I didn't want him to vacuum the floors. I didn't want him to shampoo the floors, which is what he is doing now. I didn't want him to scream at me, and cuss me out about D18 and all the stuff she does wrong in his eyes. But that's what he's doing. After he threw a bunch of stuff across the room and screamed about how he has to stop doing 'real work, work that makes money for the family just so I don't get chewed out by you' and I went outside crying, and he follows me outside and screams some more...THEN he said he was planning to work on the house all along. Uhuh. But that he's living with a couple selfish spoiled women who won't even help him move the furniture so he can shampoo.

I give up. I'm gonna do my time, pay off my bills, and leave.

Hugs Cat. I think we are married to the same guy. I've seen this movie so many times. And then, when *he* decides it's ok to not be angry anymore, I darned well be right there along with him or I'm the bad guy who can't let it go.

But from reading this thread, I think you did everything right. You told him how you felt. You can't control his AO. All you can do is remove yourself from the situation--and it sounds like you did that.

Do you feel like you live inside a pressure cooker too?

Cat, I'm sorry this is what it deteriorated into today. Progess, not perfection, right? Is this an opportunity to try your hand with boundaries? How can you be kind to yourself through this? Have I ever suggested to you Love Without Hurt by Steven Stosny? It used to be called You Don't Have to Take It Anymore, if you're looking in the library. He has a method to help you build yourself back up after a drop in core value.

(((Cat)))

*hugs*

I'm sorry if I pushed too hard.


Does this sound the way I think it sounds? *hugs* I hate to see you so defeated.

In your own words to others:

Do you hear the one true answer yet? It's communicate.

Safely. Honestly. Without subterfuge, guilting, insinuation, pouting, recrimination. With true hearing, compassion, empathy, questioning, wanting to understand him.

Just like you, your H is so very starved for affection and caring that if you throw him a scrap he won't know what to do - will think it's a trick. That's where you have to start being honest with him.

I see someone so full of her own sense of injustice that she's unwilling to see any other options. In other words, she is her own worst enemy.

These two people are engaged in a battle, plain and simple. Think of the movie The War of the Roses. They are both so sick of each other that neither is willing to budge an inch, convinced they are completely right and their spouse is completely wrong.

So who wins in this situation?

Nobody!

He's doing this because you allow him to have control over your emotions. If you were more sure of yourself, more willing to take charge of your life, his refusal would lead to you telling him directly that you feel insulted, unloved, and disregarded by his lack of taking your request seriously. And then you would move on.

The more truths in your marriage the healthier it will be. In fact, I think a healthy marriage would have both partners letting the other know everything he/she is doing (unless one is going to get a super present for the other!); it's those half-truths AND omissions that get people started on the path to an affair or divorce. Snowball.

Several people have suggested going to the Harleys, yet you have steadfastly refused to consider it, with a variety of reasons why not.

So tell me, where is there supposed to be ANY improvement in their marriage? Or is being right more important than saving the marriage?

What you're hearing today is that the 99 people (us) are telling you that the view you have today about your situation is not the ONLY view. If you are willing to acknowledge that, that there are other solutions that can help your marriage, then you are on your way to a better life. But if you maintain that only if you get what YOU want right now will you be happy...it's insanity for everyone involved!

You're the one here, so only you can take steps to change the dance you're in. If he sees change in you, starts feeling less under attack, he too may soften his stance. I'm sure he doesn't want to be married to someone who hates him. But he doesn't understand what's going on.

You are both so angry at each other you can't see anything but your rage. How will you ever reach anything? But like I said, you are the one here. So you have two choices. Learn how to fix a marriage, or walk away from it (and risk encountering the same thing in your next marriage).

You say you don't tell him because you don't want to evoke an AO from him. But if you were ok with yourself, his AOs wouldn't be affecting you so much that you avoid provoking them. That is on the path to becoming a verbally abused wife, if you let your fear of his outbursts dictate what you do. A healthy person would tell him how you feel, and if he tries to blame you or shout you into submission, you'd put your hand up and say "Enough! I don't deserve to be talked to like this, so I'm leaving. When you can handle a rational, helpful discussion, we can talk more." And then you leave the room.

Do you see how you are letting him control you and the situation? It is your fear of whatever, and your desire to avoid the confrontation that is dictating the life you're living. You have all the control in your own hands. If he's going to act like a child and throw tantrums when his integrity is questioned, then you give him the appropriate consequences for it - take yourself out of the equation. That is taking back your own control.

The benefit to that is that it shows HIM that you respect yourself. So somewhere along the way, he'll get the message that since YOU respect yourself, HE will have to as well, or he will no longer get to keep playing the game.

What he does hurts you because you let it hurt you.

Are you starting to get the sense now that everyone posting to you has the feeling that you are part of your problem, that your rationalization of being the victim is falling short? Are you willing to be honest with yourself and consider this? Or do you want to be 'right' - and lose your marriage?

I think you are getting closer with the O&H, but are not quite there yet.

Step 1: You fume because he won't help

Step 2: You fume because he won't help, and you tell him afterward that you wanted him to help

Step 3: You tell him in advance you want help, and if he doesn't help, feel free to fume

In your example, did you ever tell DH that you wanted to work on the front yard? You assumed he wanted help on the back yard.

How about saying something before breakfast: "DH, I am going to work in the front yard today. Do you think you could help me move the bushes (or whatever you need help with) later this morning?

or the example with the flyer:
"DH, I am not sure if it is worth the hours to reformat that for Salesguy. He may not realize the effort it would take and you might want to tell him to do it himself if he feels that strongly. But either way, we need to clean the house today and would you be willing to vacuum the floors?"

I think the thing is to make some plans, ASK for input/help, but continue your own thing if he does not want to get involved.

"Oh, you need help in the forest? I was going to work on the front yard today. Why don't you help me with that and we can finish it up and then later this afternoon or tomorrow we can work on the forest."

This way you make sure he does his stuff for you first, and then you follow through for him.

WBH, I am still having a hard time relating. I've never gotten up and said to myself, we need to do the floors today. Maybe that's just not my strong point. But sometimes something does bother me, and I want to get it done, so I say, H, I've been thinking about planting a palm to replace the one that fell in the hurricane. I was thinking about picking one up and planting it today, how would you feel about that? Would you to come pick it out with me? I was thinking about calling my dad to ask him what kind of palm to get, how would you feel about that?

It might be a good day for it, or maybe I forgot something we had to do today, and H reminds me. Or maybe he feels we don't have enough information to make a good decision, and we figure out what more information we would want. Or maybe he likes not having another tree there, it's not a big deal to me. But usually he says he needs to think about it, and then in half an hour, or the next day, says that's fine.

But my confusion is, if it's not a pipe leak or something like that, why does it have to be, Gosh darnit we're doing this today, or I'm going to be fuming! I don't ask to argue, because everyone has what is meaningful to them, but I'm trying to understand why this is meaningful.

Also, cat, you all are going to be moving anyway, right? How would you feel about putting the house up for sale now? A 5000 sq ft. home would be a mission for any family to tackle, right? Maybe it would be WAY easier with a small place?

See, the problem with all y'all's responses is that in your situations, you guys actually talk to each other. We don't. H decides what he wants to do, does NOT say it out loud but goes and starts it. If I start doing something else, he comes looking for me and gripes about having to do everything himself. I cave, and go help him. Or I don't cave, and we have a day like yesterday. You assume that if I would just find the right way to say what I want, he'll go, oh, gee, I'm sorry, I've been ignoring you. What really happens is he gets defensive if I make even a squeak that I'm not crazy about everything he does, and he turns it all around on me. Or now, me AND daughter.

For the first 10 years of marriage, I went along and things were fine. Maybe because I didn't realize at the time I'd be stuck doing this for another 20 years, plus.

On the other hand, because of his mom issues and OCPD, if I tell him first that I would like to do this or that, and if I dare mention that I would like help, we have a day like yesterday.

As long as he is being cared for and done for, we are fine. Things have been fine for us the last few months because I have been bending over backwards to meet his ENs and not LB. So basically he's being treated like the king he wants to be treated like.

So here I come yesterday and point out that life isn't all rosy on MY side, because I'm actually wanting something from him. And guess what? We get the old H back.

So I realized that nothing has really changed. Except I kissed a$$ for a year, got relative peace, at my expense, and nothing changed.

So I give up. If I could afford it, if I had decent credit, I'd be making plans to move out this summer. But I can't and don't.

So I'll keep on til I can, and then maybe when I'm gone he'll actually believe me when I tell him that I would love it if he would go to IC with me. And he'll finally listen.

fyi, ears, the reason I DO get up and think about what I want to accomplish is that nothing DOES get accomplished if I don't do it. I have gone years accomplishing nothing because I decided I'd wait for him to decide to do something, until I can't stand it and start doing it myself again. You guys keep assuming we have a normal family, and we don't. So I appreciate all the logical ways to fix things, but I think if I were to have any hope of fixing anything, my best bet would be to start living over at the OCPD website for advice.

(((Cat)))

Cat, is OCPD Obessive Compulsive Personality Disorder? How did you arrive at that diagnosis? Are there other underlying issues?

The way you described your situation was just eerily similar. I don't think my husband is OCPD; I think there are lots of other issues at play. But the bottom line is, as long as I'm bending over backwards to meet his ENs and not LB, things are fine. As soon as I make waves, things turn to shyte.

((((Cat)))))))

What I see is this flipped over. "I decide what I want us to do and do not say it out loud and I go and start it." I believe H comes and looking for you and gripes about having to do everything himself. And I believe you betray yourself each time you do not listen and repeat what he says, without caving.

Confirm for him what you hear, "I hear you as emotionally blackmailing me right now. I didn't tell you what I wanted to accomplish today, nor did I ask you what you wanted to accomplish. I didn't ask you what excited you, what was weighing on you...and I know I didn't share what was in me with you."

I see you, Cat, as "I get defensive if he even makes a squeak about him not being crazy about everything I do. I turn it all around on him."

And Cat, I'm not assuming anything about your marriage. I see your patterns of "caving" instead of choosing. And you're choosing resentment and I know you know you are. It's seductive, old pattern and well-worn. Just as his patterns are.

When you changed yours...when you owned your assumptions (ignoring, manipulative, giving little credit and twice the blame, him voicing about HIM what YOU feel...not important, cared about, loved or cherished...certainly not accepted), you saw how you gave yourself half that same experience. As if he's voicing what you will not.

You didn't meet his ENs and eliminate your LBs...you put your LBs on hold FOR him. When they are about you. When they are busting your love, robbing your own love bank.

When you eliminate them for YOU, then life changes. You'll stop assuming yourself, too.

And when he yells, you really will remove. You'll cherish, stay aware, value, make important, acting caringly about yourself...and you will feel loved and accepted. Each time you don't remove yourself (and I mean get in the car and leave, stating each step and why you're doing it along the way). Then you won't feel like giving up on yourself (which is what I really hear you doing, and calling it the marriage).

And you take DD with you when he yells. Stop everything. You accomplish (what you crave) your goal--to not punish yourself by staying present for abuse. You stop demeaning, harming yourself...so you can justify hating him.

Do you know what he dreams about his weekend being like? Where if you said, "We'll only work for 15 minutes at a time...how's that?" 15 minutes on, 1/2 off...sitting, being...listening...experiencing...

If you want to rid yourself of the earning love/punishment trap, you really gotta choose to honor your human being and not your human doing. Catch your assumptions, expectations...hear really where all this is coming from...fear of being seen as lazy, uncaring, slothful, trashy, slovenly...whatever it is in you that you fear...identify it. Find that one label which you fear the most...and examine it.

When you have unacceptable...it's about you, not him. You will not accept specific actions...choices. You will not yell...and you will not lie by omission. You will not assume is as deadly...you will not engage in a power struggle...you will act from love and respect.

Find those things you will do whether or not you choose to divorce. What you hold yourself to--and see if you aren't yelling at yourself inside; if you aren't reaching for unacceptable (doing it to DD TOO) which says you're not worth enforcing boundaries for, but she is...which isn't true or real...find your excuses, what you rage about inside, where you beat up on him in your thoughts and yourself...they are parallel. He's your living reflection...take a look at what you make reflect you...find that deep disrespect...and eliminate it for you.

That's not who you are.

Stop setting traps and tests...for you will feel like a failure...when he fails them. Acts of disrespect and fantasy, which is why they fail.

You believe others cannot relate, understand or have experienced what you have. That's what H thinks, too...that everyone else is alien to him but you...against him...that he's better than (constant comparison) and not connected to him.

We are, anyway. We know the despair when we hear said to us what is meant for themselves...and the only way we hear it is by listening to what we say about H which is meant for us.

Ownership is not blame. Look at what you chose not to do and say...find where part of your feeling of betrayal and distrust is coming from you not doing as you promised...and you're seeing it in him...

Reflections are tricky. Use them, anyway. You're worth it. Your silence betrays you...each time you do not share self, you deny self. You erase parts, pieces of self from existence. Each time you're telling self you're unwhole, unworthy, that you have holes. So self-image tries to fill them in by comparison (at least I don't do THAT), judgment (at least I didn't do THIS), when self is incomparable.

And each time you do this to you, you do it to him, too.

I don't think this is what you really want.

I believe in your solid heart, your amazing reliability, intense compassion and grace...but your extension of it and your experience of it...and your keen sense of perspective, acceptance and awareness.

And those same things are killing your marriage. Use those talents in the middle, not the extremes, the all or nothing...condition yourself to stop experiencing blame by inches...and miles...and say, "I am choosing to assume him right now and not know him. When I out-think him, I will rile at him out-thinking me. In reality, we both think and we both do."

Hold yourself to highest honesty. "I will not stay present when you yell. I love you and want to hear you. If you continue, I will remove myself for 20 mins." Then DO it, Cat. You can do this. Then return. Say the same thing if he continues or follows you, making it two hours. Then return.

Do not lie to yourself. You didn't kiss his tushie for a year. You chose to act from love...and you are lying to yourself right now by choosing to think you did so to get him to stop hurting you. That's pain in and of itself...before he speaks a word or takes an action. YOU doing that to YOU. Says you aren't lovable...constantly earning...only as good as your last deposit.

Which negates you are MADE of love. Slap yourself harder, Cat and maybe you'll stop hurting.

And know, if you slap yourself this hard, this often...you are whacking your loved ones, too. God's design cannot be a one-way street.


Why did you assume he didn't know? What if he is constantly, ceaselessly aware that he is a disappoint, an aggravation, an enemy and lousy partner 24/7? What if because you over do, there's no room for him, no need--he's a tool to be used, not a person? That he's only experiencing love as only as good as his last right action or word...so at any second, it's gone, completely...he's wiped out again...and nothing seems to please you, MAKE you love him...he's only tolerated, looked down upon, there to be the one thing that makes you feel good about yourself not being...

as bad as he is. A screw up.

You may feel ignored when he's off doing something to keep himself from lashing out...and you won't know...because neither of you know each other. Nor want to know. Too dangerous, risky...your assumptions ring in his head (and many aren't even yours) like a hum of degradation.

When are you guys going to really be good to one another? Human to human? You chose to "take it" for 10 years...and he's chosen to "take it" for 30. He feels a false sense of self because the more you DJ him, and he takes it, the less abandoned he feels. At least he's done that.

Good men don't leave. That's what DH told me. He heard that when he was young...and so no matter what I did, said...how much I crushed pain into him and told him he was doing it to me...he didn't leave.

Until he did.

You didn't make these last few months better...you both did. You chose a different perspective and perception...that was real. He chose different actions, too. Very contrary, both of you, to your patterns. So you had a different experience.

So if you're re-experiencing him as the same...then you KNOW you're reacting as you did before. Again, the earning...the last few months should have earned you better, eh? There's nothing to stop you from experiencing better today.

Just you. Your choices. Own your own betrayal...there is no caving...there is you choosing to do and not do and owning your reasons. You do NOT do anything you do not want to do...there's always a higher payoff if you believe you are...or were...find that payoff.

It might be false.

Then you'll slap yourself twice.

And hurt more.

Find your fallacies...instead of fault.

LA

OH, one of the posters here kept pushing me to visit the OCPF site, and it basically fits to a T. If I ask for something, he ignores me and does something else. Or he does something, but HIS way. I asked for help with the front yard once last year. He came out and dug one hole and then disappeared into the forest behind our house and worked there for 10 hours. That way, (I'm assuming, yes, since he won't tell me and I can't ask) he is not having to do what I want.

Put that together with my severe issues, and we just don't mesh.

I went for years thinking it was just mental abuse, because it fits that scenario so well. There's just a little more to my H than abuse, because he is not malevolent in the least. Like LA says, he hurts me, but he doesn't want to. And like LA says, the answer to BOTH situations is to stand up and tell the truth. And stop accepting it.

LA, thank you. As always, you are right. I was mistaking calm for progress. I thought I had found a way to achieve something, but I was kidding myself. I decided I wasn't afraid of him, because he hadn't been AOing for months. But then comes Sunday, and all my old crap comes out.

I don't know what I want to do any more. I'm so close to D18 leaving, I think it's changing my feelings, you know?

I'm just gonna sit on it for awhile, and fade back to my one step - trying to be honest. See what happens.

I know I'm gonna get h&ll from him either way, so I need to learn to be true to myself. You know what makes it so hard though? That in his mind, he is the victim. His life is so crappy (he almost got fired yesterday, actually), and he thinks it's my job to protect him. To help him. To support him.

I guess I'm back to step one.

I don't agree, Cat.

I see your issues as being best understood, each in the other.

I see why God brought you together...and why each of you have stayed. Made from love, acting love...I believe you have the very best shot as experiencing yourselves as love with each other.

Because of who you've been...hardest to accept...bears a ton of rejection...forms debt/gratitude lines...rejection/acceptance...find your poles you keeping coming 'round to...then tell him about them.

He has a love language of gifts...they are symbols...speak his language...give him gifts of time, affection...hold yourself to saying, "I feel really angry right now and I'm sorting out why...so I'm going to reach out and hold your hand because I know we're in this together."

Then do it.

And you will have different feelings as a result.

LA

I'll try. Later. I'm too hurt and discouraged right now.

But it's a good phrase, one that I might see myself saying.

That sounds like a great strategy. But one I'm too afraid to use. Though I'd make one change based on advice from you and others. I'd change "angry" to "hurt". Was it you that commented that men can deal with women feeling 'hurt' better than 'angry'?

Cat, I see you saying these things, too.

And your DD.

She can say "Stop yelling right now. I know you're better than that. I believe in you."

She's brave, too. She's chosen to act from bravery before. You'll know she's at her bravest when she says it to you.

LA

OH - I guess it was me that said that. I guess I should clarify.

While I don't think it's good in a healthy relationship to exchange the term 'angry' for 'hurt,' when indeed the more appropriate description of your feelings is anger versus hurt, in certain men and/or in certain phases of a troubled marriage, telling them that you're angry may not result in a productive response.

My husband has issues with accepting responsibility for his AOs. Telling him that I'm angry with him has never produced favorable results. It has almost always put him on the defense, making excuses for his behavior, usually blaming me or someone else for his AOs, and getting us no where.

Whereas...telling him that I'm hurt by something he said or did will at least result in silence and, I hope and choose to presume, inner reflection on his part. I do not expect an apology, but no response is better than one that pushes the blame away from the offender. Atleast that way I have some hope that he's thinking about what he said or did.

Cat, how are you doing? Has it calmed down at home? Do you feel comfortable, or on eggshells? What do you think about telling him how his AOs impact you? Or are you concerned that he would AO all over again if you told him that?

Was DD18 home? Has she mentioned this? For a while she was calling your H on the AO behavior, right?

She was home. Unfortunately, I went and unloaded on her, told her to go deal with her dad's issues with her so I didn't have to. That went nowhere. Except to make me ashamed.

I actually thought today about O&H, I was thinking of just walking up to him and saying 'are you happy in this marriage? Or are you as unhappy as I am?'

Pipe dreams.

At least OH told her H she wanted him out. I can't even do that.

What's funny is that we've now gone 5 or 6 days without SF. That's a record for him, unless he's on travel. He keeps trying, but between all the fuss and me being sick the past few days...oh well.