an American too unsophisticated to speak French.

And as for being "territorial", on New Year's Eve we went to a party thrown by a girlfriend of Mrs. Hold. The friend is Swiss, and she wanted me to pick up a few minor items while I was there. I sent a message to her facebook page asking for the spelling of the name of what she wanted. And then when I got back, I sent her a message that the items were in CT, but she would need to talk to my wife about delivery. When I told Mrs. Hold, she got huffy and wanted to know why I was sending messages to her friend (who is married to a dentist who adores her and treats her well and earns alot more than I do so Mrs. Hold has nothing to worry about even if I had any interest in her friend - which I don't). Anyway, I guess possessiveness runs both ways.


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Interesting point, regarding chatting up both men and women. Why do we so often treat the other sex as "different", or somehow mystifying?

My paradigm has always been to speak to women no differently than I would another guy (we're talking relative strangers or those we don't know too well, of course.) No pageantry, or extravagant courting tactics, or profound protocols based on addressing the opposite sex. It takes the edge off, and makes conversation much
easier. Save the extravagance for the next steps, when there is a mutual interest.

When I was dating, I wouldn't make a formal affair of asking the woman out. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" Ack.

Instead, I would do as I would with anyone: "Let's grab a beer later on."

Keeping it light and interesting works well in generating interest.

Anyway, the woman on the plane was actually saying that she found you attractive and she would date you in favorable circumstances.
Good job, Hold! A couple of years ago you were fretting that nobody would date you if you were single. You've come a long, long way.

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 Quote:
Interesting point, regarding chatting up both men and women. Why do we so often treat the other sex as "different", or somehow mystifying?

My paradigm has always been to speak to women no differently than I would another guy (we're talking relative strangers or those we don't know too well, of course.)


Me too. But I find that here, especially, if you aren't careful ppl will misunderstand if you mention talking to a member of the opposite sex, even if it's just talking to them same as talking to anybody, not flirting. The fact that you mention it might be seen as a red flag, so I understand why Hold felt the need to clarify... Unless I'm projecting! (Sorry for speaking for you, Hold!)


me - 47 tired
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(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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 Originally Posted By: jayne241
The fact that you mention talking to the opposite sex might be seen as a red flag, so I understand why Hold felt the need to clarify...


Exactly. I didn't want it to seem like I was only chatting up the females. On one of the flights I was sitting next to an attractive younger woman who wore a tiny top with most of her chest hanging out. I didn't say a single word to her except once I asked to get out to the aisle.


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 Quote:
When I was dating, I wouldn't make a formal affair of asking the woman out. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" Ack.


I think the cringe-worthy part of statement is the "with me" bit. However I also have to admit that part of me misses the old-fashioned courtesies in being asked out. My husband when asking for our first date said "Would you like to go to dinner next Friday?"

I see both Hold and his wife changing dramatically. It is a case of one person changing, and this causing further changes to the relationship. Good work!

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Mrs. Hold just sent me an e-mail saying she recognizes how supportive I have been lately and she appreciates it. In the past I would have been all excited and hoping her reaction might lead to sex. Now I am indifferent. I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.


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 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold just sent me an e-mail saying she recognizes how supportive I have been lately and she appreciates it. In the past I would have been all excited and hoping her reaction might lead to sex. Now I am indifferent. I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.


That's the best thing I've ever seen you write. \:\)

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