IP

As MyRev is saying, given your age and no kids, you should strongly consider just starting over. But if you want to try and recover, then okay, I won't say that again.

My second thought is that your original question is sort of trying to solve tommorrow's problems today. The "how she feels about OM", the how are you going to feel later, can be worked through later. (Not saying they are not a problem, just saying if six months from now, your WW has been the model FWW, and you still are bothered by those things, you can just tell her then, sorry, I can't get over it.)

Of more immediate concern, is the no remorse, not committed, no sex, no NC letter, just placating you, red flags. In my time here, at worst it meant NC was not in place, and at best, they are prepared for renewed contact.

It seems to get mixed up here, but IMHO, WD does not start when NC starts. WD starts when the WS decides they will no longer see OP. This can be a day after NC or months after NC. Doesn't sound like your WW has made that decision yet.

I use the term "managing" a lot. Unreptentent WS manage their BS's. WS's are very skilled at this, and often times BS's mistake them getting better at managing the BS as progress. I hope you aren't making this mistake.

My only strong, very strong, recommendation:

Do not have any children for at least five years!

Please.

I am strongly considering leaving my wife, but that's not what I want to do. My first goal is a recovered marriage, and for that reason I'm doing some Plan A to see if I can pull her out of withdrawal and give her a chance to show remorse and renewed commitment. I don't have a defined frame of time in my mind, but I know that time is running out for her to get back in the marriage.



1- There is some remorse, and it grows every day.
2- She claims to be committed, just not in the way I would like her to be committed.
3- "No sex" is no fun. I miss sex.
4- I haven't asked my wife to do a NC letter yet.

I'm sure you've seen BH's eat their words before, but WW is not in contact w/ OM. I'm confident enough in my snooping abilities to know that with relative certainty. There is no doubt that she wants to be in contact w/ him, but I don't know how this could be any different at our stage (isn't that what withdrawal is? she wants to be in contact but is not allowing herself to be).


I very well may be making this mistake. I've never been through this before, so who knows. Things seem to be genuinely getting better, and I can feel the fog lifting, but I can't say for sure that WW is not just managing me. What are some ways I can tell?

I don't know if I can promise 5 years, but there definitely won't be kids for at least a few years.

Raise the bar.

If she is "managing" you, then she will agree to do whatever you want so long as it does not conflict with her objectives. I'm speculating that her objective is to do just enough to keep you while she decides what she wants to do. So raise the minimum she must do.

A decent first step would be to insist on the NC letter.

The woman is in withdrawal - call it managing or whatever you want. Her reactions are textbook at this point.

I agree with Aphelion about no kids for 5 years.

Great point. Just to add. I was so desparate on the d-day that i did not want to loose her that I could have done anything she wanted.

It is so strange. I had lost my self-respect and said things I laugh at now. That is changing now. Slowly but steadily that is exactly what i am doing..Raising the bar. Setting boundaries. What will be tolerated and what will not be and so on.

About the sex part....talk to your wife and see if you can come to some kind of an agreement. You never know until you ask nicely.

Interesting (and uncomfortable) topic...happy to move it to a new thread to avoid the hijack.

I, and many other BS's here, have read "Private Lies" by Dr. Frank Pittman. In the book he discusses subsequent marriages and affair-marriages in detail. Why do they fail so often? And at much higher rates than 1st marriages?

Dr. Pittman writes that there seems to be something particularly damning of long-term "success" inherent in subsequent marriages that take place rapidly on the heels of a divorce. Obviously, this applies to the vast majority of affair-marriages since the affairees usually get married to each other "before the ink is even dry" on the divorce papers in most cases.

Of these, Dr. Pittman writes that "it is more likely in 5 years that the infidel will be back together with their original (betrayed) spouse than still married to the affair-partner." That seems to fly in the face of the notion that a LTA/VTLA becomes more "real" or stable than the original marriage.

Thoughts?

My WstbxH is in a LTA. I'll bite on this.

There is truth to this. I can track the A back about a year earlier than what WstbxH admitted to. However, it couldn't have gone on much longer than that as OW was caught with her first OM around then. However, a lot of the other sneaky stuff (stealing money from the joint account etc.), went on for much MUCH longer. So I'm left wondering how much of my marriage, if any, was real. It is entirely possible I have been decieved since my wedding day. I don't know of any other OW's but as WstbxH said (which I interpreted as fogspeak) - "I only meant to have an affair, I never meant to fall in love!" Perhaps he'd been cheating the whole time but this OW was "the one" for him.

The statistics on affairs show that few last. But some do, including a few notorious ones like Charles and Camilla. I don't know how real or stable even these are. Some may last because the AP's have burnt so many bridges they only have each other left. Some may last out of pride. And there probably are the odd cases where the marriage was a sham to begin with (Prince Charles comes to mind with this). Regardless of anecdotes, having an affair is not a highly successfuly path to marriage.

Statistics aside I think the answer most BSs are looking for is to the question "What is the probability that we will recover our marriage after an affair?"

Considering that the failure rate for first marriages is about 53%, the chances are certainly no better than about 0.47 but if you take into account all other reasons that first marriages end including abuse, abandonment, etc, the odds are not good.

Any specific plan to facilitate recovery has to deal with the fallout from the affair, the resentment that can remain for years in both the WS and the BS as well as dealing with long standing issues with the marriage including those things that set the stage for the affair. Almost any plan will have a better success rate than no plan at all.

What makes MB different than the other plans and certainly different than the methods employed by most marital therapists is that Dr Harley seeks to first and foremost restore the romantic love to the relationship as the primary goal of recovery. Communications problems can be dealt with if you are in love with each other and showing each other extraordinary care. Issues surrounding work related troubles can be dealt with if you are in love with each other...

Other problems can be dealt with if you are in love with each other, meeting each others ENs and have identified and are eliminating Love Busters, operating within the bounds of POJA and PORH because when you do these things you are dealing with the base problems within the marriage in a 100% committed to doing it relationship. POJA stops us from hurting each other further through thoughtlessness. PORH keeps us on track with being open to things that can lead to IB and also keeps each person accountable for their OWN changing emotional state by sharing not only the good but the bad of life together so that resentment cannot build up over time. UA keeps us connected by giving us time to pursue the meeting of each others ENs so that we can maintain full Love Banks and stay in love.

Langley does a good job of explaining how a woman ends up having an affair. Glass did a good job of identifying who is most at risk for an affair. Pittman is superb at explaining what happens in an affair and Grunzburg is pretty good at talking about what it takes to end an affair. Willard Harley Jr gives us a way to fall in love with our spouse all over again and remain in love with him/her so that we can work out the problems that result from an affair. That is why I ended up here instead of other forums.

It's why I'm still here.

Sorry BK. I tried to cut it down a bit... :crosseyedcrazy:

I read Pittman too. First book I read after D-Day 2. I liked it in many places better than SAA.

Both SAA and Pitman, and to a lesser extent Carder in Torn Asunder, are talking about their experiences with short or otherwise garden variety adultery. They are definitely not citing any confirmed results for LTAs and VLTAs.

The adulterers in an LTA eventually and actually become what they are doing. They do it for so long and it becomes such second nature to them they become People of The Lie, right out of Peck’s book.

There are so few documented LTAs and VLTAs the statistics are not significant, as near as I can tell. But I do have anecdotal evidence that they almost never work out if the victimized marriages are dissolved. The old saying, “the affair needs the marriage” seems truer for LTAs than for anything.

But in the minds of the adulterers the LTA becomes what really they live for. It is the reality.

Like the quote at the end of "They Might Be Giants"

George C Scott's character was nuts, and drove his psychiatrist nuts along with him till she believed and could see his imaginary Moriarty coming on a horse at the end of the film.

VLTAs - at least my W's - are like the Burstyn/Alda film "Same Time Next Year", in that they thrive on the sheer infrequency of the contact, and the "knowledge" (by long self-deception mistaken for experience) that the marriage has been there for so long that it will always be there, so long as they openly promise their affair partner that they never will leave their spouses.

Of course, Hollywood romanticism masking the truly unromantic filth of infidelity makes most movies dealing with affairs, or fantasies in general, not worth the time it takes 2 watch them.

Aphelion:

It seems to me that any WS who goes on to divorce and (usually immediate) re-marriage to the affair-partner (who is/was often married themselves) is by definition involved in a LTA/VLTA. There are several BS's here, myself included, who have found themselves in this predicament with their WS/xWS.

Pittman list 4 types of infidelity and notes that "accidental infidelity" (ONS, drunk weekenders, "Fatal Attraction", etc.) rarely lead to emotional connection and therefore divorce. Philandering often does end marriages and probably should since these affairees (overwhelmingly male) are not mentally/ethically suitable marriage-material persons anyway. What Pittman terms "marital arrangements" (open marriages, mutual "look the other way" stuff, etc.) can exist as stable marriages for a long time...if the spouses are OK with living that way. The vast majority of infidelity we are discussing here are "romantic affairs"...where one spouse "falls in love" with someone else and threatens/destroys the marriage because they believe thay have fallen out of love with their BS and found their "true soulmate" in the OP.

I agree that the WS involved in a (romantic) LTA re-defines their "reality" ("I'm in a new life now..." -- my xWW). But it doesn't seem any more "real" or worthy than than their original marriage as the relationships fail at an astronomical rate (>90% of affair-marriages do not survive "until death do us part"). The reasons why seem pretty obvious to me. These affairs start from a position of need and fantasy; they usually involve OP who are vastly incompatible with the WS and people the WS would NEVER have considered to be suitable relationship potential under "normal" (i.e. emotionally healthy, single, intact boundaries and discernment) circumstances. Obviously, massive betrayal, buried guilt, scapegoating, and deceit permeate these relationships...including between the affair-partners themselves.

Personally, I highly doubt my xWW's affair-marriage will make it even 5 years. Knowing what I know about the OM's history and behavior (this is his 4th marriage, he's cheated on all 3 prior ones and abandoned 2 of 3 kids) and my xWW's discontents and expressions to me of regret for being "so hard-headed", this seems like a very safe assumption even given the LTA-nature of it. I would guess it is primarily stubborness, pride, and past shame that motivate her to continue hanging onto something she must know by know was never what she would have chosen if she had been single and rational when it started...

You may be right, but like I posted, IMHO, this board is at times too quick to label a WS as being in withdrawal. Unlike actual chemical addicitions, I do not think withdrawal starts the day NC starts. It starts when the WS actually accepts they are not going to see OP again.

This is why I call it "managing". While they are having this internal debate of whether they will resume contact, or if they know they are going to, but are just waiting for things to "die down", they manage the BS.

I only make the distinction because I hate to see people mistake their WW's resuming contact as coming out of withdrawal. It looks much the same to me.

Now, if IP had a key logger going, a DVR here or there, got the NC letter, etc., I'd be more inclined to believe it's just withdrawal. The good (or bad, I guess) is they seldom can keep renewed contact hidden for long. It's a lot harder to fool you when you are paying attention.

Well in my experience, resuming contact and coming out of withdrawal look totally different.

I've never been through this sort of thing before, so I have no idea whether she's in withdrawal or not. One thing I can say for sure is that she's "withdrawn" from me. She's claims that she's afraid to open up to me, she's still in love with the OM, and she still says all the textbook withdrawal things like, "I wanted to leave you a long time before I met the OM," and "I need to see more change in you before I can recommit to our M," etc.

This whole situation is incredibly confusing, because she's doing all the right things, she's just doing them in a 1/2-a$$ way. She's doing just enough to be able to tell me that she's trying. Here are some examples:

NC: If you were to ask her, "Are you committed to NC," she would say, "Yes" right away. But if you ask her, "Well what would you do if OM called you today?" she says, "I hope I wouldn't talk to him, but I can't say for sure". So she says she's committed, but to me, it doesn't feel like commitment.

Remorse: She says she's sorry for the A, and sorry that she hurt me. But when I asked her if she was sorry that her relationship with OM became romantic (i.e. not just friendship), she said no. So basically she's sorry for all the pain she caused, but not sorry for what she actually did.

Commitment to M: She claims that she is afraid to commit to the M because of my issues. She says I'm controlling, and that I don't listen to her feelings in conversation (DJs is one of my biggest problems, it's not easy for me to overcome). For about 2.5 months now, I've been working desperately to fix my issues and Plan A. I think in general I have done Plan A really well, but every once in a while (about 1 day per week, sometimes 2) we get into serious discussions and they just don't go very well. We disagree a lot and she gets really stressed out. Every time that happens I get the feeling Plan A resets. The discussions usually happen because I see encouraging signs from my time in Plan A that makes me think she may be making progress w/ her feelings for me and for OM. So I ask about it (usually w/ high expectations, which I know is stupid), and she says she's exactly where she started (in love w/ OM, no feelings for me, etc).

OM: She claims she's still in love w/ him. She says it's getting easier to be w/out him just because she's getting used to not seeing him, but that her feelings aren't changing.

So that's where we are from my perspective. Here's where I am:

I'm trying to do Plan A, fix all my problems. I'm trying to be a good husband and a fun person to be around. Honestly after all this time, I'm really discouraged that there is no change. I don't always have success being a fun person to be around, because I'm sad (obviously), and it's not easy to overcome. So usually I backslide into serious conversations that she doesn't want to have. I always stay calm, but I still have a problem w/ DJs that I'm trying to work on. I'm just getting really discouraged.

Mrs. W and I went through a period of time where the affair was over but she just couldn't figure out how she could fall in love with me again. The rationalizations and justifications she had built up in her mind to be able to do what she did just needed time to clear. I think the best thing to do is not force deep conversations (even though I really really wanted them). The answers and conversations were typically hurtful when they did occur so why bother. Instead I'd just try to listen and let it all bounce off me (a kind of I'm rubber you're glue situation). In time her "feelings" will follow her actions so focus on her actions as those are within your control to an extent. Meaning...spending time together means her "action" is being with you. Try to have fun together without being so heavy. Like I said...the conversations aren't going to produce what you want to hear anyway so why bother. Besides...waywards tend to think they are so "cool". It's quite humorous when you really think about it but going along with it in early recovery may behoove you...participate in her coolness and YOU are giving her some of that "new relationship" drug she craves.

I suggest trying to go out to loud places or movies...places where you really can't have a serious conversation anyway. Mrs. W and I went clubbing a few times, went to an old favorite Irish sing-along type pub that we went to in our 20's a few times, we went to Cedar Pointe Amusement park, as well as movies and louder restaurants. If you guys used to party...then party it up.

There is also a "coolness" factor you have to play here. You can't allow yourself to be chasing her around trying to "talk" all the time nor should she see you moping. Putting a whistle in your walk exudes an air of confidence and that confidence is what attracted her to you in the first place. I'd go as far as cutting off the "deep" conversations at times by saying "we need a break...let's go do something fun" and do it. You are not her puppy dog....you are a capable, strong, virile man that she's a fool not to be in love with. Part of your Plan A includes always trying to look and SMELL your best. You should have new clothes and take pride in your appearance. It will help YOU feel better AND attract her. Remember...she's just "acting" cool when she's really not, whereas NOTHING is actually cooler than a man fighting for his wife and family.

Mr. Wondering

Whaen does an A turn into a LTA or VLTA? What is the timeline for that?

I don't know. To me though it would be when an affair hits the one year mark. Affair Anniversary.

Something that has an annual anniversary qualifies as a long term event.

I disagree. Most affairs end anywhere between 6 months and 2 years. So I'd say anything over 2 years almost qualifies as a LTA.

I totally agree with MrW.

IP - you are describing withdrawal to a "T"