I don't see why the joke would be a problem unless she is taking offense. If she was in a lighthearted mood I'd say no prob.

The next part about not "feeling" romantic is where I try to emphasize to everyone that its not about feelings. Dr. Harely is very clear that unless there is abuse or drugs etc, that the best thing for 99% of marriages is to stay and work it out despite FEELINGS. At some point all of us wake up and say I don't like you anymore. I don't feel in love. I don't feel..... blah blah blah. If everyone acted on feelings no one would ever work would they?! I don't get up and say wow I feel like working all day at a crappy job for little pay. Feelings betray us. Help her see this point by stating your feelings for her during this awful time. You could be hating her. But you are not acting on your feelings are you?! Your actions are based on your goal of a great marriage and loving her as Jesus loved us, forgivingly.

I know you are struggling with advice in funnytwos thread about people saying don't let her walk all over you and file for D so she wakes up etc. I agree its a very fine line and I didn't feel I established boundaries very well either. Since I (you) cannot control her its like well what are my (your) boundaries right??!! Try reading through my old threads because I got pages of "boundaries" from other posters. If she chooses to go out with him tomorrow night oh well. You cannot lock her in the house. But you can state your boundaries to her and express your feelings clearly about how she is attacking your marriage with such actions.

How did exposure go with your son?? (ugh, heartbreak)

As for the visiting her house thing. My first reaction is this will only sanction her situation if you sit there and are made to feel welcome. Then OM walks in while you are sipping tea?!?! NO NO NO. Don't ever shake his hand. I think you might say Spouse, if I set foot in that house knowing what you have done there while betraying our marrige I might puke and want to destroy the new furniture you are buying so forget it. BOUNDARIES. No accepting other house with OM.

No visiting unless picking up son or dropping off and for sure no interaction with him. If she won't be there and OM is there to receive son then again PUKE! I think you want to puke on anything that OM has touched (including her HAHA

I do agree with your assessment about OM reaction to you visiting and doing "things" with your wife in the other place. But I guess still advise against accepting anything related to OM including the house.

I think you might reserve some former anger for such invitations. In other words, you used to have AO at her, now have them at OM. It wouldn't just be inappropriate for you to be there but "Spouse, when I think of OM and the things that you are doing with him it honestly makes me feel like wringing his neck or breaking his legs. Please be sure he knows I never want to see his ugly face!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are deciding to move out of this marriage and into a house with another man. Why do you think I will be ok with that and want to visit you? You are destroying my love and our family."

Unfortunately I'm busy today but just quickly logging on to say thanks for your advice and comments once again. Have not done the exposure to son yet - probably tomorrow (awaiting response from school so that I know they are prepared) Feeling very low and worried about that. Remaining cool in front of WW but my pain seems worse as I approach that horrid deed to do with my son. WW continues to be cheerful and looking forward to her new home with OM and then switching to worry that she is doing the right thing. Hard thing handling these swings but getting used to it. Her main concern yesterday seemed to be which sofa she would buy!

I have gone into a deep depression in the last two days, I suppose because the reality of W leaving is hitting home.

My son now knows. He seems to have taken it well at the moment for which I am thankful but I still fear for his future.

Repeated things to WW in a firm way - that the marriage has never had a chance in the last 5 years because although there have been problems you were always having an A. -that the only way the marriage will ever work is if you end your A - that I'm not happy that our son will be brought up by another man.

Hope I didn't do any LB

Very surprised this afternoon. Got a knock on the door and it was the mother of a good friend of my son's from school who came to offer sympathy. It is also useful that she does a few hours work a week for the school. My WW was out and we could talk freely. I had told her H of my WW A two days ago. She is obviously on my side as I learned after speaking to her. So exposure is great and shouldn't be feared!

WW in evening was cool and receptive. But I have at last learned not to believe anything. She is trying to keep me sweet.

Wonderful people on this site am I doing OK?

K,

Bravo and thank god for friendly outgoing family friend.

You are doing great. You keep bringing reality to the situation. You brought a perfect point up at the perfect time regarding your marriage never had a chance during the last 5 years because WW hasn't been committed to it as evidenced by her affair! That was a great BOUNDARY related statement!!

Now for the sales job that you have to do: At that point (above) of stating a fact then you ASK her something like "Spouse, I know I have screwed up many things in our marriage and as a human I will screw things up in the future BUT will you give us a real chance at a really great marriage by reading this book with me? Thats all I ask, 1 book. Not that you don't move out (removes pressure remember??) Not that you tell me you are committed because I know you don't know right now (see how to affirm her feelings there!?!) but just lets read this together and see if it can help us set our family on a better path."

Don't push for commitment or try to educate her just take a journey with her side by side.

Remember, very few sales are made through convincing. Leading them where to go with questions is much more effective. Sales are made because the purchaser believes the purchase will solve their needs. Same as ENs from Harley no?!! "spouse, could I meet your EN today?" Well thats what you are subconciously asking but the actual words are something about doing the dishes for her or running her a hot bath when you see her stress has sky rocketed.

Your spouse needs certainty, love, care, honor, respect. Your WW needs truth, reality, and a moral compass. Since hers is broke and the OM is obviously a POS, the only one left is yours!!

You keep being the guiding light. Don't stop leaarning and reading and putting into the relationship what you want out of it. You are up against some terrible odds because the other thing has a 5 year history. BUT your history is longer no?? You are making progress. Personal progress is most rewarding no? Can you feel yourself growing by what you have learned about love busting? WW sees it. Don't let her draw you into fantasy world (her- "everything will be ok, son will be ok, come and visit me"... blah blah blah).

Remember it gets darkest before the dawn. The roller coaster will continue. Expect wavering from her AND yourself. I asked myself constantly if the little tidbits my WW was throwing at me were worth all the pain I was going through. I only got through it by getting inspiration from this forum. People who gave me hope when I thought it was time to throw in the towel.

Can you see the calvary mounting on your side with a surprise visit from caring neighbor! This is God working in your life (IMHO). People standing up for what is true and good and God-ly. Keep acting according to those high and mighty ethics. Your self respect will be rewarded, maybe not with a marriage to this woman but in a life that has purpose and principle! Your son will have the greatest role model!

I tried the 'sales job' about reading the book but to no avail. Her reaction was similar to when I suggested a MC (before knowing about MB) when she replied that all these people are interested in is sticking a plaster on a bad marriage with a huge wound. This time she just showed indifference. Still at least I said again that I have a professional plan to create a new marriage.

I have been in a much better frame of mind in the last two days. I continue to try and meet those ENs for her. She has warmed to me, most notably by giving me a hug before going to bed and sometimes in the morning.

I continue to read and learn, especially from other threads and from the links you have provided. Yes I notice the cavalry coming! Yes, I am beginning to feel stronger in myself, particularly because I feel that there are only two outcomes - a new improved marriage with my W or a new relationship, in both of which I would be much better because of what I have learned here.

Her doubts continue to surface. Yesterday we were together at a shop and while I spent an hour with my son in the leisure facility she went to look at things for her new home. She showed me a photo of a carpet she had just purchased. Because it was good value for money and I liked the style, colour etc. I said I should buy something similar for our home. She said don't do that because I might be bringing it if I return in 6 months. These sorts of things give me hope but I do understand they are still fence sitting and cake eating.

I feel that plan B time would be around end June if needed. This is the time she would be forced to decide on another house lease with OM or come back. Obviously much will happen in the next few months. With her out of the house though I will have little time to fill her EM. I can only hope that with the OM taking on responsibilities cracks begin to occur in their relationship

Thanks big picture for your continuing help.

Well we are currently friendly and I continue to fulfill EN as best I can. Exposure seems to have had no affect. WW continues to buy things for her new home. So what do I do now other than try to be the husband she wants. Any action I can take?

"Feeling stronger in myself" -- GREAT! Book my WWs IC gave her talks about the BS feeling horrible (hey, we didn't have an A...that ain't fair!). Lots of chemicals your brain is releasing to deal with this stress. Hang in there and keep with strong Plan A! Not going to be easy and as BP said you are going to see the rollercoaster.

Keep your spirits up by doing things for YOU when the WW is away -- be that exercise, reading, relaxing, spending time with kiddo, etc. Take care of yourself. I know it's a hard thing to do when your gut is in knots, but try.

And as for "any action I can take?" well, hang in there. When your WW finally moves out reality of the OM and A will set in. He will meet some of her needs, but the fantasy of the A will come crashing down soon enough. She will begin to miss the things you did for her. The fantasy of the OM will begin to fade because he doesn't have the secret weapon -- Plan A! He will start to love bust and her Love Bank will start to run dry.

But be prepared for the following scenario -- she's got your son and wants to dump him off on you last minute, so WW and OM can have some quality time, go out, etc. Don't do it! Find a reason, heck, make up a reason. Force her to live in reality, the reality that is her responsbility to your child!

Hang in there. It is going to get much tougher before it gets better. You have the power and the strength to make this work!

In reference to plan B you wrote...
Try to keep from viewing anything as something that will force her to do anything. Your actions to move to plan B are your own. You own that timeline. It is the time that you protect yourself and live in your virtues. It may or may not help her understand her mistakes or make a decision to move back in with you. Plan B is for you you you. Remember the Genie in Aladdin (Disney)?? "I can't make anyone fall in love." Plan B is not for forcing her hand at anything. Its your time frame to fulfilling the person you have now become. Whether that means you share your life with her or not.

The other day our pastor said Pray Big! He said the church had a $$$$ budgetary deficit but they didn't pray for money, they prayed for a generous congregation of people willing to give and share. Thats a much more powerful force!

You are not praying for a happy marriage but to become the kind of person who will create a healthy happy committed marriage. Moves you you a higher plane no? Thats where the self confidence comes from that will be irresistible to her to co workers to friends and neighbors.

big picture,

I take the points you raise about plan B, in particular that it is for me and for me to decide when the time is right rather than setting a timescale. Also, I follow that I cannot force WW to do anything - rather improve myself and try to let her know through actions that I am a better person.

I haven't posted for a few days as frankly nothing has happened. I continue to try and fulfill her EN and not LB. She continues to prepare for her move. In myself I am beginning to become a little more confident and that I will be a much better husband (after learning from MB) whether it is with WW or someone else.

One question I have is 'What kind of Valentine card (if any) do I send WW?'

K,
Regarding a Vday card. eh. My interpretation of your situation would be not give her a card but moving more towards a "business only" relationship in preparation for plan B.

Although your plan A has to be cut shorter than it should be, the fact that she is moving out and in with another man is too big of a slap in the face. If she were moving out to her own place I might suggest keeping plan A up. But I feel if she moves in with him you want nothing to do with supporting that in any manner and it says plan B at that time IMHO.

Bigpicture,

Thanks for your comments as always.

However, I feel it is still not time for plan B yet. I feel that I have hardly started plan A and yet there may already be some little signs of a positive affect.

In recent days my WW has been more affectionate. Hugs are warmer, more often and initiated by her. Conversations go well. Little touches,a brush on the shoulder, sitting closer together, are occuring. Of course it might be her way of letting me down gently, or coming from her feelings of guilt or her way of comforting me before a final break.

In the background I still have the thoughts of when she has said about purchases she has made coming to our house eventually. It does appear that she has an eye on where the furniture she is buying might fit in at our home. For example when she bought a toy box she said 'well we need another one with the amount of toys our son is accumulating'. When she bought a computer she said that ours is getting too old and needs replacing. Same applied to the television and so on.

Also there is the incompatability with her OM. We both smoke (bad I know), but not in the house. We use a small conservatory at home. She will not have this where she is going and I know the OM is very strongly anti-smoking. I know that OM has completely different interests to my WW. Also the general daily chores will affect their relationship and how will OM cope with taking on a demanding 6 year old. In the last two days I had to work in the evenings which is unusual and my WW found it hard going looking after our son as he is becoming more demanding of her time. I did a few things for her yesterday to ease the pressure on her and was gratefully thanked by text. The OM has a taxi job on at least 3 nights a week and so my WW will have evenings with no assistance with our boy. These things must put pressure on them.

Financially they will also be in difficulty I suspect. The OM does not bring in a large income. My WW has spent lots on her credit cards to set up the new home. I think this could be a source of tension between them.

It seems that I can be in contact more often than I thought with the WW. She has asked me to continue daily contact by email in the day and telephone in the evening. She has spoken about visiting me regularly. She has asked if I can continue to give her lifts home from work when OM cannot - probably 2/3 a week. I have of course refused to step inside her new home and have given no support to her in setting up their love nest.

Nevertheless I understand that this is cake eating and wavering. However it also makes me feel that I ought to continue with plan A at the moment. What do you think?

"What do you think? "

I think you need an eye exam to not see what's going on.

"In recent days my WW has been more affectionate. Hugs are warmer, more often and initiated by her. Conversations go well. Little touches,a brush on the shoulder, sitting closer together, are occuring"

Ask yourself why?

"Of course it might be her way of letting me down gently, or coming from her feelings of guilt or her way of comforting me before a final break."

No it's not.

It's all about your WW keeping you as a back up plan if anything goes wrong with her affair.

It's about your WW manipulating you so you still meet the needs that her OM won't or can't meet.

If you want your WW's PA to end why are you making it easy for her to have an affair?

"she has said about purchases she has made coming to our house eventually. It does appear that she has an eye on where the furniture she is buying might fit in at our home. For example when she bought a toy box she said 'well we need another one with the amount of toys our son is accumulating'. When she bought a computer she said that ours is getting too old and needs replacing. Same applied to the television and so on."

All WW remarks to get you to not cancel joint credit cards, go for a legal separation, leaving you on the hook for the bills that will come when she can't pay them.

"OM cope with taking on a demanding 6 year old. In the last two days I had to work in the evenings which is unusual and my WW found it hard going looking after our son as he is becoming more demanding of her time. I did a few things for her yesterday to ease the pressure on her and was gratefully thanked by text. The OM has a taxi job on at least 3 nights a week and so my WW will have evenings with no assistance with our boy."

Is your middle name door mat?

"These things must put pressure on them."

How long have you been delusional?

How are these things putting pressure on them?
You just pick up the slack.

"It seems that I can be in contact more often than I thought with the WW. She has asked me to continue daily contact by email in the day and telephone in the evening. She has spoken about visiting me regularly."

Again why is WW being so nice?

To be able to keep using you when she can't use the OM.

Example:

"She has asked if I can continue to give her lifts home from work when OM cannot - probably 2/3 a week."

"I have of course refused to step inside her new home and have given no support to her in setting up their love nest."

How is this being a man when you are letting WW use you for car pooling and whatever else her OM is not doing?

WW uses you for chores and uses the OM for sex. Your clearly coming out on the top here.

"However it also makes me feel that I ought to continue with plan A at the moment. What do you think?"

You do not want to hear good advice is what I think.

You stop helping her and you need to plan B now.

Unfortunately you think Denial is a river. It's the fantasy land you are living in.

I suggest that you go to Wal Mart and go buy some balls. There in the pharmacy section. Same aisle as the testosterone.

Then go as Marlon Brando said in the Godfather, act like a man.

K,
Unfortunately ROAD is right about so much. She is using you when its convenient. Cake eating, fence sitting. I agree many of her actions are probably sincere with you but those don't negate her A. The OM is not just a roommate right? Not to mention that it has been going on for 5 years right?

My posts were intended to inspire you to become great marriage material. If you want to save your marriage thats what was needed. Dr. Harley suggests that most marriages should be saved except in cases of abuse or violence. Previously you said you had AOs that could have bordered on abuse in her eyes right? Thats why she is moving out?? Yet the A went on for a long time while you and her were at odds in your marriage home. You have made appropriate changes in yourself which are evident to her in plan A. So you have already proved your worth and she knows it. So ironic isn't it that it seems people will not change until something drastic forces them to such as an A.

As I hinted in previous post I think plan B is appropriate at the time she moves out as Road suggests. However, this is your life and marriage. Only you can make the calls. We are here to provide counsel on MB principals and support you. Dr. Harely himself has said that if you do plan A for awhile and then at the end of some time frame you reassess and ask yourself how you are coping (inner strength) and if you have made any progress with her. If so you may want to stay in Plan A. His words! But if the pain is unbearable to you then plan B. IMHO plan B is to protect yourself more so than anything else.

With all respect, The Road seems to be representing plan B more as punishment for her cake eating ("Don't let her walk all over you!!"). Ahh but you have wronged her too no? Was she letting you walk all over her in the past?? This is why forgiveness is critical in any marriage. While its nice to have balls it might be nicer to have a great marriage and successful family. There is a great example I read in this forum from a betrayed wife whose husband had moved in with OW. She said whenever she saw him she treated him like her best friend (with some boundaries) and guess what? As his fantasy A melted in the reality of everyday living he came to see his wife as the right choice. She did it by avoiding LBing and making deposits in his Love Bank whenever possible. She was just a good person who helped her husband whenever she could. And it worked.

I was intent on saving my marriage because I knew the statistics said her A wouldn't last and I wasn't going to go through the fallout of divorce and breaking my childrens hearts for something that was quite likely temporary. I was right. I kept my eyes on the goal and when she threw her worst at me I plan A'd just the same.

If you feel like Plan A needs more time while the reality of her living with OM kills the A fantasy then by all means do what you think will achieve YOUR goals. In a simple way plan A is about avoiding Love Bank withdrawals and making deposits. Thats it.

I think many veterans around here will agree with me that Plan B is not intended to punish her or have any "affect" on her decisions or actions. Thats why I view plan B more as protection for yourself. Plan B is for when your interactions with her are too painful that you are not coping with daily life. I did reach that point in my plan A and I implemented plan B albeit very short lived. You will also know when plan B is right for your timing. Again IMHO.

If you search my posts you will find Dr. Harley quoted on the plan A reassessment timeframe. He does say 6 months is the guideline max for Plan A. The Harleys have a radio show that you can call in to get quickie free advice. Highly suggested. I would hope other posters here can give you their two cents.

TheRoad,

Is it possible K is making much needed love bank deposits in these instances where you suggest he is being used and abused such as...


and


???

K,

Is she meeting any of your ENs??? Do you still have SF?? Does she give you domestic support? Cook meals? spend time recreationally with you? Have quality time together and good conversations??

big picture and the road,

Haven't posted for a few days while I consider the way to go, although I was busy at the weekend. I have been interested in the conflicting advice given by bigpicture and theRoad, and I have looked around at other threads. It seems that there is much confusion and different opinions on when to plan B. It is my view that since I have only been carrying out plan A for 3 weeks then I really haven't given it enough time and therefore I will continue with plan A for the moment. Indeed, despite advice on this forum I go back to Dr.Harley who suggests up to 6 months for plan A. Let me add some detail to my reasoning and at the same time respond to your comments.

TheRoad says that WW is keeping me as a back up plan. Well so what? I want the A to go wrong and for her to use her back up plan. In fact for many reasons I have already said the A has a good chance of going wrong so why not just continue with plan A at present and watch the A burn out? TheRoad says WW is manipulating me to meet EN that OM cannot. Again so what? If they live together and he can't meet all her EN then good. Meanwhile I have to demonstrate that I can or could meet those needs. TheRoad - there are no joint credit cards or bank accounts.

TheRoad asks if I am a doormat. Well I understand but agree with bigpicture that at the moment I see the things I mentioned as showing affection and attention and therefore are building the love bank. Nevertheless, in the long run I see that I may need to plan B, but not yet. I have not had time to demonstrate through action that I can and will be a better husband, and have not had enough time to build up her love bank.

But do not think that I don't have balls. The question is just when to plan B. In myself I feel much stronger and confident of where I am going, depression has lifted and the pain is easing. I see a future where I will be a better person, more knowledgeable, and someone who will be a great husband. That could be with my WW back or with someone else (no I won't do anything hasty on the rebound). Because of my son I want to give every effort into putting the family unit back together and think that going to plan B now is too hasty. But I have no fear about putting plan B into action. In fact I think my growing confidence is unsettling to the WW and I'm giving her the feeling that I'll be OK however it turns out.

Consequently I agree with bigpicture that its nice to have balls but maybe nicer to have a great marriage. I note the example of the wife avoiding LBing and making love bank deposits whenever possible. This is the strategy for me for a while. I just don't know how long a while is but I'd guess a few months.

Bigpicture,regarding your question about WW meeting my ENs. There is no SF, although we have had intercourse twice early in January. Domestic support continues as always, although because it was one of her criticisms of me I have been helping considerably. She now spends as much time on domestic chores but is doing things that she did not have time to do in the past due to my lack of assistance. She cooks everyday as she always has but I now assist more by doing dishes, peeling potatoes etc. She still spends time recreationally with me - we watch a film or the news on television after our boy has gone to bed (and discuss it), we shop together and we still go out together with our son to the park or swimming or McDonalds, and occasionally have lunch together in town. Yes, we have quality time together, always a 20 minute chat over coffee in the morning before the boy is awake and half an hour in the evenings after work. On one weekend day we are still able to make time for good conversation. All in all not up to the 15 hours but getting there (she does have to fit an A in after all !!!).

She sees OM during her lunch break, 2/3 times a week in morning and for about 4/5 hours on one weekend day. She continue with the strange fog babble, fence sitting, wavering comments. She said that she is now not having sexual relations with either of us because she needs space from both of us. She said that in her new home she is going to be sleeping in separate bedrooms. She explained that she is only moving in with OM because she could not afford a decent place on her own and needs to share expenses, but that she definately needs her space and time away from me to 'get her head straight'. She said she and OM will live 'kind of separate'. All garbage perhaps but I'm just reporting what she has told me.

She continues to purchase things for her new home but always seems to have an eye on where things might go in our house.

One final point is that I asked her again to read HNHN to which she agreed this time but only after she has settled into her new accomodation.

Well, thanks as always for reading and any comments, even harsh ones, are welcome.

Hang in there Kang.

I've been away on vacation, so just read your update today. Sounds as if your WW is having second thoughts about her OM. Keep Plan A-ing your behind off. Make your home the most welcoming place you can. Avoid LB's, fill her love bank, and give the affair time to crumble!

This is the hardest time for the BS. I went through this for over 6 months during A#1...and i didn't even know my WW was having an affair. Had no idea about MB.com, but just felt it was the right thing to do to work on my marriage and try to meet my wifes needs (lucky i guess).

But it was pretty much pure hell for me. Looking back I see the fog, the babble, love busters she threw at me, and I at her. I kept asking if there was another man and she kept denying. I was too nieve and young to know how to dig deeper.

Hang in there! We are with you!!!