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#2196527 01/20/09 03:33 PM
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Just wondering if anybody had sources for the numbers quoted about A? Scientific journals would be best. Some of the numbers on these boards sound too good to be true IMO.

Or maybe even a thread that could recap the most common stats.



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What numbers are you talking about? That would help.

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Originally Posted by turtlehead
What numbers are you talking about? That would help.

Like what % of M actually recover or get divorced? Right after D-day, 1 year and maybe 5 years.

Also the 98% of A break up after 6 months or so seems a bit high.



BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
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NC #1 - 9/15/2008
Broken a couple of times
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UP, try emailing Dr. Harley or doing a google search on the web.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I agree that 98% of affairs ending within 6 months sounds high but that's not a figure I recall reading or hearing. A google search on "infidelity statistics" or "affair statistics" is a good start.

From http://www.womansavers.com/infidelity-statistics.asp :

Affairs affect one of every 2.7 couples, according to counselor Janis Abrahms Spring, author of "After the Affair," as reported by the Washington Post on March 30, 1999. Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.

A lesser known fact is that those who divorce rarely marry the person with whom they are having the affair. For example, Dr. Jan Halper’s study of successful men (executives, entrepreneurs, professionals) found that very few men who have affairs divorce their wife and marry their lovers. Only 3 percent of the 4,100 successful men surveyed eventually married their lovers.

Frank Pittman has found that the divorce rate among those who married their lovers was 75 percent. The reasons for the high divorce rate include: intervention of reality, guilt, expectations, a general distrust of marriage, and a distrust of the affairee.

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Originally Posted by turtlehead
Affairs affect one of every 2.7 couples, according to counselor Janis Abrahms Spring, author of "After the Affair," as reported by the Washington Post on March 30, 1999. Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.

Sheesh, that can't be right!
10% (one day)
10% (> 1 day and < 1 month)
50% (> 1 month and < 1 year)

That only leaves 30%, and out of that 30% some of them have to last > 1 year but less than 2 years. No way 40% last more than 2 years. Somebody can't do math.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
UP, try emailing Dr. Harley or doing a google search on the web.

Your right. I was being a bit lazy. I just see a lot of statistics thrown around here and was interested where exactly these people are getting their numbers from. No offense to Dr. Harley but if he is going by just people he has counseled - then those numbers would be biased bc they would involved 1. a small sample set and 2. the results would be prejudiced bc he helped the couple.



BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
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UP, where did you get the idea Dr Harley is going by people he has counseled? I have never heard him say that. When that is the case, he cites it.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by Upside_Down
Your right. I was being a bit lazy. I just see a lot of statistics thrown around here and was interested where exactly these people are getting their numbers from. No offense to Dr. Harley but if he is going by just people he has counseled - then those numbers would be biased bc they would involved 1. a small sample set and 2. the results would be prejudiced bc he helped the couple.

With 35 years of clinical experience, I'm guessing Dr Harley has read a journal or 2. Maybe even attended a few seminars. We call this continuing professional development.


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Upside Down,

I don't know where the 98% break up of affairs within six months comes from. The stat most often quoted around here is Dr Harley's statement that most (about 95%) end within two years. There has been some question lately as to whether that is two years from the beginning of the affair or two years after discovery.

Frank Pittman already mentioned has stated that in his years counseling with couples on the verge of divorce that he cannot recall a case where reconciliation did not occur when there was not an affair going on during counseling. He also says that in the cases where it seemed there was no affair and the marriage failed after counseling it was later discovered that there was in fact an affair during that time.

Face to face interviews seem to indicate that between 4 and 5% (for women and men respectively) admit to having had at least one affair. But those numbers also turn out to be the same when people are asked about having an affair within the past 12 months.

The low number might be related to people not being willing to admit doing something wrong in a face to face interview since according to the same surveys 70-80% of people interviewed said that they thought adultery was wrong.

Those who deal with infidelity, some already mentioned and others, suggest that the real numbers are more like 40% of women and 60% of men have had at least one affair during their marriage. Many of these are never discovered and considering that many well known therapists advise against admitting to an affair the numbers might be closer to the truth.

Completely anonymous on-line results indicate that the 40 -60% numbers are more accurate. These surveys too are flawed in most cases as most were funded, sanctioned or conducted by magazines, mostly men's magazines and a few women's magazines, that also tend to run compatibility surveys, ongoing columns dedicated to describing your "best" affair of all time and things of that nature.

When you stop to think that most people do not even recognize an emotional affair as an affair at all the percentages could go very high in deed. We here at MB have seen first hand that an EA can be as damaging to a marriage as any physical affair. So to say that unless there was penetrative sex involved it doesn't count as an affair is misleading at best. Remember Bill Clinton? "I did not have sex with that woman..."

The fact is that not all affairs result in divorce though it can be said that most do. Since just over half of all marriages in America end in divorce the probability of remaining married to your first spouse are not quite as high as calling a coin flip on the first try.

I would say that most people who are involved in an affair as either the betrayer or the betrayed never make it to marriage builders and of those that do the rate for those who remain married is significantly less than the divorce stats in general. To say that all of these marriages are truly recovered is a stretch in my opinion.

Now the question comes up as to whether or not those who attempt to save their marriage by using Marriage Builders methods is higher than the general numbers for all marriages wracked by infidelity. Since the published failure rate in general for marital therapists is about 84%, I would suggest that MB stands a better than average rate of success.

But here's the thing to consider in that. Most people here are do-it-yourselfers when it comes to marital recovery. While there are some real counselors who have posted here over the time I have been here, their specialties are seldom marriage recovery after infidelity. Dr Harley says that for those who use his methods of recovery there is a 100% recovery rate. That sounds astounding, but it requires that BOTH the BS and the WS be on board, both counsel with the coaching center and both are willing to examine themselves and take extraordinary precautions going forward.

It also requires that both WS and BS commit to meeting each others ENs and doing away with love busters for the rest of the time they are married.

Published statistics for failure of second marriages according to the National Institutes of Mental Health are at about 75%, 50% higher than first marriages. National Institute of Health Statistics also has numbers on this if I recall correctly. I don't know if they keep statistics regarding what percentage of these second marriages began as an affair, but as already pointed out there are things about an affair that make for less than stable marriages.

These things can include:

* Guilt by one or both affair/marriage partners who some day do face the fact that they broke up a family and perhaps two families.
* A general mistrust of marriage.
* A mistrust of the affair/marriage partner based on experience.
* A sense of sadness over what was lost usually more pronounced for the one who gave up the most to continue the affair.
* A feeling of "Is that all there is?" related to having given up the bad/old marriage for the new only to discover that the new is not "better" at all.
* An inability to cut ties to the former spouse usually most often seen in cases where kids were part of the first marriage.
* The fact that an affair is a purely selfish act and while it can give you a lot of exciting times during the affair, selfishness is hardly the way to build a lasting marriage.

Percentages of third marriages are worse than for second marriages and by number 4 or 5 marriage is seemingly disposable.

Now consider the tendency in our society to shack up instead of getting married which shows a marked lack of the ability to commit and you can see that affairages are pretty much doomed from the start.

In order to recover a marriage, both BS and WS have to be committed to making the marriage better than it was before the affair. Though this commitment is usually slower to come by for the WS than the BS, it can sometimes be the other way around as evidenced here on these forums. But it is a requirement that both be fully committed and willing to do the work it takes to recover.

The biggest obstacle to recovery BTW is often the BS rather than the WS. It is harder to get over being betrayed than it is to forget about one's affair partner it seems. The WS must also find what it is that they are lacking, not from the marriage but within themselves that allowed them to make the decision to cheat. It might point to a character flaw or a lack of personal boundaries or even some weakness that they will have to be willing to protect in the future. Just like an alcoholic who heads down the road of recovery, a WS can never again allow the conditions that made the affair possible to exist.

I linked some sources for statistics and analysis of the same on another thread over the weekend. If you don't find it let me know but you can find a lot of information by using Google to look for infidelity or affair statistics. Most things you will find will not be the sources themselves but quotes of them, most often just like here without any citations given as to source. The problem with the sources themselves is that they are usually just raw numbers and can be very confusing and even misleading unless you are used to dealing with such things. Ever read somebody’s doctoral thesis? Exciting read those are...if your name is Einstein.

Mark

Note: The statements of the poster do not necessarily reflect the views of this website, it's founder or anyone associated with Marriage Builders in any way including most of the on-line community here after called the forums. Hey, you get what you pay for, right? crazy

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How are you doing with that 12 step program Mark?

rotflmao


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Originally Posted by bigkahuna
How are you doing with that 12 step program Mark?

rotflmao


beat me to a response. mark read it twice and thought I was reading a telco report/analysis.

Updside - hope that answers your question. Tough to get a true stat when the data points/interviewees are liars.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
UP, where did you get the idea Dr Harley is going by people he has counseled? I have never heard him say that. When that is the case, he cites it.

Then my mistake. I really wish the search function worked on this board. I need to add more 'watched' posts to my list. I come across so many interesting posts but then forget the details. I just assumed he was using his patient base for his numbers.



BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
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Quote
How are you doing with that 12 step program Mark?
Guess I fell off the wagon. crazy

I guess I'm just frustrated since I only get to make a few posts per day. I figure I need to make each one count...

Mark

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Originally Posted by bigkahuna
With 35 years of clinical experience, I'm guessing Dr Harley has read a journal or 2. Maybe even attended a few seminars. We call this continuing professional development.

Wasn't trying to insult Dr. Harely or insuite he isn't well versed in the field.
I have no doubt that his Journal of Marriage and Family is up to date. I just feel like sometimes numbers are dropped here more on anecdotal evidence rather then cold hard scientific facts.


BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
Broken a couple of times
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In recovery....but not easy
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Originally Posted by Mark1952
Upside Down,

I don't know where the 98% break up of affairs within six months comes from. The stat most often quoted around here is Dr Harley's statement that most (about 95%) end within two years. There has been some question lately as to whether that is two years from the beginning of the affair or two years after discovery.

Mark, as always thanks for the through reply. I may have been mistaken with 98% but I have seen a few people quote upwards of 90% - would be easy to verify if the search function worked. But even the 95% statement by Dr. Harley - where is that from? How many couples? Over what time period? Etc. I am not insinuating that Dr. Harley is lying just curious if that info has been published in a journal or something similar that goes through peer evaluation.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Mark1952
Frank Pittman already mentioned has stated that in his years counseling with couples on the verge of divorce that he cannot recall a case where reconciliation did not occur when there was not an affair going on during counseling. He also says that in the cases where it seemed there was no affair and the marriage failed after counseling it was later discovered that there was in fact an affair during that time.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here - most M that don't make it are because of an A? Again numbers would help.

Originally Posted by Mark1952
Face to face interviews seem to indicate that between 4 and 5% (for women and men respectively) admit to having had at least one affair. But those numbers also turn out to be the same when people are asked about having an affair within the past 12 months.

The low number might be related to people not being willing to admit doing something wrong in a face to face interview since according to the same surveys 70-80% of people interviewed said that they thought adultery was wrong.

Those who deal with infidelity, some already mentioned and others, suggest that the real numbers are more like 40% of women and 60% of men have had at least one affair during their marriage. Many of these are never discovered and considering that many well known therapists advise against admitting to an affair the numbers might be closer to the truth.

Completely anonymous on-line results indicate that the 40 -60% numbers are more accurate. These surveys too are flawed in most cases as most were funded, sanctioned or conducted by magazines, mostly men's magazines and a few women's magazines, that also tend to run compatibility surveys, ongoing columns dedicated to describing your "best" affair of all time and things of that nature.

I agree that face to face interviews are worthless. Not really even worth mentioning. People have a natural tendency to not want to make themselves look bad. Those M polls in those magazine are mostly skewed towards people more likely to have A in the first place. The 40% and 60% numbers are scary - it would mean that we all pretty much should know someone who has had an A. Kind of gloomy outlook on M.


Originally Posted by Mark1952
The fact is that not all affairs result in divorce though it can be said that most do. Since just over half of all marriages in America end in divorce the probability of remaining married to your first spouse are not quite as high as calling a coin flip on the first try.

I would say that most people who are involved in an affair as either the betrayer or the betrayed never make it to marriage builders and of those that do the rate for those who remain married is significantly less than the divorce stats in general. To say that all of these marriages are truly recovered is a stretch in my opinion.

This is interesting. This is where I would like to see some numbers. Like if 50% of all M end in D what % was the result of adultery? What is the % of M that attempt reconciliation after an A? 25%? What % truly succeed? 10% of that 25%?

Originally Posted by Mark1952
Now the question comes up as to whether or not those who attempt to save their marriage by using Marriage Builders methods is higher than the general numbers for all marriages wracked by infidelity. Since the published failure rate in general for marital therapists is about 84%, I would suggest that MB stands a better than average rate of success.

But here's the thing to consider in that. Most people here are do-it-yourselfers when it comes to marital recovery. While there are some real counselors who have posted here over the time I have been here, their specialties are seldom marriage recovery after infidelity. Dr Harley says that for those who use his methods of recovery there is a 100% recovery rate. That sounds astounding, but it requires that BOTH the BS and the WS be on board, both counsel with the coaching center and both are willing to examine themselves and take extraordinary precautions going forward.

It also requires that both WS and BS commit to meeting each others ENs and doing away with love busters for the rest of the time they are married.

I agree the people who come here probably experience a higher recovery rate because there an active participant in trying to resolve the A AND improve their M long term. Heck that's why I'm here and a thankful for this board. But a 100% recovery rate? I think there have been a few examples on here where a couple has tried and failed not for lack of effort but it just didn't work out. It does happen. Not everyone is destined to be together for life even if they meet each other's EN and are generally good people.

Originally Posted by Mark1952
Published statistics for failure of second marriages according to the National Institutes of Mental Health are at about 75%, 50% higher than first marriages. National Institute of Health Statistics also has numbers on this if I recall correctly. I don't know if they keep statistics regarding what percentage of these second marriages began as an affair, but as already pointed out there are things about an affair that make for less than stable marriages.

These things can include:

* Guilt by one or both affair/marriage partners who some day do face the fact that they broke up a family and perhaps two families.
* A general mistrust of marriage.
* A mistrust of the affair/marriage partner based on experience.
* A sense of sadness over what was lost usually more pronounced for the one who gave up the most to continue the affair.
* A feeling of "Is that all there is?" related to having given up the bad/old marriage for the new only to discover that the new is not "better" at all.
* An inability to cut ties to the former spouse usually most often seen in cases where kids were part of the first marriage.
* The fact that an affair is a purely selfish act and while it can give you a lot of exciting times during the affair, selfishness is hardly the way to build a lasting marriage.

Percentages of third marriages are worse than for second marriages and by number 4 or 5 marriage is seemingly disposable.

Now consider the tendency in our society to shack up instead of getting married which shows a marked lack of the ability to commit and you can see that affairages are pretty much doomed from the start.

I would agree with this point but as much as us BS would not want to believe it - I'm sure there are some M starting from A that do work out. What %? Again I think its' probably higher then the 2-5% number I have read on here.
Originally Posted by Mark1952
In order to recover a marriage, both BS and WS have to be committed to making the marriage better than it was before the affair. Though this commitment is usually slower to come by for the WS than the BS, it can sometimes be the other way around as evidenced here on these forums. But it is a requirement that both be fully committed and willing to do the work it takes to recover.

The biggest obstacle to recovery BTW is often the BS rather than the WS. It is harder to get over being betrayed than it is to forget about one's affair partner it seems. The WS must also find what it is that they are lacking, not from the marriage but within themselves that allowed them to make the decision to cheat. It might point to a character flaw or a lack of personal boundaries or even some weakness that they will have to be willing to protect in the future. Just like an alcoholic who heads down the road of recovery, a WS can never again allow the conditions that made the affair possible to exist.

I would agree with this. I think as a BS its really hard to accept that your WS is really committed to the M after not giving a da3m about it for so long. I myself have wavered from wanting to separate to working very hard on recovery over the past few months. It really is a roller coaster for both BH and WS.
Originally Posted by Mark1952
I linked some sources for statistics and analysis of the same on another thread over the weekend. If you don't find it let me know but you can find a lot of information by using Google to look for infidelity or affair statistics. Most things you will find will not be the sources themselves but quotes of them, most often just like here without any citations given as to source. The problem with the sources themselves is that they are usually just raw numbers and can be very confusing and even misleading unless you are used to dealing with such things. Ever read somebody’s doctoral thesis? Exciting read those are...if your name is Einstein.

Will check it out.



BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
Broken a couple of times
NC #2 - 11/8/2008 - Hopefully the last time
In recovery....but not easy

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