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Chewie #2199423 01/25/09 09:21 AM
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Chewie,

I'm a FWW and have been in your shoes. I know how hard it is to come here and read stuff you really do not want to hear, but NEED to hear.

I didn't feel an angry tone when I read through this thread, just people telling you like it is.

I want to share something with you that someone once shared with me.

Quote
I know only that anytime I'm disturbed by a post or thread, it's down to me to identify what's bugging me. Chances are high it's something *I* need to address in myself, whether it's re-addressing some issue or addressing an issue for the very first time.

I would also like to make a suggestion. When you read replies read them several times and take time to think about them, especially the ones that sting a bit. The ones that sting are the ones that are hitting on something you probably don't want to think about. Early on I use to have to walk away from my computer when things stung and tried reading again after I had a chance to cool down.

People want to help you, but you have to be open to accepting it.

You should also be counting your blessings you are still in the house. I ran your situation by my DH and he said if I did anything like you did I would be out the door.

You have used up more than your fair share of chances, it's time to make things right.

One last thing, it is your job to make your W feel 110% safe and secure. YOU have to carry the load from this point forward and help her heal.

LC






Chewie #2199433 01/25/09 09:44 AM
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Chewie,

The fault was in not having a boundary that says "NO contact with OW EVER again for ANY reason" rather than in email being to easy to use. The problem isn't that the <send> button can be hit without thinking but rather that you did not think before hitting the button.

I am assuming that this coworker, who clearly knows or at least knew, both you and OW does not know the OW was your affair partner. That means your LTA is still a secret and if so then you can count on NO one to help you remain accountable; the effort must be 100% yours to maintain NC with OW.

But really, it is 100% on you to do so since only you know what you are doing or thinking at every instant in your life.

And it is what you are thinking that will lead you to trouble, not merely what you are doing. I would argue that you DID in fact know what you were thinking and that you WERE thinking as you hit that <send> button. You were thinking all along you could get away with this...

Again, assuming coworker does not know the reality of the affair:

You THOUGHT you could avoid anyone else having to find out that you had the affair.
You THOUGHT you could send the pix to OW and your wife would never find out.
You THOUGHT that surely by now things had died down and it wouldn't matter so much.
You THOUGHT you could once more be a friend to OW and live civilly toward each other.

My guess is that you thought a lot of stuff before you hit <send>...

"I didn't think it would matter" is not a lack of thought; it is rather the same as saying "I THOUGHT it wouldn't matter."

In this instance you were thinking "I thought I could because..."

This is a boundary dispute Chewie. It has nothing to do with your wife's boundaries and everything to do with yours. It has to be YOU that keeps you in line.

Now I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here and believing that you made a mistake in judgment and not a willful act of betrayal. Don't disappoint me...

Mark

Chewie #2199436 01/25/09 09:51 AM
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Chewie,

I have one more thought

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What I did was stupid and callous. I know that. I have set us back a great deal, and my long suffering wife is paying the price for that. It may result in the end of my marriage, and if so the responsibility is all mine. Each member of my family will pay the price for my bad choices.

You will learn very quickly that a pity party does not fly very well around here. I know as a WS it is sometimes difficult to see the drama in the statements we post, but those of us who have BTDT can spot them a mile away. Yes it's your fault, own it, step up to the plate and fix it with out all the drama.

ETA: I'm not trying to be harsh, I simply wanted to point out something you may not be seeing.

LC

Last edited by lifeschoice; 01/25/09 10:38 AM. Reason: add a thought




Chewie #2199472 01/25/09 11:04 AM
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So I have no idea what I can say in response to any of these generally angry posts except thank you for responding.

I find it interesting that you called these ANGRY posts. They were blunt and truthful, but not angry. Mine had no emotions attached whatsoever. They may have felt angry because they may have hurt you, but the truth DOES hurt. Did they hit a nerve? Why?

I do not know your or your BW's full story but did you write an NC letter? Because if you did then what will the OW think when she gets this email? What would you think?

So you sent this email in secrecy, again why? If you thought it would not hurt your BW why didn't you just tell her? You knew.

Your first answer was...I wasn't thinking...I didn't know it would hurt her so badly...I was stupid. Do you see how those aren't REAL answers? So can you look back and follow your thought pattern and come up with an HONEST WHY? Only then will you be able to deal with the real issues that you still have.

As others have mentioned check out TST's EMs that he has put in place to protect his BW. Protecting your BW should be prioirty number one.



BW(me)
DDay EA 4/05
DDay PA 6/05
In recovery
MicheleG #2199474 01/25/09 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MicheleG
Quote
So I have no idea what I can say in response to any of these generally angry posts except thank you for responding.

I find it interesting that you called these ANGRY posts. They were blunt and truthful, but not angry. Mine had no emotions attached whatsoever.

Agreed.

Sometimes it takes someone rattling your cage to get you to wake up. That's what we're trying to do here - to wake you up.


Me(bw/fww) 39
recovering with amazing fwh/bh 36
DS 7
DS 4

His
EA Oct '07 - 7/2/08 (d-day)
NC 7/4/08

Hers
EA/RA 6/'09-3/'10
NC 3/17/10


Chewie #2199484 01/25/09 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Chewie
I understand that I have boundary issues. I thought I had developed some insight into them, but obviously not enough.
What was I thinking? I haven't figured that out yet.

Well, only you know what you were thinking, but we do know WHY it happened. This is not a "MISTAKE," it is a reflection of non-existent boundaries. It happened because you don't observe even minimal boundaries. And that did not just start with this email. It has been a recurrent theme in your marriage and obviously has never changed in all this time.

I have no doubt that Chrys would never know about this event if she had not caught it herself. That tells, given your lack of boundaries imposed on self, that there are probably things she hasn't been able to catch. I could be wrong about that, but one way to prove it is to offer to take a polygraph to put her mind at ease.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I agree with Michelle - you need to figure out the why. Otherwise you may make more stupid choices.

Everyone here sees why this would be hurtful to your wife, and even your family. But somehow that didn't occur to you.

I don't necessarily think that you did it to get back into contact with the OW, it could have just been your pride in your daughter, it could have been you are over the OW and so it didn't mean ANYTHING to you. But you have to realize that it did mean something to your wife.

As a man who wants to remain married, you need to slow down a little and get some extraordinary precautions going. These will guide you until you get a better grip on boundaries.

Chewie #2199488 01/25/09 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Chewie
I understand that I have boundary issues. I thought I had developed some insight into them, but obviously not enough.

"Developing insight" into boundaries is not the same as OBSERVING boundaries. I don't know what it means to "develop insight." crazy

When I am caught speeding it is meaningless for me to "develop insight" into the speed limits. What matters is that I OBSERVE the speed limit. Even when the cops are not watching.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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LOL, Mel, what a great example. Trying telling a cop that you are "developing insight" into the speed limit next time you get stopped. Or maybe explain that you are in the midst of figuring out why you are speeding......................

believer #2199495 01/25/09 11:49 AM
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Yeah. Try telling a cop that you "figured out you have more boundary issues that you thought originally" when you blew thru that red light..... wink

believer #2199501 01/25/09 12:01 PM
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Chevie, I agree with all the other posters.

In addition, your daughter is also your WIFE'S daughter. I don't know about her, but it would make me madder than all get-out to have my WH or FWH think it was OK to share ANYTHING about our children with the OW. It would especially make me angry to think the the OW might have have possession of a picture of my child/children. What if the OP were to see and recognize your DD out in public somewhere and try to strike up a "friendship"?

Our lives, marriage and children are none of the OP's durned business!

You need to block the OW's email addy on your work account, even if you have to go to IT for help in doing so.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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This may be wrong advice, the experts will help more here, but if it were me, I would have my wife contact the OW and get the pictures back from the HAG.

Why are you sending beautiful FAMILY pictures to a HAG who tries to ruin your FAMILY AND MARRIAGE? SHE IS A FAMILY WRECKER, YOU DO NOT SEND THE ESSENCE OF YOUR DAUGHTER TO HER!

And I would like to know FROM YOU RIGHT NOW how this HAG feels about you at this time:


1. Does the HAG want you back?

2. Does this HAG miss you?

3. Had the HAG moved on with another man?

4. Is this HAG waiting for you?

5. Is the HAG lonely without you?

6. Are you lying to your wife and still talking with the HAG?

7. Does the HAG want to see how you are doing?

8. Does this HAG still have feelings for you?


WE NEED TO KNOW THIS NOW.

Last edited by Stellakat; 01/25/09 12:15 PM.
Chewie #2199518 01/25/09 12:32 PM
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Chewie...

This could have been easily avoided if you were following Dr. Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement. Are you familiar with this?

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
The Policy of Joint Agreement

When in the state of Intimacy, both spouses want the other to be happy, and neither spouse wants to see the other hurt. In the state of Conflict, both spouses want to be happy and neither wants to see themselves hurt. Actually, both objectives are important, and that's why I created a negotiating rule to achieve those important objectives regardless of the state of mind spouses happen to be in. I call it the Policy of Joint Agreement -- it takes the best from the advice of both our Giver and our Taker.

The Policy of Joint Agreement also avoids the worst advice of our Giver and Taker. In the state of Intimacy, we are encouraged by our Giver to sacrifice our own happiness so that the other person can be happy. In the state of Conflict, we are encouraged by our Taker to let our spouses sacrifice so that we can be happy. Neither of these are worthy objectives because in both cases someone gets hurt.

In marriage, your interests and your spouses interests should be considered simultaneously. One of you should not suffer for the benefit of the other, even willingly, because when either of you suffer, one is gaining at the other's expense. If you both care about each other, you will not let the other suffer so that you can have what you want. When you are willing to let the other sacrifice for you, you are momentarily lapsing into a state of selfishness that must somehow be corrected before damage is done. The Policy of Joint Agreement provides that correction.

Before I tell you what the Policy of Joint Agreement is, I want to warn you that when you read it for the first time you may think I'm crazy to be suggesting such a rule. But the more you think about it, and the more you follow it in your marriage, the more you will recognize it as the breakthrough you need in the logjam that the Giver and Taker create in marriage.


The Policy of Joint Agreement


Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement
between you and your spouse
When you follow this policy, your Giver likes the part of it that requires your spouse to be in enthusiastic agreement about every decision you make, and your Taker likes the part that requires you to be in enthusiastic agreement. But the Giver will think that you're being selfish when you don't do whatever it takes to make your spouse happy, and your Taker will think you are just plain dumb to let your spouse's lack of "enthusiasm" prevent you from doing whatever makes you happy. Yet, if you follow this rule, it will prevent you from giving so much that it hurts you, or taking so much that you hurt your spouse. It forces you into the balance you need in marriage to create and sustain a compatible lifestyle and the feeling of love.

This rule teaches couples to become thoughtful and sensitive to each other's feelings when they don't feel like it. If both spouses follow this policy, they avoid all the Love Busters because they won't mutually agree to anything that hurts one of them. Demands, disrespect and anger are eliminated because even negotiating strategy must be mutually agreed to, and no one likes to be the recipient of abuse. Annoying behavior is eliminated because if one spouse finds any behavior or activity of the other annoying, according to the policy, it cannot be done. It even eliminates dishonesty, because a lie is certainly not something that you would agree to enthusiastically. It helps plug up the holes in the sieve of the Love Bank that cause most couples to drift into loveless incompatibility.

It also forces couples to negotiate fairly. The Policy itself prevents either spouse from making unilateral decisions about anything, so they must discuss every decision they make before action can be taken. Demands are out of the question, because they are not made to create enthusiastic agreement -- they are made to force one spouse to lose so that the other can gain. The same can be said for Disrespectful Judgments and Angry Outbursts. What role do any of those Love Busters have in a discussion where the goal is enthusiastic agreement? In their place, each spouse learns to make requests and express opinions, showing respect for the other spouse's opinions. The sheer folly and stupidity of demands, disrespect and anger are vividly demonstrated when a mutually enthusiastic agreement is your goal.

Successful negotiation in marriage creates a solution to every problem that benefits both spouses and doesn't hurt either of them. The Policy of Joint Agreement forces a couple to find those solutions. None of the states of mind in marriage encourage them to do that, so they need this rule to override their instincts that prevent successful negotiation.

The Policy of Joint Agreement encourages couples to consider each other's happiness as equally important. They are a team and both should try to help each other and avoid hurting each other. It just makes good sense. Why should one spouse consider their own interests so important that he or she can run roughshod over the interests of the other? It's a formula for marital disaster, and yet some of the most well-intentioned couples do it from their honeymoon on.

When I first see a couple in marital crisis, they are usually very incompatible. They are living their lives as if the other hardly exists -- making thoughtless decisions regularly because they don't care how the other feels. As a result, when I introduce The Policy of Joint Agreement, it seems almost impossible to follow. They have created a way of life that is based on so many inconsiderate habits that it seems the policy would force them to stop all their activity -- so much of what they do is thoughtless and insensitive.

But once they start to follow the policy, it becomes easier and easier to come to an agreement. As they throw out their thoughtless habits and activities one by one, they replace them with habits and activities that take each other's feelings into account. That's what compatibility is all about -- building a way of life that is comfortable for both spouses. When they create a lifestyle that they each enjoy and appreciate, they build compatibility into their marriages.

But the most powerful incentive for following this policy is that it helps sustain the feeling of love. Once the Policy of Joint Agreement is acted upon, it helps insulate a couple from many of the destructive forces that are ruining marriages. And it helps couples learn to meet each other's needs in ways that are mutually fulfilling and enjoyable. Spouses that follow this policy and meet each other's needs fall in love and stay in love with each other.

As I already mentioned, negotiation is very tough in marriage because each state of mind, Intimacy, Conflict and Withdrawal, tends to discourage negotiation. But the Policy of Joint Agreement can help us override our instincts, and enable us to negotiate fairly regardless of our state of mind. That's because "enthusiastic" agreement is the goal, as opposed to "reluctant" agreement.

In the state of Intimacy, our Giver would agree to almost anything if it would make our spouse happy. But it would not be an enthusiastic agreement -- it would be a self-sacrificing, suffering-servant kind of agreement. Only our Taker is capable of "enthusiastic" agreements, because it's only enthusiastic about something that's in our own best interest. If you and your spouse are in enthusiastic agreement, it means that both of your Takers agree that the decision is in your best interests. Those are the agreements that are most likely to make you both happy.

In this short introduction to the Policy of Joint Agreement, I have presented a broad panorama of what it is, why it's so important in marriage, and how you should apply it in your marriage. But there are many details I've left out of this introduction that I describe more completely in the Q&A section of this web site. To make it easier to find these columns and answer some of the questions you might have at this very moment, I will describe some of those that are most relevant to the subject, negotiating with the Policy of Joint Agreement.

Link to full article with the links to the Q&A section~~~> The Policy of Joint Agreement aka POJA

Chewie, following the POJA is a MUST for a happy and successful marriage...Are you willing to follow it?

I also agree with the others regarding the polygraph...Are you willing to take one? If so, will YOU be the one responsible for finding the polygrapher and setting it up? I think you should be. When will you be doing this?

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Mrs. W., I disagree that Chewie should be setting up the polygraph examination. The polygrapher should be working for Chrysalis...NOT Chewie.

If Chewie sets it all up, how will Chrysalis know that he didn't set things up so that the polygrapher only gives Chrysalis what Chewie wants her to know?


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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Originally Posted by Lady_Clueless
Mrs. W., I disagree that Chewie should be setting up the polygraph examination. The polygrapher should be working for Chrysalis...NOT Chewie.

If Chewie sets it all up, how will Chrysalis know that he didn't set things up so that the polygrapher only gives Chrysalis what Chewie wants her to know?

He should do the legwork...Chrysalis would then be able to talk to the polygrapher and pound out the details...I'm just saying he needs to LEAD this recovery LC - Bring her several choices to choose from...stuff like that...He made this mess, he needs to do the clean-up...

Mrs. W


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FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
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I see your viewpoint, Mrs. W., but I don't think he should even know WHO the polygrapher is until the day of the appointment, preferably at the last minute.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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Originally Posted by Lady_Clueless
I see your viewpoint, Mrs. W., but I don't think he should even know WHO the polygrapher is until the day of the appointment, preferably at the last minute.

Wow, that seems awfully paranoid...I don't believe that many polygraphers would wish to lay their careers on the line to appease one wayward man...*shrug*

I'm simply saying that this would be a good step for him to take...Go to the yellow pages or google or whatever and bring that info to Chrys...Shows a willingness to do whatever it takes, imo...

Mrs. W


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FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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One question: what were you doing with this woman's e-mail address still on your computer? If you had it in your address book, that says a lot. If you had to type it in, it was not spontaneous. Does not make sense that this was as reflexive an act as you allege if you retained her address or had to do all the work of typing it in. I think you are lying to yourself about your motivations.

Zelmo #2199550 01/25/09 01:33 PM
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I think you are lying to yourself about your motivations.

YES..that's what I meant about you NOT being HONEST. The BEST SCENARIO...IMO... which is still AWFUL, is that you are not being honest with YOURSELF.


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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Dr. Harley makes it clear that you will be ADDICTED to the OP for the REST OF YOUR LIFE..and must ALWAYS and FOREVER...take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS against contact..any kind of contact whatsoever...

Have you bought into the FACT that you are ADDICTED to her?


I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
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