I hesitate to post because my situation isn't as bad as many here who need a lot more attention than I do. That being said, here goes:

My husband (11 years) and I have been perfect for each other. He is great at doing loving relationship, I am great at being a strong individual with good self esteem, and we have been great teachers for each other. Without him, I would still be very much a loner who gives to people with high needs but shares little of myself. There was no 2-way street of relating for me until I met him. Funny that I'm here seeking advice; I think it shows that I have grown.

On the other hand . . . His self esteem issues lead him to be a moderate attention seeker from colleagues and women. He doesn't have enough on the inside to not need lots of praise from outside. I give him plenty of that myself but I am just one person and he seeks more than one person can give. One person cannot provide enough support to someone who fails to look inside about 20% of the time.

Most of his attention seeking has been harmless flirting, much of it right in front of me. He is not good at it; he is not charming; and most women are not attracted to it. Unfortunately, I think he crossed the line about three years ago with the first event in a 4-part story I am still wondering about and don't know what to do with. I do feel pretty sick with not knowing.

About 3 years ago, he showed suspicious signs of being in an affair with a woman at his work. I also had that gut feeling going on (which I think is a form of ESP). When I brought it up, he denied it (of course) and went so far as to say the people at work thought she was having an affair with another man there. The behavior stopped and he left that company so I let it drop. Every now and then, I wondered if there really had been something between them.

A few months ago there was new suspicious behavior and I had another gut feeling. One of the things he was doing was getting up at 4:00 a.m. to get on the computer. I finally snuck up on him and he instantly shut down the window that was open. I made a comment and he turned it into a joke: “Oh yeah. You’ve caught me now.” He didn’t open the window back to show me what was hidden and I didn’t ask (I simply couldn’t deal with it at the time). He of course assumed I took the joke as fact and believed he was innocent. He might have been; I can’t guarantee that he truly did shut that window in a hurry to prevent me from seeing anything or if the timing was coincidence.

Last Saturday he was gone from the house and I heard a beep on the computer. The beep was an email alert and I don’t get email on that computer so I knew his email must be open. That is when I finally decided to start searching for some answers. There was an 6-month old email in his sent box to our former renter that said: “I got your email but I couldn’t reply from work. Send me an email to my work email (he gives the address) so I can reply from there without your email bouncing me. By the way, don't you realize it's a bad idea to send an email to a guy with the word Blonde and Blow in the same sentence???? Hehe I hope all is well. I'm doing great but I miss my favorite blonde.”

If this email was just one event without the previous suspicious activity, I would have just rolled my eyes at him being crude again. He and the renter were friendly/flirty in a way that I didn’t mind and in fact she met and very happily married a guy during her time in our rent house. He does step over the line every now and then with the stupid things that come out of his mouth towards women and when I hear it, I tell the woman that I’ll slap him for her as soon as we get home (I don’t really go around slapping anybody just so you know. I am not into violence.). He is like a big puppy that doesn’t know any better than to chew on the furniture and pee on the carpet.

Last night I checked his history on the computer. He never bothers to delete anything so if he is up to something he doesn’t work hard to hide it. There was a hit three weeks ago on Yahoo Personals. The info he filled out was: Caucasian female, 25-40, slender/fit/active, non-smoker, within 5 miles of our city. He had reports being sent to his email 3x per week. I went ballistic. I am an excellent wife, have a great job, have been fit my entire life, and still get hit on even though I am almost 49 years old. I am the best friend he ever had, and he fills out a personals add part way. I noted he did not put in any information about himself. It looked like he was just playing around to see what pictures of women would come up.

His story about the first woman he worked with: He does not know why he did some of the particular behaviors he did and he does not know why he said what he said about her back then. Besides, she smokes like a chimney and if he was going to screw around he certainly would not get anywhere near someone who smokes.

His story about shutting down the computer window and making the “Oh you caught me” remark. He shouldn’t have made a joke like that. He didn’t actually try to explain what was on the computer that time. I was so tired and we’d already been talking a long time so I forgot to push this one.

His story about Yahoo three weeks ago: He doesn’t remember going there and all of his sons had been to visit for Christmas. One of them could have gone there. As for filling out the information and his email, his first story was that he must have done that 15 years ago before he met me. His second story was that he just played around to see what would come up. This second story matches his personality and the lack of him putting in any of his own info supports the “just playing around” part.

All of this sounds worse in writing than it sounds when he speaks. He sounds totally honest when he speaks, yet he told me two different stories about the Yahoo thing. The change in story sounded like he was trying to remember and came up with two different ideas, the second based on remembering something. A profile registration makes it look like he could have put the search criteria in 7 years ago and his boys were in our house about 3 weeks ago, so the whole thing is plausible. It is typical of him to come up with different stories on past events, even 5 minute ago events that I had just seen/heard. When he changes history, he gets adamant that his now story is correct. I’d have to carry a voice recorder around to prove to him that he is wrong about the 5 minutes ago events. My brother is this way too, so I know it happens with some people. The memories they believe in are often based on how they wants things to have been rather than how things were.


He truly loves me and yet he truly has a need for outside attention. He apologized. He said he was wrong to do anything that hurt me. He lives in fear that I will leave him so he would never intentionally do anything to give me cause. He said he was wrong to play with the Yahoo thing but swears he did not go there 3 weeks ago despite the evidence that shows somebody went there. It could have been his sons. He pointed out that nothing is hidden. He showed me that his email is always open (I didn’t know that) and that he knows how to clear the history on the Internet. He said if he wanted to hide something, he would have done so. He pulled out all the cell phone records for me to look at and asked me to check his email several times a day. He wants to prove his somewhat innocence to me. He knows he did another over-the-top statement to our renter. That over-the-top thing is typical of him about 2 or 3 times a year because sometimes he is just doesn’t know where to stop.

He and his first wife are good friends and remain family. They have children together thus they will always remain family. We go to her house and her sister’s house for dinner parties and holiday events. I sometimes am there early enough to help in the kitchen. The story I get from her, her sister, and him is that they brought the worst out in each other so she divorced him. None of them have ever said anything about him screwing around.

I told him that if he tells me the truth we can work this out, but if I find out that he is telling me lies I will probably move out of the house. If he has told me the whole truth and I keep telling him to stop telling me lies, that makes things worse. If he has lied and I don’t keep pushing, that makes things worse. We are damned if I do and damned if I don’t.

I don’t really know what to do next other than work on the marriage in the style shown here. I know I can improve and he is willing to improve as well. He has always treated me very well so this Yahoo thing was driven by his self esteem issues. The renter email has moved to a non-issue for me but I still wonder about that woman he used to work with. I know it’s true that she is a smoker and I know that disgusts him, so there is that.

I welcome any and all advice and I hope to be able to help some other people around here. This place is heartbreaking. I already edited this wordy post down a bunch so please ask for clarification on anything that doesn’t make sense.

What kind of boundaries do you have in place? It sounds like you don't have a real problem with him flirting or trying to flirt with other women. Does he know this bothers you? Or does it bother you? I could be totally off base but I almost get the feeling you don't think he's capable of having an A not because he doesn't want to but because he can't 'get' another woman. Why else would you allow flirting with another woman living in the same house with you?

I'm sorry, but your email is stomach churning.

There's no such thing as harmless flirting when you're married and the fact that he says such things to other women in front of you shows a gross lack of respect towards you.

You should not tolerate it or dismiss it as harmless.

"Harmless" flirting leads to other things.

The odds are very high that he has indeed cheated. If he wasn't doing anything secret he wouldn't have shut down his computer.

You should install a keylogger on your computer. Let him use it like normal. That will give you his passwords that you need to get into his accounts and find the truth.

You're in a bit of denial if you think that all that is happening is harmless flirting.

Who is the blonde? Him?

You need to understand that there is NO SUCH THING AS HARMLESS FLIRTING!

He has boundary issues. And people who have bad boundary issues cross them.

You need to start spying much deeper. Take a look at the history in the browser. Also look at your phone and cell phone records.

I'm sure you'll be surprised by what you find.

Hi GoingUphill,

Welcome to MB. At times, I've felt my story is not as bad as others around here because my WH ONLY had an EA...well, 2, actually.

Innocent flirting with loose boundaries and abrupt window closing on the computer, all bundled with secrecy is how my WH started down this road of devastation.

If you want to know where it lead us (and what we needed to be able to do a full 180 and start recovery), read my sad saga, linked to my sig line.

You're in the right place, GUH, so there's no need to apologize for recognizing these and seeking help.

Wishing you the best,

Ace

Hi GoingUpHill, I am sorry you find yourself here BUT I think you need to be here.

I am not one of the Vets who I hope will post here. From what I have read, I feel your H is trying to have an A and maybe has had one in the past.

Cell phone messages can be deleted. Have you registered his cell phone on line. This will give you the true activity. Just go on line to whatever phone service he has. You will need his phone for about 5 minutes so when they send you the initial password as a text message to his phone to complete registration.

History on the computer can be deleted along with e-mail history. Keylogger will give you a true account of his activity. Did you think of the possibility of him having multiple e-mail addresses?

Read back what you have written. Do you really think his sons opened up a Yahoo personal from 7 years ago..and if so you indicate you have been married 11 years.

It is not ESP -- it is a gut feeling that something is wrong.

Luckily, your H indicates he loves you and is not at the stage where he is in an active A and wants to separate. This gives you good opportunity to work on your M. Time to set up MC before things get worse. good luck -- you will get excellent support here.

He doesn't flirt by my definition of flirting, which involves sexual chemistry. He draws attention to himself by saying things out of the blue to servers and cashiers to say, "Hey look at me. Please think that I am an acceptable human being instead of the stupid idiot my mother thinks I am. Please tell me that the rest of the women in the world find me to be a worthy man." He also braggs on me to them, to everybody he works with, to everybody he in his hobby club (plastic modeling; all men). He tries to be funny and make jokes out of everything, so the comment about "blow and blonde" was one of those that went too far and got crude and gross. I get on his case when he does it, but this time it fell in line with a total picture of events that made me wonder what was going on.

He could indeed get other women if he wanted to; he is capable of attracting plenty of women. What I meant by his attention grabbing stuff is that it is not that thing where a man thinks he is a gift to women and that they should all want him so he is offereing his services. It is not that thing that does attract some women who go for that kind of man. It is intended to make him believe that he himself is likeable. He is very likeable; he just has a false belief that he is not. I've seen his mother call him stupid dunce so I assume she talked that way to him when he was a child.

I'm not sure I'm explaining this well so keep asking as needed.

She didn't live with us. She lived in our rent house. We live in our own house.

The big question to me you ask is "What kind of boundaries to you have in place?" I will have to think about that. I don't have an answer right now. It never really came up before. I think that is probably the question I've been asking myself since last night but didn't phrase it that way. Thanks.

Everyone has given me lots to think about and some of the statements are taking way my appetite again. I don't have time to reply to each post yet but I'll get to them as soon as I can. I want to thank everyone for already pushing me to move this thing along. I have an urge to not come back here so that I can shove it all under the rug. I guess that's normal. I'll force myself to keep coming back.

Edit: I also see that I have some spy work to do. Not fun is it?

Glad you're here and have the potential to keep things from getting worse. Many of us would give anything to have had that chance.

We'll be here for you GUH. Read all you can on this web site in addition to these forums as the articles will enlighten you further.

Ace

GUH, that is a natural reaction to run and hide.
As I said you have an advantage that your H is in love with you still and not in an active A.
Think of it as a blessing that you did not ignore it and had the guts to come here and look for answers.
It is not fun and it hurts -- bad. But you have taken the first step and recognizing there is a problem. take care

I tend to assume people do the right things the way I do until proven otherwise, so my rosy colored glasses never lead me to consider that he has boundary issues. This is all new to me.


Too bad I don't need to go on a fast. I could just re-read that over and over for perfect appetite control.

Thanks for the great advice. Now I have some work to do.

Thanks for the welcome. You really got my attention since your situation was similar. I'll read your story as soon as I get done replying to all of these comments.

The way the computer is set up, just going to yahoo personals goes to his account with the woman-search-parameters in it, so anybody clicking on yahoo personals would have gotten his account. I do not necessarily believe that any of his sons went to Yahoo personals three weeks ago and I know I didn't. I also have a problem with him putting in the search parameters if it was 7 years ago even though I'm pretty confident he was safety-net-hunting as I described above; it still suck and it was still wrong to do. Somehow it's worse to me if he put those parameter in 3 weeks ago.

Anybody remember the Walker Railey (sp?) Story? Attempted murder turned his wife into a vegetable. Every single thing he did painted two stories: Either he did try to murder her or he did many actions to cover up an affair. It was impossible to tell from the evidence so the jury had to say Not Guilty on the attempted murder charge.

My evidence against my husband coupled with his personality and explanations can't convict him of more than the worst thing I can prove he did: He put in search parameters for women on Yahoo in a desperate attempt to give him some relief from his phobia. This is a baseline I've just come up with after "talking" with all of you today. I've been feeling like I'm floundering without having a good baseline to work from, so you guys are really helping me move forward very quickly.


Great advice!

I do wonder how all of you have it in you to work on your marriages after you've been treated the way you've been treated. You are all very fine examples of great human beings.

Your posts are full of rationalizations. Stop rationalizing and as Dr. Phil says, start being real.

Yes, history on a computer can be erased. So can text messages, etc.

But a WS is often careless at first if they don't think you're spying, and deleting a history on a computer web browser is not a common habit for people.

Surfing for single sites when you're married is wrong.

So.....

Look at the surf history.

Take a guess at his passwords if you don't have a keylogger.

This is the keylogger I used on my exww:
http://www.actualkeylogger.com/

It's free. You have to setup your antivirus to ignore the program. You need to disable your anti-virus to install it. Once you have it installed go into the options menu and tell it to ignore keylogger.

Either that or simply have the anti-virus not launch on computer bootup.

So look at surf history. Check your cell phone records online.

Get him to use the computer and give up his passwords with the keylogger. Once you have that, get into his emails or websites or whatever it is that he does.

Then, once you have the evidence, come back here for advice on how to confront, because we can predict to you what he's going to say.

And by no means should you ever, ever, ever reveal how you got the information. You'll push him further underground if he's indeed having an affair.

And finally:

I would have never, ever, in a million years, disrespected my wife by making comments about other women in front of her and even less with flirting with a woman, but especially so in her presence. I can't even imagine that.

So he has boundary issues as it is.

And no respect for you.

But then again, you have dismissed this as harmless this whole time. It's not.

EVER.

Hey GoingUphill,

How's it going? (no pun intended)

Hope you've been reading and learning. When I first got here, I posted a new thread and then quit posting to read and seek more info. A week later, someone asked for an update and it made me feel like someone cared.

Many do care. Looking for your update soon.

Ace

P.S. You may not feel like you're not as bad off as some, but brace yourself for what you may discover. There was a thread a couple months ago that revealed an ahah moment for me. I discovered that what my FWH and I had overcome was actually much worse than we/I first thought. Here's the link: EA or PA, What's the Difference?

I don't see that I'm rationalizing. I'm saying he did wrong and the reason that motivated his wrong doing is a self esteem thing. The reason is not: A) He fell in love with someone else; B) He doesn't love me. C) He isn't attracted to me. D) He has to have all kinds of different women to satisfy some high male sex drive. Motivations/Reasons don't justify wrong doing, but they can help when it comes to solutions.


Absolutely.

We spend almost all of our free time together so with the 3-day weekend he managed to bring it up in conversation 9 times over the last 3 days to talk about how wrong he was to do that, to hurt me, etc. He keeps bringing it up to say he will never do that again. He asked me to go to the search criteria he put in and delete it for him.



He knows I can simply click on his personal email at home as he keeps it open. He doesn't know I have his password and can get in from my work. I checked it at least once an hour all day Friday and I've already checked it twice today.

I contacted a woman friend of mine at his work. She is well beyond retirement age (73) and very trustworthy so I asked her to be on my team. She is an admin (works for fun; doesn't really need the money) so she has his password and gave it to me mid-day Friday. She doesn't care that she could get fired for that because then she'd go be a greeter at WalMart or something. Besides, getting fired would be a new life experience for her that would amuse her (No kidding. That is what she said.) Anyway, I haven't found anything in his work email yet either. She says he braggs on me several times a week. She says some of the other women have remarked that they hoped their husbands talk about them in the same manner. She has seen nothing suspicious and she says that she is up on all the office talk that does include some juicy stories.


Thanks for the info.

I'm not up on computer stuff. If I tried a keylogger out on my work computer first to learn how it works, can my company find out somehow (we are networked)? On the home computer, what keeps him from finding out?


The surf history is how I found the Yahoo search. The history is still on the home computer but you can delete individual pieces of the history so I'm probably out of luck there until I get a keylogger.

I started checking cell phone records and they are OK. We have 5 years of hard copy cell phone records in a file cabinet because he won't trash anything until he has time to shred it. He teaches a class tonight so I can dig through those then.



I already blew it by letting him know how I found out about the Yahoo thing. Before then, he might have assumed I didn't know about search history since I know so little about computers.

There is no evidence that he is currently having an affair. The slight evidence is that there was one or two in the past: 1) acting weird about a woman from work; 2) shutting down a window fast long after the woman at work was completely out of the picture. I should have come here back then when he would have been more catch-able-in-the-act.



Everything he says is said to female servers at restaurants, female hostesses at restaurants, and female checkers at grocery and other retail stores. The things he says:

Girl has a pierced nose. He says, "The doctor didn't get all the glass shrapnel removed after your wreck."

Girl asks if she can get us anything. He says, "A bag of money would be good."

Girl says "I'll be your server." He says, "When?" She looks confused. He says, "When will you be our server? Today or some other time?"

Girl has a tattoo. He says, "You need to scrub your arm better when you wash up before serving us. You left some ink on it."

Girl asks if we'd like menus. He says, "Yes. I spent all that time earning my Ph.D. so that I can read a menu."

Girl says "Did you find everything?" He says, "No. We weren't looking for everything."

Girl says, "How was everything?" He says, "I don't know. We didn't eat everything. I had a steak and she had the soup."

I call these repeat phrases he uses flirting because their only reason for existence is to draw attention to him.

Every now and then, 2-3 times a year, when there is an obvious crude remark that can be made, the remark that 50 other people in the room could think of to say but then don't say it, he says it. It comes out of his mouth. The only specific example I can remember is the one that was in writing: "Don't you know it's a bad idea to say Blond and Blow to a guy in the same sentence?"

I don't see that he has no respect for me; I don't see what you see. I do see a man who wants to always be on stage so perhaps that is disrespectful. I'm not trying to argue with you but I am and have always been a certain way that might be what prevents me from seeing disrespect directed at me. My childhood stories might illustrate: I have never taken negative opinions of others upon myself. Perhaps I am too arrogant and have been so since my earliest memories. It is a fact that my older brother and sister treated me poorly at times when I was 5 (I can come up with the age based on where we lived at the time.) Instead of crying when they called me a stupid baby afraid of going in the water, I thought in my head: I wonder what is wrong with these two that they call other people names? When they brought me a shoebox to say they had a birthday present for my 6th birthday, I was instantly touched that they had done that rather than have our mom do it. I opened the box and found a rock. They shouted "April Fool!" and ran off laughing. What 6-year-old would not have had a nuclear melt down? I didn't. I just thought, "Oh yeah. It's them. I shouldn't have fallen for that one. Won't do it again." My mom told me I was always the stange independent one; an adult in a child's body.

I'm working to stay open to your ideas. I know I have plenty of blind spots so this could be one.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Too funny! By the way, my screenname means I'm climbing towards 50 (I'm 48) but when I get there, I'm going to keep climbing towards 100. I'm not going over the hill until I blow out 100 candles on my birthday cake. Then I'll use a good piece of cardboard to slide down the other side


No I haven't, but that's a good reminder. I didn't have time this past 3-day weekend as we stayed busy having some fun. I don't want to read from home because this is my site, not his. Isn't that being sneaky, just like what cheaters do? How do we justify this? Am I doing wrong to not tell him about MB? What about the fact that I know two of his email passwords and he doesn't know that I know. Hmmmm . . . It feels wrong. I know you can't spy if you don't sneak, but what about keeping all of MB from his knowledge? I really don't like having to create two different camps in my house. I'm sure nobody does.



Thank you very much. You are incredibly kind and helpful. I read your story and was amazed.

Regardless of whether my husband did or did not have an affair in the past, I believe he is certainly capable. I need to learn the MB way to reduce the possibilities. I'd rather be able to say, "That's impossible. He would never do that." I hate having to put energy into a spy program. Now I'm wondering how everyone in recovery can stand to keep going with the constant monitoring. We shouldn't have to be the police. Oh well. :RollieEyes:

Questions:

1) If I am in his email from my work, will he be able to tell if he tries to get in at the same time?

2) How do I hide the keylogger from him on the home computer, especially if I have to tell the virus protection to ignore it? Is there a way?

3) If I put a voice activated recorder in his car and in his workroom at home, will it make some kind of noise that might alert him?

Thanks

Too funny! By the way, my screenname means I'm climbing towards 50 (I'm 48) but when I get there, I'm going to keep climbing towards 100. I'm not going over the hill until I blow out 100 candles on my birthday cake. Then I'll use a good piece of cardboard to slide down the other side

Good goals for you to have.


No I haven't, but that's a good reminder. I didn't have time this past 3-day weekend as we stayed busy having some fun.

This is a good thing....staying busy having fun! Sounds like you have a good start towards your both being able climb towards old age together. Just don't be lulled into complacency....my story illustrates what can happen if you try to trust without verifying.

I don't want to read from home because this is my site, not his. Isn't that being sneaky, just like what cheaters do? How do we justify this? Am I doing wrong to not tell him about MB? What about the fact that I know two of his email passwords and he doesn't know that I know. Hmmmm . . . It feels wrong. I know you can't spy if you don't sneak, but what about keeping all of MB from his knowledge? I really don't like having to create two different camps in my house. I'm sure nobody does.

I had the same inner conflict and even started a thread about it called "I LIED to get WS TRUTH; Do ends justify means?" You'll notice others have similar concerns.



Thank you very much. You are incredibly kind and helpful. I read your story and was amazed.

Thanks. I hope that by my sharing it I will help others avoid my devastation, if possible. I can't post much during the daytime but others will continue to help you as long as you remain open to suggestions.

Regardless of whether my husband did or did not have an affair in the past, I believe he is certainly capable. I need to learn the MB way to reduce the possibilities. I'd rather be able to say, "That's impossible. He would never do that."

You are in the enviable position of possibly being able to be pre-emptive since you've found potential tools to help you verify his actions. It will be well worth the work (and feelings of being sneaky) if you find out more before anything develops further.

I hate having to put energy into a spy program. Now I'm wondering how everyone in recovery can stand to keep going with the constant monitoring. We shouldn't have to be the police. Oh well. :RollieEyes:


No, we shouldn't. But the alternative (denial) will only exacerbate and prolong any potential pain. Maybe it will help if you look at it from the perspective that you have the privilege of being able to invest into the safety of your marriage. Most of us would give anything to have had that chance pre-A.

Wishing you the best,

Ace

The keylogger is invisible. It's only visible if you touch the keyboard with a certain combo of keys that only you know. So the anti-virus can load up as normal and it knows to ignore the keylogger program.

But it will treat it like a virus if you try to install the program with your anti-virus running. So you have to disable it to install it. Once it's installed you can go back and tell the anti virus to overlook the keylogger when you go into the options menu.

Those comments you mention aren't flirting. I was imagining things like actual flirting.

I guess I'd have to hear the tone of voice in which he says such things because my first reaction to the examples you gave was, "this guy is an [censored]!"

Look at your online cell phone bills. Setup an online account for your cell phone company and you can access the history there.

That would be my fault. I use the word too generally. Sorry 'bout that. It is very hard to communicate the real picture in writing.

Thank you so much for the keylogger info. It seems I'll have to use that over a long time period since there is no current new evidence to add to the story. I found nothing in the hard copy cell phone records last night and nothing has showed up in either email I know about.

He gave his Yahoo explanations trickle-truth style with a change in part of the story so that made his trust-worthiness factor go down even further. What part of telling the whole truth all at once to help fix things don't they get? My parents drilled that idea into our brains so it comes automatically, but now I can really see how it works for the best.

I read several posts last night and have a desire to give back by helping someone. I didn't come up with anything to add on anyone's thread but I'm hoping with experience, and more reading, I'll be able to become a contributing member here.