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ML,

How is it too vague? It's seems pretty cut and dry to me. It's either ok to lie by omission or it's not. I can't imagine there are some instances that's it's OK and some that it's not.

A lie is a lie, right?

LC





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Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Yup - my FWW, Looking4, and a bunch of others that have posted here... wink

Any of then in a hot current affair that wasn't a ONS/mistake?

No I didn't think so.


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Originally Posted by ManInMotion
Yup - my FWW, Looking4, and a bunch of others that have posted here... wink

MIM, that is very cavalier of you to place the safety and security on the LOW ODDS that a liar will tell the truth to his victim. I guess its easy to fluff off when its not your life....

Do you want to know what I would say if some weasel told me he knew about my H's affair but did not tell me because he "didn't want to get in trouble in work?"

I would say "would you like me to call an ambulance for you?"


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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My WW left and 3 days later broke down and admitted the affair. Just saying.


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Originally Posted by lifeschoice
ML,

How is it too vague? It's seems pretty cut and dry to me. It's either ok to lie by omission or it's not. I can't imagine there are some instances that's it's OK and some that it's not.

A lie is a lie, right?

LC

No, I don't agree with that. It is too vague of a question. For example, the police often place taps on the phones of drug dealers and don't tell them. By definition, that is "lying by omission." But it is a righteous act that is required to protect society.

Do you think the police are being immoral when they "lie by omission" when in pursuit of drug dealers? Do you believe BS's are immoral when they put keyloggers on their spouses computers and bust them?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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LP,

Getting back to you and your dilemma. Good luck, you are in a very tricky place. You are fortunate to have a legal dept to guide you.

LC





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LP77,
This got me a little excited to warn you to step cautiously. Not sure if this has been suggested already in the 60some postings but try to be sure you follow all written company policies as well as the laws.

Not that I think you should be giving these two cohorts any breathing room. Let them know in no uncertain terms that you are on to them and will not tolerate such a relationship if company policies back you up and regardless you feel its ethically wrong and violates your moral compass so one of them had better figure it out NOW! New position for one of them asap IMHO. Once the chemicals start flowing there is little anyone can do to stop the attraction. Its a physical thing. IMHO.


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Thanks for your answer.

LC





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ML, I think we both agree that the OM should be told.

All we are disagreeing here about really is the process.

Frankly, I think it's reckless and foolish to ignore the legal advice given when there are other methods and avenues open to inform the BH. That's the type of advice I'd expect to see from persons who are taking no risks in giving it, and therefore should be given the due attention it actually deserves. wink Morality and tactfullness are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, the poster has indicated that the BH may suspect or know already - this may even be confirmed in the WW's e-mail, for all we know.




Last edited by ManInMotion; 01/15/09 09:17 PM.

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Originally Posted by lifeschoice
Thanks for your answer.

LC

If LP sends a letter anonymously, and WW confronts her about it - it won't be a case of "lying by omission" if LP denies doing so. It will be lying, period.



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MIM, I believe there is a way to satisfy both her work obligation and her moral obligation to this man. I doubt it will be that difficult to figure out a way.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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i have reviewed the email and either they were very careful or deleted anything funny.
There was a lot of come 2 my office now, are you free 2 see me, etc and the only stand out was her to him which said time for our exercise get in here now. I took that as not going for a lunchtime walk but it could be argued otherwise.
I have looked further into the phone records and they were talking at all hours of the day and i dont believe a call at 1am is work related.
I have been advised not to tell her husband and i have to respect the wishes of our legal dept. I also need to remain very professional during this. As much as i want to tell him it could be professional suicide.
Her husband is very close mates with another senior manager in the company and i had a meeting with him today and he said there are problems and her husband knows something is up and he wont cover for her if he asks why she was dismissed. So that fixes my ethical and moral dilemma for me.
I had hoped the email would give me hard evidence but it looks like she may have been careful in that respect knowing the company policy relating to email.
I have scheduled a meeting with the CEO for monday and i will give xou all am update then.
I know this thread has caused some heated debate and i appreciate all of the different opinions on the topic cause it has enabled me to look at it from many different perspectives and make the best possible decision to get this sorted. I am not at the end yet and i have a fair way to go too so i hope xou all quick with me while i reach an outcome.

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LP,

I seems to me you are handling this very well and very professionally, you should be proud. I suspected that as you got into this that your professionalism would detach you a bit from this and allow you to see the situation.

I would also like to suggest that you remember that "what goes around comes around." and in this situation my guess is that she will not get away with this or she will mess up later. Be patient, be thorough, and take your time.

God Bless,

JL

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Originally Posted by littlepeanut77
I have been advised not to tell her husband and i have to respect the wishes of our legal dept. I also need to remain very professional during this. As much as i want to tell him it could be professional suicide.

Good call IMO.


Originally Posted by littlepeanut77
Her husband is very close mates with another senior manager in the company and i had a meeting with him today and he said there are problems and her husband knows something is up and he wont cover for her if he asks why she was dismissed. So that fixes my ethical and moral dilemma for me.

Excellent - so a solution has presented itself.


Originally Posted by littlepeanut77
i have reviewed the email and either they were very careful or deleted anything funny.
There was a lot of come 2 my office now, are you free 2 see me, etc and the only stand out was her to him which said time for our exercise get in here now. I took that as not going for a lunchtime walk but it could be argued otherwise.

Is your office using Outlook and Exchange for e-mail purposes?

You could have someone check to see if she created a Personal Folder in her profile on her PC. If she did that, she could be saving all the incriminating stuff there, rather than leaving it in her Exchange mailbox.

My bet though is that if she's smart enough to avoid leaving incriminating e-mail in the corporate e-mail system, she's also smart enough to use Hotmail, Gmail or another online e-mail service for the purpose of sending such e-mail. That's going to be more difficult to catch, unless someone looks at the firewall logs, identifies when she actually uses those services, and you organize to catch her in the act when she does it again.


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Originally Posted by littlepeanut77
Her husband is very close mates with another senior manager in the company and i had a meeting with him today and he said there are problems and her husband knows something is up and he wont cover for her if he asks why she was dismissed. So that fixes my ethical and moral dilemma for me.

This is great news, peanut! I knew there had to be a way that satisfied BOTH! smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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lil peanut.

2 issues.

1 I would be very careful discussing the situation on this forum. you are putting your company in an ethically grey position by discussing it out of school like this. I don't want to see you end up in a legally actionable position because of that.

2. I would also be very careful in dealing with the 20 yr old. Yes he was a participant but you can have no idea whether that was entirely voluntary given the disparate ages and positions of power. He could easily claim that he was pressured into a relationship and that your response further victimizes him. if it were me i would do exactly that and pursue legal action against the company and you personally for failing to protect him from a predatory manager.

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Have the information tech people at your company done a thorough search of all files and memory?

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Originally Posted by mockeryjones
lil peanut.

2 issues.

1 I would be very careful discussing the situation on this forum. you are putting your company in an ethically grey position by discussing it out of school like this. I don't want to see you end up in a legally actionable position because of that.

2. I would also be very careful in dealing with the 20 yr old. Yes he was a participant but you can have no idea whether that was entirely voluntary given the disparate ages and positions of power. He could easily claim that he was pressured into a relationship and that your response further victimizes him. if it were me i would do exactly that and pursue legal action against the company and you personally for failing to protect him from a predatory manager.

I find it interesting that you signed up to make this one post. How are you involved in the case?

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i have no personal stake in anyone or anything on this site.

i read it for the train wreck value.

i posted on this thread because it is the only one in which no one, not even the OP has any significant personal investment in the outcome so i do not feel that I am butting into anyone's personal hell.





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mockeryjones there are only a handful of people in the company that are aware of the sitch at this stage and i intend to keep it as discreet as possible. Their is nothing stopping me seeking advice on this topic in fact i have also sought advice from a hr group which i am a member of. I have not used the company name nor have i used my own. My role is full of grey areas everyday because i am dealing with people and we are an unpredictable bunch. In order to perform the role to the best of my abilities at times i must seek advice outside the resources i have at work. I will continue to work this way and it has not been an issue ever before and some of the previous cases were very sensitive industrial relations matters. In my job everything is sensitive it is just how you conduct yourself and reach a resolution that is paramount.
As for not protecting my staff from a predatory manager this is crazy. I was not aware there was am issue and the moment it came to light i have jumped on it. If he attempts to argue his case in this manner them so be it i am prepared to refute that with he this is true why was it not reported by him. He signed a very specific harassment policy at induction which outlines the steps taken in these matters and the staff are also very aware that i take a very hardline when it comes to harassment and there is zero tolerance. He has made no attempt to report it in fact the evidence shows he has covered it up by getting a new phone number one which the company did not have a record of. This is something else i have discovered which shows his deceiv. Like every other matter i deal with i plan to game them the number for equal opportunities so if they feel they are being discriminated against they can seek free advice. Again i have fought much more complex industrial relations matters than this one and won so i am not at all worried by the points you have raised.

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