I tend to look at things optimistically. I can't imagine that either of us will ever forget, but I can imagine that this will eventually fade into the background for both of us. I can already feel it fading into the background for me (the "images" are less obtrusive, etc).

My goal is to have a good marriage with my wife again. I basically come here to find out if that's possible given my situation. I understand that I have to make the final decision, and I think I've done that (I really believe our marriage can work again), but I want to find out if there are things that I just can't possibly understand yet.

To answer your questions, I probably won't forget, and she probably won't forget either. I really think that it can fade into the background of a good relationship though...

IP705...

Yes, I DO think that you should contact OMW...She could be your greatest ally in making sure this affair remains dead...For sure contact her...I am curious, how is it that you know "100%" that she knows? Please tell me you aren't relying on the word of OM or your WW...

Can you afford to call Steve Harley IP705? It sounds to me like you would benefit GREATLY from the advice of a professional...He would help you with a specific plan for your situation...Click on the Coaching Center link above for info...The Harleys are far different from typical counselors...They will give you a plan of ACTION and are VERY pro-marriage.

Also, have you read the book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley? If not, please do so A.S.A.P...

Lastly, are you and your wife Christians, IP705? If so, I offer you this: "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." —Matthew 19:26

Mrs. W

I will contact her soon in that case. Obviously I'd love to have the affair remain dead .

I know that she knows 100% based on my snooping. I'm a lot better at snooping than WW thinks, which works to my advantage. There were conversations between OM and WW soon after D-day that I was aware of that my WW still doesn't know I know about.


I'm seeing a counselor by myself, and he's pro-marriage, so I'm getting help with laying out plans. There's nothing better though than hearing experiences from people who have been there, which is why I'm here.

IP705, why not call OMW today?

Mrs. W

IP705,

Although this thread has evolved from its original premise ... when dealing with A's, you just can't escape the subject of the title you gave this thread.

For a BH dealing with the fallout from his WW's A ... "DECEPTION" will be one of your biggest obstacles, from both your WW and yourSELF. Please don't underestimate your power to deceive yourself, because you know you better than anyone, including your own weaknesses, which your mind will use against you as a self-protection mechanism to minimize the pain.

Consider this before committing to any particular course of action.

@ Mrs. W: Just called OMW, no answer. Will try back in an hour.


The reality of this situation is that it's really hard to figure out what's true. The main thing that I was worried about when I wrote about "deceiving ourselves" as the title was that the phenomenon of "recovery" may be an ugly thing for the BS, but MB may be putting a positive spin on it to make we BS's feel better.

For example, what MB phrases as "coming out of the fog" may just mean that WW is entering a new fog (caused by the BS). You always hear people on MB talk about how as soon as their WS came out of the fog, they started looking back on the A as foolish and stupid. Are those feelings genuine, or is the WS just rewriting history again, only this time from a perspective that we BS's are more happy with?

Whether conscious or unconscious, the Dr. Harley may be putting a slant on what it means to "come out of the fog" by phrasing it in the way he does. The way it is phrased DOES seem to make me (and other BS's) feel better, but is it accurate?

I'm coming back to your original question. IMHO, the answer is no. Your question seems to imply that the "rewrite" is a conscious decision. IMHO, it is not. It is the result of considerable cognitive biases in the WS's intrepretations of reality and decision making. I do not think of the "fog" as a state of mind or a condition, but merely a simplified way to convey the myriad cognitive biases that are present with WS's. Below are just some of the WS's biases.

Bandwagon effect — the tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same. Related to groupthink and herd behaviour.

Confirmation bias — the tendency to search for or interpret information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions.

Hyperbolic discounting — the tendency for people to have a stronger preference for more immediate payoffs relative to later payoffs, where the tendency increases the closer to the present both payoffs are.

Irrational escalation — the tendency to make irrational decisions based upon rational decisions in the past or to justify actions already taken.

Omission bias — the tendency to judge harmful actions as worse, or less moral, than equally harmful omissions (inactions).

Selective perception — the tendency for expectations to affect perception.

Observer-expectancy effect — when a researcher expects a given result and therefore unconsciously manipulates an experiment or misinterprets data in order to find it.

Ostrich effect — ignoring an obvious (negative) situation.

Selection bias — a distortion of evidence or data that arises from the way that the data are collected.

Subjective validation — perception that something is true if a subject's belief demands it to be true.

False consensus effect — the tendency for people to overestimate the degree to which others agree with them.

Fundamental attribution error — the tendency for people to over-emphasize personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing the role and power of situational influences on the same behavior.

Halo effect — the tendency for a person's positive or negative traits to "spill over" from one area of their personality to another in others' perceptions of them.

Illusory superiority — perceiving oneself as having desirable qualities to a greater degree than other people.

Consistency bias — incorrectly remembering one's past attitudes and behaviour as resembling present attitudes and behaviour.

Egocentric bias — recalling the past in a self-serving manner, e.g. remembering one's exam grades as being better than they were, or remembering a caught fish as being bigger than it was

These biases form together to create an "image" of OP that can not be "competed" against. Its that "image" they are in love with, not the OP.

Recovery is not the WS continuing with these biases, but just placing the BS on the advantageous side of the bias. Recovery is about the WS realizing the bias and eliminating them. So it's not "reverse fog", but eliminating the "fog".

That said, there are also a boatload of cognitive biases that usually impact a BH.

IP705...

Take my advice, for what ever it's worth, as I was dressed down pretty severely on this forum... but there is a quote from Aristotle that I find particularly useful.

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"

This can apply to both you and your wife. As you see your wife make more affirming statements about your marriage... that is her reality. If you see her backtracking... then that is her reality. Trust your instincts on this one.

As for you, I was in your place. I was jealous of some of my wife's prior experiences. There is no way I can experience those things myself. It was an issue with me early on. As my marriage went on, we developed many joint experiences that minimized my feeling that she "somehow had more fun than I did." And before I get jumped on... this was pre-separation, pre-wife's affair and during the time of the failing marriage. Point is, we still had some grand times and grand experiences together. And one more thing... I was minimizing the unique experiences I had before our marriage. I wanted both what was mine and what was hers. Pretty selfish on my part.

OK, now where Aristotles quote comes in for you. As long as it is your habit to dwell on the enequities of the "fun sexual experiences" your wife had and you didn't, you'll always be slave to that idea. If you don't want to be a slave, you need to focus on what's great about yourself and the fun that you created (although maybe not sexual.) If you don't get past these thoughts in your own mind, you'll get to be as old as I am and still harbor those nasty feelings.

I see it as an example of what not to do.

There was never NC and he got what he signed up for.

If the affair has lasted longer than a few weeks and is an entangled affair, remorse is rare at first.


Well - I think some of the stories come from people who's spouses had very brief affairs and were not in entangled affairs. They seem to not be able to see the difference between the two. I would say your experience is typical given your circumstances.

I think it was probably at least 6 months into recovery before I knew my wife really "got it"

This is very worrying although she is in withdrawal........ Her efforts to engage actively in recovery need to step up.

I agree she won't forget - I agree with MyRev. But what is the conflicting message???

No further comment necessary.

deleted

Ah MyRev...Give BK some quarter here...I don't think he meant that she will forget OM completely, but rather the same "fondness" for him will not remain if both partners eventually get onboard and work a marital recovery program together as a team...The team part is CRITICAL...I know you see that and have that with Fogfree, MyRev...

IP705's wife is currently in withdrawal...It will take some time for her to join the team, but if she does, there is no reason that this marriage can't be saved...

Mrs. W

(((((Aphelion)))))

Your wife never got onboard, and that is not your fault (I know you know)...I am truly sorry for what you have endured...

Mrs. W

No Worries ... just trying to level an uneven playing field by pointing out some of the potholes for others to avoid.

I'm pretty certain that neither of us will ever forget, but I think that will be a positive thing down the road. Sometimes it hurts me that my wife will have sexual memories other than me, but I think the biggest reason for that is right now she looks back on them with fondness. Day by day I can see her attitude changing, and her perspective on those experiences is moving from fondness to regret/guilt.

Probably the hardest thing to do in Plan A is to get past your expectations (in my experience anyway). My days are much easier now because I expect to be treated like [censored], and anything other than that is like a reward. Day by day I get more and more rewards. The ultimate reward will be complete remorse. To be honest, I don't care that she had other sexual experiences, what I care about is that she doesn't feel remorse. As long as there is no remorse, then I can't possibly live up to her expectations sexually... as obviously affair sex is way better than marriage sex while you're still in the fog. So it hurts for now, but the fog is lifting. There are signs of remorse creeping in.

Also, we're not having sex right now anyway (nor have we since D-day), so no worries...

So you're 25 years old ... no kids ... relatively short M ... no sex since before 10-31-08 ... and minimal (if any) remorse for her actions???



IP705, I'd like for you to go back and re-read my post to you about DECEPTION ... including WW deception and self-deception ... it is pretty obvious you are dealing with BOTH!!!

Please consider the possibility.

Don't agree with you that there is a reverse fog. Waywards can re-write history all they want, it doesn't mean it's true.



Yes it would be true with the exception of "I don't know why I did it." Your WW did it because she wanted to. Your WW did not love OP. Lust is not love. Helping someone self destruct is not love. Throwing all respect, for themselves and others, out the door is not love. I suppose many may have their own definitions of what love is but nothing APs do screams "love" to me in any way, shape, or form. As are periods of insanity to a degree. Unless you are dealing with a true narcissist, the APs have essentially lost their minds because they are not living in reality. OM is a slimey POSs. All APs are slimey POSs. The very nature of As makes this true.