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That's a nice song, Mark. He's quite the guitarist.
Ap,
I know what both of ours are, and we have talked about them a few times, but I am kind of in self protect mode still. I don't totally trust him not to take off again, so I am not really that secure in giving him all my love in that way again, yet.
He is kind of selfish (not to strangers or homeless people, though, just me and his marriage).
I could be making a mistake in not consciously meeting all his needs (I do meet some naturally), but when I do he doesn't meet mine and then I get ticked off and my taker comes roaring out.
I'll put some more thought into it and try to decide if I could meet all his E/N's regularly it would cause him to fall madly in love with me again. But, I don't know, he's more of a wayward, entitled mentality than a committed to marriage kind of person, unfortunately for me. I'm not saying he's a bad person, or trying to bad mouth him in anyway as he does have a lot of good qualities, just too used to being single, maybe.
I'll think about it and maybe start a thread in the future to get some of the others' opinions.
I'll put some more thought into it and try to decide if I could meet all his E/N's regularly it would cause him to fall madly in love with me again.
Ask him?
Write that very question down (so you have it the way you want it) and give it to him.
eta: According to Dr H, wife falling madly in love with me would be precisely the fully guaranteed result of me meeting her ENs. LOL. Not by a long shot. I was meeting them all, all along (even according to her) and in the way she wanted them met. Redoubling my efforts after DDay 1 of the VLTA did not make her love me. Redoubling again after DDay 2 did not make her love me either. If anything she started thinking I am a fool. But, maybe that�s just due to my incompetence. You might be better at meeting ENs than I am. I no longer care one way or the other. Might still be worth a shot for you though...
Last edited by Aphelion; 06/24/1004:45 PM.
"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan
"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky
WS: They are who they are.
When an eel lunges out And it bites off your snout Thats a moray ~DS
And yes, I should probably just ask him. I'm still going to protect myself emotionally and financially. Someone who leaves so easily has proven that leaving is easy for them.
Anyway, this song is for him. Even though he doesn't read here and does not especially like this place. Actually, he can't stand it.
Heck, I can't stand it either! Paraphrasing those old Listerine commercials: "Marriage Builders? I HATE IT! ...but I use it 2wice a day!"
Best relationships are where the partners recognize that it isn't their responsibility 2 make their spouse do anything, including (especially) love them. The best relationships are between 2 individuals who don't "need" their needs met, but choose 2 meet (or exceed) their partner's needs because they want 2.
I'm with Frank Pittman. People who believe they can (or should) sustain romantic love indefinitely are fooling themselves. It is the "caring love" that the Harleys describe that is sustaining.
Having said that, I'm an incurable romantic, I think:
[I'm with Frank Pittman. People who believe they can (or should) sustain romantic love indefinitely are fooling themselves. It is the "caring love" that the Harleys describe that is sustaining.
Thank goodness this is a load of CRAP. Anyone who has actually used this program in the way it is intended will tell you that it is ROMANTIC LOVE that is sustaining. Caring love does not sustain anything other than peaceful co-existance. That is not what Dr Harley subscribes.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
[According to Dr H, wife falling madly in love with me would be precisely the fully guaranteed result of me meeting her ENs. LOL. Not by a long shot. I was meeting them all, all along (even according to her) and in the way she wanted them met. Redoubling my efforts after DDay 1 of the VLTA did not make her love me. Redoubling again after DDay 2 did not make her love me either.
First off, Dr Harley does not say that his program works in a marriage where one spouse refuses or refuses to participate. Where does he ever guarantee to FORCE your spouse to fall in love against her will? That is ridiculous.
You are setting false standards for Dr Harley's program and then declaring his program a failure by these arbitrary, insane standards.
What Dr Harley does recommend for marriages where one spouse refuses to participate in a program of recovery is PLAN B to be vacated only when the WS agrees to participate in the program. You did not do that.
You can't blame Dr Harley for your wife's failure to participate and your failure to utilize Plan B in the manner subscribed.
A program can only work if you work it, Aphelion. I am sorry you and your wife chose to NOT work this program, but that is not Dr Harley's fault.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
I'm with Frank Pittman. People who believe they can (or should) sustain romantic love indefinitely are fooling themselves. It is the "caring love" that the Harleys describe that is sustaining.
2Long, here is what Dr Harley believes and I hardly think he is "fooling himself." He actually tests the strength of this program by giving a test to his clients to measure the level of ROMANTIC LOVE they feel for one another. He doesn't just make willy nilly, unsubstantiated claims:
Quote
The difference between my approach to saving marriages, and the approach of most other therapists, is that I focus on building romantic love (being "in love") between spouses, rather than simply focusing on conflict resolution. As it turns out, I also address conflict resolution, but I do it in a way that builds love between spouses.
Since most marital therapists fail to address the romantic love issue when they try to help couples, their approach to conflict resolution usually fails to build love, and as a result, the couples divorce, even after "resolving" some of their conflicts.
<snip>
My experience with couples agrees with the results of this study. In successful marriages, spouses expect to change to accommodate each other's needs, so when a spouse registers a complaint, it's a signal for action. In failed marriages, on the other hand, spouses expect to be accepted as they are, without change. A complaint is interpreted as an unwillingness to love unconditionally, a failure of the complaining spouse. So instead of adjusting to the complaint, the defense is offered, "if you really loved me, you would not try to change me. You would let me continue to do whatever it is I'm doing."
You seem to have bought into the crap that most therapists sell, that romantic love is impossible. And yes it is for them and their clients. That is where Marriage Builders differs from the others.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
[I'm with Frank Pittman. People who believe they can (or should) sustain romantic love indefinitely are fooling themselves. It is the "caring love" that the Harleys describe that is sustaining.
Thank goodness this is a load of CRAP. Anyone who has actually used this program in the way it is intended will tell you that it is ROMANTIC LOVE that is sustaining. Caring love does not sustain anything other than peaceful co-existance. That is not what Dr Harley subscribes.
2funny, Mel! I don't really think that the Harleys are so inflexible that they can't apply different approaches 2 solving marital problems. That was my experience with Steve, at any rate.
Frank Pittman:
Quote
People who think they can't endure life unless they are "in love" are dangerous. After thirty-seven years in the trenches of family therapy and thirty-seven years in a totally committed, totally realistic marriage, I have come to see "romantic love" as an absurd, albeit delicious, crisis-induced escape from sanity, a narcissistic intoxication with no relationship to loving
Quote
Despite it all, if one is unpartnered and alone, romantic love can be a resolution to loneliness as magically ecstatic and lifesaving as Robinson Crusoe's spotting of the footsteps in the sand. While it will not last, the fact that it was once there and that memories of it can be conjured up from time to time makes a resultant marriage feel special and right. Of course misery (and/or an extensive sexual and romantic supporting cast) can result if the partners are so foolish as to require continuation of their romantic high for a lifetime.
Quote
John Gottman finds in What Predicts Divorce that long-term marital satisfaction comes from factors such as companionship and friendship, and the ability to provide support, validation, and understanding, rather than passion and in-loveness. It seems to me dangerous for people to stake their happiness in life on romantic love. They are ecstatic when they experience that most engulfing flight from reality, but miserable when they don't. Romance can pull you out of a funk, but it has far more side effects than Prozac.
I have to disagree based on personal experience. I was in-love with my ex-husband everyday for the entire 10 years that we were married (and several months after that). He met my needs (I thought) and I loved him in every sense of the word. He was not in-love with me, he was deceptive, unfaithful and he left me. That did not change my feelings for him until I realized that I was in-love with his presentation of himself - not the real man.
2funny, Mel! I don't really think that the Harleys are so inflexible that they can't apply different approaches 2 solving marital problems.
Thanks for making my point that other therapists don't know how to create romantic love. Why would anyone be interested in that "approach," 2Long? Who wants a mediocre marriage? That is not what I am here for.
The Harleys are here to make great marriages, not mediocre ones. They don't have "TWO" approaches to GREAT marriages, but ONE approach that leads to romantic love. In your quotes, those therapists don't even believe it is possible, much less know how to acheive it.
So why would anyone follow a failed approach?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
[I'm with Frank Pittman. People who believe they can (or should) sustain romantic love indefinitely are fooling themselves. It is the "caring love" that the Harleys describe that is sustaining.
Thank goodness this is a load of CRAP. Anyone who has actually used this program in the way it is intended will tell you that it is ROMANTIC LOVE that is sustaining. Caring love does not sustain anything other than peaceful co-existance. That is not what Dr Harley subscribes.
2funny, Mel! I don't really think that the Harleys are so inflexible that they can't apply different approaches 2 solving marital problems. That was my experience with Steve, at any rate.
2long, isn't it kind of bad form to sit here on this website, provided by Dr. Harley, and deny everything that Dr. Harley stands for? I'm talking about romantic love.
If you wanted to question Dr. Harley's conclusions in open debate, I'm sure most of us would welcome that. But you're not rationally analyzing and considering objections to Dr. Harley's conclusions, nor did you make any real attempt to answer the objections MelodyLane offered to what you were saying.
You're passing a completely fraudulent claim that pursuing a different GOAL is simply another APPROACH. The GOAL of Marriage Builders is Romantic Love. Practitioners who deny that Romantic Love is realistic are obviously not merely following a different approach to the same goal; they must have a completely different goal (or no goal) in mind, since they deny that that the Marriage Builders goal is possible!
Misrepresenting this denial of the Marriage Builders goal as different "approach" and making ad hominem attacks at anyone who disagrees with those quotes as "inflexible" may fill some need you have, but it does not represent your case well, and it makes you look quite ungracious to your hosts, Dr. Harley's Marriage Builders practice, which believes in the goal of romantic love.
Can you explain why you think denying the possibility of romantic love is a valid way to approach the goal of romantic love?
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!
Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010
