My question is simple: As a BS, how can you feel sure that your WS isn't just entering a "reverse fog" when they come back to the marriage?

Here's what I mean:

While a WS is "in the fog", here are some things that they often do:

• Rewrite history to paint the BS as the bad guy and OP as a saint.
• Tell the BS, "I never really loved you."
• Pick out ordinary flaws in the BS and exaggerate them.
• Withdraw from the BS and put up walls against BS meeting their emotional needs.
• (These are just a few examples, there are many more).

When a WS comes back to the marriage, isn't that exactly what they do in regards to the OP? When/if my WW comes back to the marriage, won't she just be rewriting history again to suit her needs at the time? For example:

If my WW comes back to our marriage, it would be in her best interest to say things like, "I never really loved the OP, it was just a period of insanity and I don't why I did it. I now see OM for the slime he really is." BUT WOULD IT BE TRUE?

My WW thought she "loved" another guy for about a year. This forum/website seems to promote the idea that the WS comes out of "the fog" and into the clear air, and then sees the affair for what it really was, but how do I know she's not just coming out of the fog caused by OM and into fog caused by me? At that point, she would be rewriting history again (saying she wasn't really in love, etc), which would just be more lies.

Hope this makes sense...

Being a wayward is about being selfish and taking.

No, its not true. Waywards really DO love the OP in most cases. But it is not a sustainable love and is often based on FANTASY.

I agree, but is coming back to the marriage NECESSARILY about giving, or could it just be more taking?

If my WW comes back to the marriage and falls in love again, won't she just be "rewriting the history of the affair" if she tells me things like "she was never in love", etc?

-When WW was in love with OM, she rewrote history to make BS look bad.
-When WW falls in love with BS again, she rewrites history to make OM look bad.

See what I mean?

Well, love is a "fog". And it is often discussed that the BS is often in a "fog" of their own.

You are really asking if she comes back and now says she "always loved me" can I believe her? The answer is NO! I mean really NO!

You see love is not a "feeling" it is actions and her actions clearly are not acts of love toward you. So what you need to see from her is not her words but her actions. She needs to act "loving" not "feel" loving toward you. She needs to do the things married people do for one another and if you want a clue, check out Harley's four rules for a good marriage.

I will leave you with something else to consider. Essentially when she decided to cheat, she ended the marriage. That is why we talk about rebuilding a marriage, because an affair leave is rubble. It is your call if you want to rebuild a marriage with this woman, and she will have to show you with actions NOT talk. Thus the issue of "fog" is far less important than the issues of actions, future goals, boundaries, and plans to maintain boundaries. If you don't see these things, you don't have anything to rebuild with.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

Not at all. I don't understand how you are making the equation. Just because one is based on a fantasy does not mean the other is. You are saying "an affair is a fantasy therefore marriage must be too." An affair is almost always based on a fantasy, a marriage is not.

A lot of people around here talk about "fog", and it seems like the word is used (sometimes) to mean that the WS is experiencing something that is not real with the OP.

My WW claims she loved the OM, that he was the best sex of her life, that he listened to her better than anyone, etc etc. Sometimes when you hear people on this forum describe "fog", it sounds like they're trying to convince you that it wasn't real, but how could that not be real?

It's like I'm competing (in my mind, not openly) against this incredible guy, and I can't imagine living up to his standards. I'm willing to do w/e it takes for my WW...

Right! The "feelings" of infatuation/love are REAL...Your wife really did FEEL that way about OM...However, her feelings were not based on reality...The reality is, she did not live in the real world with OM...Did not share a mortgage/bills, smell morning breath, deal with a flooded basement, nurse a sick child back to health and so on and so forth...Basically she had a "teenage love" for OM...

AND, what JL told you is also true...Your wife did not truly love the OM or you at the time...She was NOT using love as a VERB with either of you really - the actions she was performing with OM were only about getting HER NEEDS met - pure manipulation...So it wasn't real love...

Now, if your wife comes back to you and begins to really love you in action, her feelings will naturally follow...If you are also loving her in action, your feelings will also follow...When you begin meeting each other's emotional needs and spending 15 hrs/wk together having intimate conversation, affection, recreational activity and sexual fulfillment, you will both fall in romantic love with each other...When that happens, the OM will absolutely pale in comparison to you...Because your relationship will have all those feelings AND actions AND be grounded in REALITY...Powerful, powerful mix...

Mrs. W

So if WW comes back to the marriage and starts the reverse fog, it will be OK because that fog is grounded in reality, whereas her fog related to OM was founded in this fantasy world of teenage love?

That makes sense to me.

LOL...Okay, but when it's REALITY it isn't fog...Clear as mud?

Mrs. W

IP,

Let see she has not filed for divorce so she can be with this "incredible love machine" has she? Why not? It is not her morals that are slowing her down, you and I both know she is a little deficient in those. So what is it? My bet, is that in the "real world" this guy does not offer her what you do.

Have you considered offering her freedom so that she can be with this "incredible lover" who she loves and has unparalleled skills in bed? If so what did she say? If she is not certain why do you want her in your life?

You say you are willing to do whatever it takes for your W are you willing to let her go if she is so much happier with her OM?

I am not saying you should, but given your length of marriage and your lack of children and her interest in finding someone "better", it is something you should consider.

Here is what I am thinking. When we marry we say a bunch of vows. One of them essentially says, that although at any given time there will be better folks out there for us, we have stopped looking, we have stopped taking applications, and we are going to be faithful to the person we CHOSE to be our spouse.

Your W has not gotten that memo. The OM is better than you in her mind right now. He might not be in a year or two years who knows. But the fact that she has been taking applications and has not indicated to you, that she is going to stop taking application (not working on the marriage) indicates she may still be in the "fog", but that she also needs to come up with a plan to protect her boundaries once she has defined some.

Your problem isn't that he is "better". There are always "better" out there at any given moment. Your problem is she is taking applications for better and has not decided that this violates any vows that are important to you.

I can state to you after 30+ years of marriage, my W can find "better" out there in any category you chose to pick. I can assure you I can find "better" out there. Neither of us are looking because we made our choice.

YOu need to start to understand that marriage is not about you being the "best". You are not and will not be. What you need to do is stick with your choice, just as she should. If she doesn't want to do that, then you need to find a woman with boundaries, honor, and integrity. THose without it keep taking applications.

I hope something I have said is of help.

God Bless,

JL

Oh, man! So much low hanging fruit here I don’t hardly know where to begin. A veritable smorgasbord of unwarranted assumptions.


You are ignoring LTAs. An MB trained marriage coach once told me that an LTA/VLTA becomes more real to the adulterer than the marriage. It is the marriage that becomes the illusion, the fantasy, for both WS and BS (the BS just does not know it yet) if the adultery goes on long enough. And that seems to be around a year or so.



IP705, make a note of this. The only WS worth rebuilding with are those who truly made a mistake and know it. Here is where the odds lie:

A one time, first and only time, drunken ONS.

A one and only very short adultery stopped almost immediately by the WS and confessed almost immediately, without a hint of justification.

There are a very, very small minority of genuine mistakes, tripping and falling (and picking themselves up) when least expected. No lying, no hiding, no false recoveries, no justifications, no complaining, no comparing, no withdrawal, no blaming (during any phase of the adultery or the recovery) of the BS, no nothing but complete confession, remorse and total humble acceptance of consequences. It’s obvious the WS didn’t even want to be in the A in most cases and got the he11 out almost immediately.

But these few are limited exceptions that prove the rule. All the rest are who they are.

So, we are seeing maybe two or three percent adulterers who do not do it again, or do not dearly wish they could do it again.

More information needs to be gathered about the adulterers before their BS are advised to stick it out, even if just for a few months because MB works a lot less than advertised.

The percentage of marriages that end due to adultery is much higher than admitted around here.

The percentage of adulterers who truly did make a mistake and are not core adulterers is much, much lower than readily admitted here. And these adulterers can be identified – really, these mistaken adulterers can usually be identified – and their BS actually has a slim chance to work with them.

But the rest of the adulterers in the universe, a vast 97 and 44 one-hundredths percent majority, need to be left behind as soon as possible.

A BS not told this right up front is being lied to by omission.




In a word: Fickle…it’s who they really are.

Aphelion, I would agree in your case, that a marriage that experiences a 12[?] year affair is a fantasy and the affair is the real deal. For once we agree!

Mel, you snake in the grass. We agree a lot more than I let on. I just hate to admit it in public. For example, I heartily agree with your posts to JulieW. They are right on.

eta: It's a compliment, Mel...don't get used to it.

You said "if it's reality it isn't fog", but it has all the same traits, such as:

rewriting history
withdrawn from OP
claiming it was never really love
etc

Are we deceiving ourselves by somehow thinking that the person has "come to their senses" when in reality they're just blinded by the BS now and not the OP?

I'm a competitive guy, and the whole "best sex she's ever had" bothers me so much. I have always been willing to do anything for her in bed, literally. It just hurts me to think that no matter what I do, I can't take that away. She's always going to look back on some amazing sexual experiences that have nothing to do with me, and how can I measure up to that?

IP, be thankful you are not in my shoes, or shorts or whatever...Wife and I were virgins on our wedding night. She is still the only person I have been with. So now what do I do? Go out and get my own experience? Pay on the street for training?

Marital SF is a lost cause after adultery, IMO.

I'm in the same position. I've only ever been with my wife, and we were virgins on our wedding day.

Now she has experiences that I don't have, and can never have.

Why do you say marital SF is a lost cause? That's not what I generally read around here, but to be honest it does make sense. Can "marriage sex" ever live up to "affair sex"? I can't imagine that it could, given that the secrecy and deception and extreme emotional attachment isn't there.

Sucks to be us...

I think what Aphelion is saying (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is that you don't "compete with" or "measure up to" that.

FWIW, I agree completely with the exceptions that Aphelion outlined, and from reading your profile at the bottom of your posts ... your WW is not an "exception".

You are young and have a relatively short M with no kids ... so you don't "compete" in this situation ... you remove yourself from the source of your unhappiness.

Okay...If you are living day to day life with your wife...All the "bad" or "mundane" stuff going on AND you are both still doing everything to meet each other's needs...spending all of your free time together - focusing on your marriage and the protecting and cultivating of it and so on...Then of course it is REAL...More real than anything she had with OM...It is her whole life then...(Yes, Aphelion, I would say that you are correct about a 12+ year affair...that imo is a bird of a different feather altogether.)

IP705, do you expect that marriages are just supposed to "be"...That you don't have to "work" at them? That "love" is just some overwhelming "feeling" that exists "just cuz"?

I do have to ask, you are only 25 with a very young marriage and no children...Are you certain that you wish to recover your marriage?

Mrs. W