WOW..to what rprynne is saying..

This is SOOOO true for ME...my H has definitely stated that he THOUGHT that I didn't NEED him and she DID..it was READILY APPARENT to him that she NEEDED him...

This bugs me..because IRL people that know me, not just my H, perceive me as NOT being NEEDFUL..they see me as having it "ALL TOGETHER"..of course, I'm NORMAL. of course, I NEED HELP...I haven't been able to completely resolve this issue YET...

With my H, I've learned to be LOUD AND CLEAR about what I NEED and willing to ASK HIM for HELP..LOUD AND CLEAR.."I NEED for you to...."I'M TIRED".."I'M HUNGRY"..."I'M COLD"...etc..

I guess it's HARD for me to ASK, thinking it's OBVIOUS..undoubtedly it's NOT...

It's about learning to be OPEN, HONEST and TRANSPARENT...I guess...

Mimi,
Thank you. I had a psych appt today and WH has also privately met with him two times now. I am happy to report that this has all made me feel a lot more giving towards WH and I feel that maybe I can put some of your advice into action. I was NOT feeling that way yesterday and trying just to barely hang on. I know that WH sees OW a lot on the weekends (her ex has her daughter) - so I have not called or written because it just makes me sad but am hoping by early next week to have a better plan of action using some of this and giving a lot of thought to what my psych has discussed with me.
I will come back to some of the posts point by point tomorrow. And Mimi I would love to continue to pick your brain. Your posts to me are a great help and I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that.
Have to put the kids in bed.
Q

qwertyuiop - you were asking about verbal abuse before. It sounds like he's been verbally abusive to you.

I don't know if you've read Patricia Evans' 'The Verbally Abusive Man.'

She defines verbal abuse as the act of defining another person - telling the person what they are.

In your posts, repeatedly, you sit in judgement on your H. You define him.

"I'm too strong for him" (implicitly - he's weak.)
"He's childish - not responsible for his actions"
"I laugh at him" (He is a joke)
"I find them (him included) ridiculous" (He is ridiculous)
"I have told him it (the affair) will never last" Implicitly - it's my place to do this because he could never work it out for himself - he is stupid.

Also - you speak of him *feeling* emasculated, and, by my reading, don't really seem to consider that he might be *being* emasculated. That any steps you might take are simply to appease his feelings, and not to deal with a problem in your attitude to him. Am I reading too much into your post - or is this how you feel?

If this is your usual attitude to your H - disrespect, lecturing, scorn - there may be the origin of his affair. Which came first - his abuse, or yours?

In any event, if you want him back, this attitude will have to go.

BTW - I am amazed that you manage to raise three little kids, manage those properties, and find time for yourself.

Something had to give, and it did. It'd be so much easier with a keen willing partner by your side. Good luck with saving your M.

BINGO!

Traded down by what standards?

Economic? Some people couldn't care less. My WW's OM was a janitor and we have a million dollar plus home.

A confident wife? Well, what can that mean in terms of ENs? Does he get admiration from you? Conversation? Recreational companionship? Good sex?

Or is it more about disrespectful judgements on your part, sarcasm at maybe his lower sophistication in conversation, etc.

Don't be hurt by the above -- it is what I came to realize about myself in counseling.

If someone is fleeing a domineering relationship, a quiet little second wifey seems pretty good. If they are fleeing a boring relationship or one marked by poverty, other traits will be more important.

Thank you 5/6 - this is a very insightful and somewhat painful post.

Yes, he has been verbally abusive to me. I have accused him of this and he has told me that I too am verbally abusive to him. It is hard to say which came first but they are very different manifestations of abuse and I know very little about the subject, haven't studied it and didn't even realize it was happening until less than a year ago - possibly at the time of the first affair (I have a fuzzy memory of what was happening prior to the first affair - but I think I accused him of verbal abuse after the first affair began and I was unaware he was having an affair - and I feel that at that time he was 'demonizing' me - trying to convince himself that I was the devil. The more he abused me, and I abused back the more justification for his affair.

WH comes from a family with a violent father. I think things began with our kids - now 7, 5 and 2 - when he began to yell at them, the way he knew from growing up. I wouldn't accept it, and would tell him in front of the kids. This spiraled out of control - with him madder and madder at me for correcting him (especially in front of the kids). I absolutely wouldn't allow the kids to be abused and wanted it crystal clear in their head that I was on their side (I know I'm gonna get comments on that one). So he started in on me and left the kids alone. But a lot of it was yelling at me stuff about the kids, in front of the kids such as -THESE kids should do X, these kids don't eat enough of that, these kids need more friends... in a nasty, nasty voice and out of no where.

Yes, I do judge him. But how do I separate the issues of abuse and judgement?

If the disrespect, lecturing and scorn on my part go away, will the verbal abuse on his part go away? Or is this something he is going to keep doing because his dad did it and it is what he knows?

as to this: Also - you speak of him *feeling* emasculated, and, by my reading, don't really seem to consider that he might be *being* emasculated. That any steps you might take are simply to appease his feelings, and not to deal with a problem in your attitude to him. Am I reading too much into your post - or is this how you feel?

Excellent point and well taken. I am definitely working on changing me - my attitude towards him. not just appeasement. But I can see it slipping into that if I am not careful. As I've stated earlier - serious soul searching is in order.

The key is to PARENT together as a TEAM...

This was MY ISSUE, too...disrespecting my H as a FATHER...YUCK..

Even though I disagreed with HIS WAY..the way I did it was WRONG...

I had to learn that I can't change who my husband is based on his past..only HE can CHOOSE to do so..I can express to him how I feel about his way..speak my truth..but it's HIS CHOICE about what his does with his past..whether he wants to work on his past or not..

good point. And yes it does hurt - but it also makes a lot of sense.
He would describe the relationship as domineering definitely- I am in control. I have never felt it was that way but he certainly does and I am trying my best NOW to understand.

It's MORE LIKELY because HE will begin to LISTEN to your point of view..

quote mimi
The key is to PARENT together as a TEAM...

This was MY ISSUE, too...disrespecting my H as a FATHER...YUCK..

Even though I disagreed with HIS WAY..the way I did it was WRONG...

I had to learn that I can't change who my husband is based on his past..only HE can CHOOSE to do so..I can express to him how I feel about his way..speak my truth..but it's HIS CHOICE about what his does with his past..whether he wants to work on his past or not..
_________________________


OK Mimi,
Agreed.
But how can this happen when one parents way of parenting is abusive?
really would like some good solid advice here.
Would it have been possible for me to just ask him nicely to stop...? I'm sure I tried that in the beginning.

Although YOU know and believe that his parents were abusive, DOES HE?

Mimi,
I am not sure he would use the word 'abuse' to describe his father's behavior.
I have, as you may have already guessed, educated him on this subject. My words have been along the lines of, 'your father was abusive to you and continues to abuse your mother. You know this now and you have the power to make the cycle stop because you are aware of it.'

But I sense that he downplays it. He will admit that his father was, 'violent' but not use the word abuse to describe it. WH and I have come to an agreement to describe the way he talks to me not as abuse or yelling but as talking 'with hate in his voice'. He will accept that much.

Q

Perfect time to 'educate' him that you will no longer accept being talked to with hate in his voice. Simply turn around and leave the room every time he does it. If he asks what you're doing, you calmly reply 'I'm leaving until you can talk to me with respect. I'll be back later, and we can try again.' Then leave.

I disagree that PLAN A is the time to "educate" him. Cat, he won't LEARN anything in the midst of FOG. He will only use this as further rationalization for perceiving her as EMASCULATING HIM.

I always recall giving my H the book SAA and he had even counseled with Steve Harley and my H said "that book does NOT APPLY to ME"..

Steve told me that you can't EDUCATE someone who is not open to being a STUDENT...especially a WH who perceives his wife as being DISRESPECTFUL..

Mimi, you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant was that the next time he yells, you simply say "I'll come back later when we can discuss this without arguing." And you leave the room.

GOTCHA, Cat!!

I don't know your whole story but the KEY is to place FOCUS on the MARITAL RELATIONSHIP in the family. I've learned that the focus should have been the RELATIONSHIP between my H and I. I began to focus on my relationship with the children, neglecting my H, leaving him out of my life, out of our lives.

So, if the marriage is CLOSE and LOVING, there is INTIMACY. There is INTIMACY that would have given me opportunity to talk to him about MY CONCERNS about his PARENTING and then he would have LISTENED. I, like you, would have asked him about his perception of his actions, asked him if HE thought it had to do with his OWN PARENTING when he was growing up. This would have been accomplished in our intimate moments, in the special time each week we would have been spending together, focusing on each other.

I had NEGLECTED being a WIFE, in the midst of focusing on being A PARENT. I FAILED at being his companion and confidante. This is how the relationship WAS before we had children and this INTIMACY should have been maintained. Plus, crazy as this may sound, I failed to VALUE, ACCEPT and RESPECT that the children are also his and he has just as much right to his own point of view about parenting as I do. This is where the POLICY OF JOINT AGREEMENT is put into action. My H calls it "coming to the table"...

What was your relationship like with your husband before you had children? What made you fall in love with each other? What attracted you to each other? This OFTEN gets LOST once we become PARENTS and it is necessary to be MAINTAINED in order for the LOVE to STAY ALIVE.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Actually - since the time I asked the question I spoke with WH, told him I was looking forward to his visit and that I also was apprehensive about us fighting. I told him that I had read in a book my psych recommended that you can take an "I" based time-out. Which is to say something along the lines of, "I need to leave the room because if I don't [b]I[/b] am going to say something that I will regret. I will be back to check-in (phone call or physically) in 20 minutes." Also recommends not to continue with that subject matter until 24 hours later and that if, after 20 minutes you are not able to resume speaking calmly, to go away again, but for longer and longer intervals until you are ready to face your partner again. There is also a 'you' based similar concept but I don't think I would be able to use that with WH right now. I spoke briefly with WH and asked if he would be willing to set down a few rules and he was very enthusiastic with his yes. So I am going to follow a bit of the structure in the book I'm reading which, in any case, is very similar to what you are saying, catperson.

I think I will also practice the technique of 1. speaking to him with respect and 2. saying, 'I am speaking to you with respect. Please give me the same in return.'

Remember, though, that your H is a Wayward..all things AWFUL.. usually... regardless of what YOU say or do...the WAYWARD does not want the marriage to work...a lot of what he may to say to you NOW is BS...Sorry...

Mimi, I LOVE this. So well put. Thank you.


Yes - that's about my situation. I, however, am not there yet regarding accepting, valuing and respecting his opinion. I hope I can get there - but certainly do not feel that yet. WH is a workaholic. When he comes home and yells at the kids or at me for how I am raising them I just don't feel that there is any 'opinion' about how to raise the kids in there. Just gut reaction (that's what dads are supposed to do). BUT - I understand now that had we had the intimacy our concerns could have been aired in the way you so gracefully put it in the quote above and he would have listened. Can we repair the damage that has already been done?


Well, I wonder - we were together such a short time before we had kids. I got pregnant after only about 8 months of dating WH. It was 8 months of new love and romance. I have often wondered if it was not enough- that I never got to know the real H. Because I do not really know the answer other than he felt like home to me.