You will read a lot of stuff around here that is not grounded in reality, which has no bearing on individual and specific cases. Most of what you see here is a lumped parameter median expectation and advice for which no real marriage ever existed. It’s like an average of a collection of samples that lands where no actual sample existed.

I say lost cause because, just as you note, what in the hll can we possibly we do about it now?

There are a few of us wedding night virgin BHs around here. We seem to have a much harder time of it than guys who had SF experience before their marriage. I have never seen that issue addressed, either. I wonder why, too.

Probably because there is no effective answer in our cases.

Possibly because we are thought of as weirdoes for waiting until we married. I sometimes detect sniggering behind raised sleeve from the other BH here.

I do not agree. Our sex life is amazing.

Mr. W and I were not virgins when we met though...So, I'll give you that I can see where it would be incredibly difficult in the situation that you describe...

Mrs. W

your secret is safe with me. Wouldn't want you to get kicked out of the He-Man Mel Hater's Club.

Upon reading Aphelion's responses to this, it seems like you can take this checklist to your situation and evaluate right then and there if it's worth it:

Actually, looking at it this way could clarify things, depending on the situation of course.

I'm relatively young, but I've known my wife for 13 years (that's over 1/2 my life), and we dated throughout high school and college. We were best friends through middle school and into early high school before we dated. She's literally all I've ever known. I've never even kissed another woman. I truly do love her and want what's best for her.

I guess I say that to let you all know that although I'm young, there is a lot of history there (I can't remember life without her, as I was only 11 years old when we "met").

Now she has essentially recommitted to the marriage (although not on the terms I would like, she claims to be working on things in her own way, I do see evidence to that effect). She has broken off contact (although not necessarily because that is what she wants), and we spend a lot of time together now. I can see the fog lifting every day (1 percent per day roughly), and her perspective is slowly changing.

I just can't imagine living up to what this other guy gave her (whether it was fantasy or not, it doesn't matter). She always says stuff like, "now I see what a relationship could be" etc, and it just kills me. How can SF ever be there again? She will always be comparing me and I just can't imagine I'll ever stack up, because I don't have the fantasy/secrecy on my side, and he did.

I don't believe she will always see things that way, IP705...

Something that Mr. W and I did early in recovery was to get His Needs, Her Needs on cd. We listened to it together on a roadtrip, pausing to talk when we wanted to...It marked a very significant turning point in our recovery...

Something to for you guys to try.

Mrs. W

IP,

I'm not as young as you are, but my H slept with a woman with a lot of sexual experience.

I am pretty intimidated by that.


Then, about 2-3 weeks after d-day, my H got cancer. Our sex life was cut off for about two years following his surgery. There was a 25% chance that we would never have sex again - EVER - and a rather large chance that our sex life would not ever be "normal" (whatever that is).

I was devastated, because for me that meant that the last woman on his mind sexually would have been...


The Other Woman.


Hard to consider that you husband's last sexual encounter, last thoughts of sex, would be his betrayal of you.





I had three weeks before his surgery to work on him.

I can tell you that his three weeks included the best sex of his life.

So you can make her SF better than with him. It is possible. You can choose to improve yourself, overcome the pain, and make this a challenge, or you can just shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, she will never forget him anyway. It sucks to be me."

Your choice. But I can tell you, I'm glad I chose the path I chose, because it made it possible for me to help my husband recover his sexual function post-surgery. I would never have had the courage and lack of embarrassment had I not jumped into this river beforehand. It payed off.

The OW is a long ago and distant memory for him. He has never said anything about her prowess again.


SB

I want to improve myself, but I just can't see how. I have ALWAYS been willing to do anything in bed for her, even before and during the A. I can't be any more willing to please her now than I've ever been.

I'm a pretty attractive guy (I get hit on by girls a lot, I play sports and stay in shape, and I have essentially unlimited endurance in bed). I mean wtf, there's gotta be someone who can be satisfied by me. It just sucks, because I love my wife, and want it to be her.

IP,

How about looking at "the fog" as the state of addiction caused by the endorphins and dopamine pleasure chemicals saturating a wayward's brain produced by stimulus generated by the OP; by the OP's voice, words, touch, sexual actions, etc. AND this is also reciprocated by the wayward back onto the OP, so they are FEEDING EACH OTHER'S FIRE which intensifies the chemical reaction even more.

While being in this fogged out addiction, the chemically saturated brain is not working on all cylinders. The thinking is altered and their words and actions are not the norm. That's why you see 25 pages of text messaging and hours and hours of phone calls.

Just lately we have had a BS's WW agreeing to being photographed and videoed while rutting with OP. As she came out of the fog, she was totally humiliated and grief stricken realizing what she had done. And this is a mature upstanding mother of 3!!

Now when the wayward comes out of the fog...OUT OF THE ADDICTION, withdrawing from the OP, those chemicals dry up in the brain and wayward comes back to reality.

The wayward does not, (unfortunately) go into another addiction for her/his spouse.

There are no pleasure chemicals pouring into WW's brain when starting to rebuild the marriage, but more like extreme self loathing, guilt, despair and uncertainty.

So that is why many WWs will cautiously half a$$ commit to the marriage (at first). They are actually at the lowest point in this whole mess, aching for the chemicals but accepting reality and facing the music.

""but how do I know she's not just coming out of the fog caused by OM and into fog caused by me?""

She is coming (back) into reality, my friend.

As Aphelion so eloquently puts it "It sucks to be us".

IMHO

kirk

IP,

There is a thread that went around maybe 2 weeks ago that said "I want what the OM had".

Big Kahuna wrote back and said are you giving her what the OM did?

He then said the day after his Dday "HE ASKED HER WHAT HE COULD DO THAT THE OM DID?" Or words to that effect.

I say that takes MUCHO CAJONES to go that route.

I hear what you are saying though about the "both virgins on the wedding night" and then she obtains some additional training.

I feel for you brother.

kirk

IP,

With all due respect to Ap and his rather unusual situation, he is wrong. Marriages do survive affairs at a rather large rate. He is still married to his own W, his own comments not withstanding.

However, surviving an affair is not the same as rebuilding a marriage and having one that is rewarding to one another. However, on this site there are examples of just such successes, and that includes Mrs. W.

You seem to keep ignoring what I am telling you so I will say this one last time. You cannot compete with OM in the fantasy world. If you are going to use the "I don't know the difference because she is the only one" argument, then you don't have a chance.

Your W can come back and be a good W but she is the one that has to have a plan to protect the marriage, and her own boundaries. Unless she can tell you something more than "I'm sorry", or "I love you now." you don't have much of a chance of rebuilding this marriage, perhaps not even saving it.

You want to compare yourself to OM and if you think the only basis for comparison is his "abilities in the SF department", then you are viewing the world as your W did when she was having the affair.

Our comments are not that you have to be in a "fog" to rebuild. Our comments are that you need to honestly evaluate if her behavior, her plans, her view of the world is something you can live with. If it is not, then leave. At your age, I personally would tell you to do that. But, I also know of young folks that have survived an affair and led happy lives and marriages for over 30 years beyond such affairs.

YOU MAKE THE CALL AND QUIT TRYING TO AVOID IT BY WONDERING IF YOU ARE IN A FOG OR NOT.

THe tools here offer a way to rebuild, but eventually both of you must decide you want to rebuild in a manner that is satisfactory to both of you. IF she wants to do it her way, and has no consideration for what you need, then end the marriage.

But, you are wise to allow her "fog" to clear to determine what she will do. You on the other hand have to decide if "mine is bigger than yours" is a way to evaluate a relationship/marriage. If your sole use to her is in the rack, then she doesn't want a marriage she wants a dildo.

Young man, it is time you decided what YOU want and act accordingly. If it is to give rebuilding a chance do it. If it is not, then end it.

God Bless,

JL

You are ignoring Anatomy 101.

It is generally difficult to tell when a woman is faking SF. It is almost impossible for a man to fake SF. In fact, if a man has to fake it there will be nothing going on anyway.

A BH who can’t do it with the adulterer is a pickle of a different squirt than the BW who wishes she didn’t have to do it with the adulterer.

Different issues and results entirely.

IP, here is my humble opinion. If the above statement does not make her cringe or want to puke after the A is over and she has gone completely NC with the OM, then it was probably more a character flaw in your WW than a momentary lapse. Remorse, true remorse is how you will know. I honestly would not want to recover with a WS that is not truly remorseful.
Does that make sense?

LOL, overall US survival rate is less than 30%. Low as 10% in some studies. Seems to me we've discussed these numbers before.

Most of what I see of MB results is that it mainly increases the average time between the most recent D-Day and the final Day-of -D.

But if you want to look only at rewarding Ms, I’d say that call is very subjective and highly relative. If the M was good before the adultery, and it usually is, what is quite so rewarding to the BS as the stopping of the active abuse? Like when someone stops hitting you over the head with a 2x4. When that pain stops all other benefits feel like gravy.

In reality there is little gravy to go around in the real world. The self-proclaimed rewarding Ms after adultery, especially after egregious adultery, sound like whistling past the graveyard. If you just look at MB helped M’s after adultery it appears to be around 3%.

You know, the most successful M’s after adultery are the ones in which the BS never find out at all. They may live a constrained M in an invisible box, but they are relatively well rewarded, relatively speaking, for their ignorance.

But, I’m still willing to be convinced.

great point !! OP, my wife said the same thing about sex being better but she linked it to the emotional connection that made it great. Is your wife truely remorseful ? Are you sure ? If so, was she looking for better sex in the affair ? Or was it EA + PA ?

It was EA + PA. My wife is not remorseful. She says a lot that she's sorry that she hurt me, but she can't honestly say at this point that she's sorry for the A in general.

I'll list out some positives and negatives of my current situation right now:

Positives

• No contact is firmly established, and she appears to be slowly coming out of the fog. Although she admits she still wants to talk to OM and misses him, I think she sees that NC is best.
• We had a great relationship pre-A, and we truly loved each other for a long time before the A (since we were both 16). So she would be giving up on a lot of history.
• OM is married, and is working on his marriage (as far as I know), so there is much less chance of a relapse, as he's not pursuing her.
• WW agreed to MC, and I have a call in to set that up right away. We should be in our first MC session together sometime this week.
• Our relationship is actually really good right now, all things considered. I'm in a good Plan A, and we actually have a lot of fun together now. Our A-related conversations are not pleasant, but they are calm and productive for the most part. We spend probably 40 hours a week of one-on-one time, and she actually wants it (I'm not smothering her). I meet the needs she lets me meet, basically.
• Her family and friends (for the most part) are "on my side" so to speak. They're all telling her to stay married, and she understands that if she leaves me, a lot of our mutual friends will suddenly drop out of her life (as they'll continue to be friends with me, but would understand that I wouldn't want her around at that point).

Negatives-

• The issue of remorse is a tricky one, as we have a lot of trouble communicating without feeling like the other person has an agenda, but here's what I gather: She's definitely sorry that she hurt me, and I think she's sorry for the A in general, but she's not sorry for her "relationship" with the OM. Hope that makes sense.
• She sees the A as a real relationship, and does not acknowledge any fantasy aspect to it.
• One of my big problems pre-A was that I was controlling/manipulative (her words, but I see some truth there). So it's hard to do anything without appearing that way. Even when I do something nice, she sees an agenda.
• No contact seems solid now, but if OM left his marriage and came back for my WW, I couldn't say for sure she'd stay with me (in fact I doubt she would at this point, but I get more and more sure every day).
• She's essentially placating me right now. She makes half-a$$ commitments followed by "this is all I can do right now" or "just because I'm not doing this your way doesn't mean I'm not trying". For example, I asked her to agree to take my feelings into account before she acts, and she said she wouldn't agree to that because she feels like that would be used against her and I would control her by using my feelings to make her do things.

All this being said, I LOVE MY WIFE. I really do. I'm not scared to be without her, and I definitely don't have the feeling of love for her right now, but I truly love her. I want what's best for her. So for all of you saying I need to make a decision, I have... my decision is that I want to stay and fix our marriage. I really loved our marriage before the A. I grew up with my wife and our relationship was a friendship first, so we have a really strong emotional bond. She's absolutely gorgeous and I always loved SF. Basically to me, it's a marriage worth fighting for, despite her A.

On the flip side, I don't want to fight a hopeless fight... which is why I keep laying our my situation here. It helps to hear other people's perspective on my situation and get opinions.

IP,

I see a disconnect here that worries me.

You said
Whether her preception is correct those two quotes are not consistent. You see one thing, she sees another.

Here lack of effort is very consistent with the "fog", but other comments in general are worrisome.

You started by asking if you "deceiving Ourselves". I would answer yes you are deceiving yourself. Look at the quotes above.

I understand your desire to heal this marriage. I agree with it...up to a point. But, you MUST step back and really look at things clearly and that starts with your boundaries and what you will accept in your marriage. You need to address those things, and see if she rises to those standards.

Her statements to date are not enough to rebuild a marriage upon. If they change as the "fog" clears then you have a chance. If they remain the same your last statement comes into play. You will be fighting a hopeless battle because you will be battling yourself and your knowledge that she doesn't care enough to address your issues with her decisions.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

How long since the A ended and NC been in place? The reason I ask is she sounds like someone still in C. Do you have spyware on her computer? Is it possible that some one way contact is still going on? What I mean is, does OM have a myspace, facebook, flickr or something that she can look at without having direct contact?

Couple of things...

1) Sorry i havent read your thread. But have you contacted OM's wife ?
2) Your situation is not too far from mine ...(i have been married longer though) except for the remorse part...where i am not sure where you wife is. You have to make sure there is no contact. Looks like she is still in the fog to me. My wife did admit that Affair was a fantasy and not real (finally !!)
3) Same here...I love my wife...I want to stay in this marriage. But I am not desparate anymore. What have been doing lately to focus on yourself ? New hobbies may be ?
4)About hopeless fight. I cant say been there done that (yet) but I am fighting because i see some hope. That does not mean i am not preparing myself for other alternatives.
5) What have you done to change your behavior ? Love Busters all gone ?

The disconnect is based on our perceptions of the marriage. Her view of the marriage pre-A is not the same as mine. She doesn't think our marriage was good pre-A. I spend every day trying to sift through what is "foggy rewriting of history" and what is really true. It's not an easy thing to do.

In order to make our marriage better, I'm following Plan A as if she's not in the fog at all, except in cases where she's just obviously rewriting history.

As for the discrepancy, I really believe we had a good relationship pre-A for the most part. We each had flaws, and I did tend to be controlling, but not to the extent that she claims I am today.