Hello Everyone!
My wife and have been together for 21 years and married for 19 years.
She worked as an office manager for a small company until we had our first child
17 years ago when she quit working to be a full-time mother. She was thrilled to have this opportunity since most of our friends were forced to be "two income" families for financial reasons. Fortunately we have been very blessed in that my career has allowed me to support my wife and family beyond any expectations that we had at the time she quit working.
3 years ago my wife became severely depressed, and our relationship went downhill fast.
I didn't accept her depression as "real", and she didn't seek professional help.
We went to a marriage counselor for a year, but eventually the counselor told us that there was no hope for us until my wife got help for her depression, and asked us not to come back. We stayed together, but things were horrible for both of us.
About 18 months ago she and I got into a big fight because she decided that she wanted to buy some horses. She claimed would help her be happier, and also help her relationship with our daughter, which was very strained at the time. I said "NO".
A few weeks later she announced that she had taken a part time job at a local bank, and that she was going to use "her" money to buy the horses and there was nothing that I could do about it.
With her working, things got even worse because she was no longer taking care of the house at all and our kids had to quit activities that took place after school, etc.
About 6 months my wife told me that she couldn't go on any longer in our existing state, and told me to leave (which I did). We remained in contact daily, and both began working very hard on our issues. she went to a doctor who got her on the path out of depression. We have read Dr. Harley's books, and have done all of the worksheets which have helped IMMENSELY. We also began counseling again, and it has been working wonderfully.
At Christmas we decided to work towards get back together. Things have been going great, but we are currently hung up on the issue of her working.
I told her that I would like for her to quit her job, and that I would gladly pay for the upkeep of the horses if it meant that our family could heal better and faster. I also have a job that allows me to travel all over the world, and she and our kids can travel for free with me. Her job has ZERO flexibility regarding her schedule, so it has and will prevent us from being able to take advantage of this wonderful benefit. She also has to work evenings and weekends, which leaves a huge hole in our family life.
And lastly, our accountant has told us that her working actually costs us about $5,000.00 a year due to our tax situation.
Initially she said that she would be happy to quit working, but she kept putting off her resignation.
Last night she told me that she gets a lot of satisfaction from the job, and doesn't want to quit it. I suggested that she replace it with volunteer work which would allow her the flexibility that we need, but she said that she is afraid that it wouldn't give her the same satisfaction. And there just aren't any jobs out there that have the kind of flexibility that we both agree would be needed to meet our needs.
I feel VERY strongly about her quitting her job, and honestly feel that if she doesn't the chances of us successfully reuniting are slim.
Between the issues with the kids and my desire to do things with her on weekends and evening in addition to the travel, I just think that resentment will come back between all of us and will kill the relationship for good.
All of our friends, family, and even our counselor are telling her that she should be thrilled to be able to quit and take care of her family and home.
Money is NOT an issue. She only makes enough to pay for the care and feeding of her horses, and if God forbid we do split up for good, she will be financially "set" for life through the divorce settlement, since we own a decent sized, successful business.
I don't ever want to minimize her feelings or tell her that her needs are not valid, and have told her that I am not going to ever demand that she quit, but have also been honest with her regarding my feelings about the negative impact that her working.
Can anyone give me any advice or help?
I'm hoping that someone out there has faced the same type of problem and can point us to some books or websites, or can tell me what they did to work through their situation.
I'm sorry for the insanely long message, but putting our relationship back together is by FAR the most important thing in my life right now, and I'm DESPERATE to find a workable solution to this conflict.
Thanks in advance for ANY help!

"All of our friends, family, and even our counselor are telling her that she should be thrilled to be able to quit and take care of her family and home."

Wow. Obviously she isn't thrilled to quit and take care of her family and home. I'm really surprised that a counselor would presume to decide what would make her happy.

I hope you will read more on this site, especially about the Policy of Joint Agreement.

Your wife needs the job to feel like a complete person. Without it, she is just an appendage of you and your company and your house and your kids...

That said, I think a good POJA would be to be creative and work hard on finding a different job that does offer the flexibility. For instance, I used to work at a big department store, and they had what they called floaters. These people would call in when they wanted hours to work, and HR would fit them into the schedule; if they didn't want to work that week, they just didn't. Go to your Chamber of Commerce and tell them what you're looking for and see if they know of any companies like that. Another option is to sign up with a temp agency. Lots of flexibility with that.

Unfortunately we live in the Midwest, and right now the unemployment rate is VERY high here.
The temp places aren't even taking any names or applications these days.
Plus from what she says, the friends that she has made at work are the main reason that she wants to stay. She wouldn't have that if she was going from job to job. And she admits that she is VERY unhappy about having to work times like Christmas Eve, the day after Thanksgiving, etc., and I can only imagine that at a temp job she would get the "crap" hours also.

I agree about her needing to be a complete person, but what did our mothers and grandmothers do to make themselves complete?
I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm just trying to understand what has changed. Along with most other married men, I've always done a lot of the chores and housework, and am FAR more involved in my kids upbringing on a day to day basis than my Dad and the other men of his generation. Did the women in the past just accept their "lot" in life?

Believer,
Thanks for your comments!
My wife and I have read all over this site, and have read the books and done all the homework.

I guess when I said that people are telling her to be "thrilled", they are talking about having the CHOICE to do what she wants. The grass is always greener, and my wife's friends look at her as extremely lucky, and say that they would kill to be able to be at home with their kids and not have to work.
Probably after a month or two of actually BEING at home full time with their kids they would be going completely CRAZY, but in their minds it would be a dream come true.

A big part of my frustration is that years ago my wife and I had set a lot of goals for ourselves for the future, which are now coming to pass.
I perceive her being unavailable to the family because of her evening / weekend work schedule as being a major sabotage to our goals. We have GREAT kids, more than enough money to do whatever we want, and lots of wonderful friends. But it all means NOTHING to me if I can't share it with her because virtually every day is affected in a negative way by her schedule or by some crazy new rule put into place by some goofy middle manager where she works.
I know this is a somewhat selfish viewpoint, and I'm trying my best to be understanding. It's just that right now things are just SO fragile in our rebuilding process, and a lot of the issues that we are working on right now are directly tied to this one thing. I'm just deathly afraid that all of the hard work that we have been doing for the last few months will be for nothing if she insists on staying at her current job. I know that it's her decision to make and that the worst thing that I can do is to pressure her or demand that she quit. I'm just praying for help and guidance.

Yep. The women in the past just accepted their lot in life.

DUDE - Please read the Policy of Joint Agreement stuff here. You need to work on this.

It sounds to me like your wife has put aside her entire life to cater to you and the children. Now she wants more, but you don't like the upset to the status quo--you want your wife to continue to be available to you, at the drop of a hat.

If you're in such a fragile state in your marriage right now, I suggest that you put yourself in the position of the person who bends to the other's will. Not so much fun being at someone else's mercy, is it?

Personally, I would like to punch people who tell me that I should be thrilled to be a SAHM. It's boring, tedious, and quite unfulfilling, actually. But my kids are still small, so I put my self-fulfillment efforts towards things I can do on my own schedule, from home. Your wife has made a different choice. Respect that. And her.

Actually, I had the privilege of being a SAHM for 5 years, and I loved it. But that is me.

Your wife doesn't like it. And that is a fair choice too.

Why are all these other people putting in their input, and you believe them, but don't listen to your wife?

Um, excuse me?

along with most other married men?

I think you should get hold of a better survey. I can't even come up with 5 men I know who do anything more than garbage and mowing.

Our mothers and grandmothers knew that women wouldn't get hired, so it never even occurred to them to wish for more. I'm 50, so I've lived through the change. When I graduated high school in 76, we were still expected to find a husband and have babies. We could try to start a career, of course (pat your little head), but we all knew that as soon as the first baby came along, we'd quit that job and return to the home.

Today, my D18 only knows one girl who is even considering becoming a SAHM. Out of 30 or 40 girls.

Staying home to raise your kids is a great goal. But in today's environment, you have to be aware that women often do aspire to be more.

Compromises? Maybe she could stay home until the youngest goes to Kindergarten and then she could return to the workforce; in the meantime, she may be able to maintain her friendships from work during evenings or weekends.

Or she could talk to her boss and ask for a more flexible schedule.

Or she could be more creative and find other ways to work, such as co-ops with other SAHMs or working from home and giving her time to make/meet friends outside the house when you can come home to be with the kids.

Catperson,
Thanks for the good suggestions!

Maybe I'm just the exception to the rule.
I've always done a lot of the laundry, dishes, etc.
When my wife was in the deepest part of her depression I was doing a majority of the housework and chores, and our kids were doing the rest. I won't lie. When that was going on I resented it, and that was one of the big things that put us on a major downward spiral that led up to our separation. Of course that was all before we read Dr. Harley's books and did his worksheets and stuff.
Now we both realize that we were both doing a LOT of bad things, understand each others needs, and have the tools to get back (and Stay) on track.

Unfortunately the small bank where she works recently merged with some others and has become a large, inflexible place.
I am learning that it's very common for couples who are getting back together after a separation to make incredible headway, and then hit a "major" issue that threatens to derail the whole thing. I'm sure that it will all work out OK for us, and I genuinely appreciate everyone's comments and opinions!

O....M....G

My mother, and my grandmother, both worked outside the home. I am 50, so I'll let you do the math. But suffice it to say in my family, we progressed beyond the cave.


BWA HA HA HA HA !!! Come on, that was funny.


That's good, but not as unheard of as you might think. Actually my Dad was quite involved in my stuff. He'd come pick me up from practice as often as my mom. Again, I guess we were more progressive than the cave dwellers.


Oh good grief, I can't even respond to that one.

THG, I know a guy whose wise decided she wanted more in life than just being a trophy wife to him. She started to do volunteer work and he threw a fit. She went back to school and they separated. now she has a job (which is loves, health care field) and he is as bitter as it gets. He just can't understand why his wife could not be happy staying at home, getting her hair done, and making herself up perfect for when he got home. They are going through an incredibly bitter divorce right now.

I would strongly urge you to devleop some respect for your wife instead of using her as a maid and sperm receptacle. Some women actually want to have an identity outside of their wife/mother role.

I'm a tad confused and want to summarize for clarity...please let me know where I've missed the boat...

You and your wife are currently separated. You are not living together. You separated roughly a year ago?

You moved out of the family home. So you are not currently doing those household chores at the family home; you are doing yours at your separate abode? Did you take the kids with you when you left, or are they with her?

Your, during this separation, has sought treatment for her depression, and is receiving both medication and counseling, is that correct?

You both have read and like the MB materials and books and are in MC now with a different counselor than the one who would no longer see you before, is that correct?

And it sounds to me like her working schedule is what you consider the biggest conflict right now, for a variety of reasons. The issue that seems to snag recoverying your marriage, is that correct?

If this is correct, I see it differently. Depression is a lifelong battle--cannot be trained out of someone either chemically...has to have the acceptance of the chemical releases inherent biologically, and then trained awareness and self-response to it when it seemingly comes on stronger. Takes retraining your brain, essentially.

Do you understand her depression and the core cause, separate from the biological aspect? Does she? Because to me, at issue, is her desire to continue to work, realizing fully how you hurt, how she hurt her kids, and how she puts the job ahead of the marriage, is the issue of admiration, appreciation, attention and acceptance.

One core part of depression is self-rejection. That means we fill ourselves up from the outside in...and severely neglect ourselves, even erase ourselves...thinking others do that...so it entails a lot of betrayal, anger (even rage) with nowhere to go and distorts our signals.

As I'm sure you read in the Harley literature, The Giver is as much a danger to your marriage in the extreme as the Taker in the extreme is...and I'm wondering how much you spoke of your admiration, appreciation of her as a SAHM mom, recognized how difficult, how complex it really is...instead of how appreciative SHE should be that she was able to do it...doing it, separate from financial (that's added in there) is really, truly tough...and having been an office manager prior to beginning the family, I'm sure she did it well...and then she hit that deadstop, that incapacitation that depression can feel like, which can be a Taker's way of saying stop after being ignored for too long.

I can't tell of your ENs if FC is higher than DS or not...and which ENs this job issue really hits (negates getting the 20 hours of UA or not) or if you're not comfortable with that many hours per week, anyway, so you're thinking of compacting them in vacation/travelling time and not in between.

One thing in counseling is to know your own darn stuff first...what you own as yours help you see where you're reaching in to what isn't yours...so you can respect and experience deep respect.

My heart commiserates with you over being the partner to depression...very, very rough road. I know because it's reversed in my marriage...and what I saw my DH go through with mine (not until long after) brought out a lot of acts of admiration, appreciation, acceptance and attention from me, which changed a lot. That helpless feeling (depression isn't about you, so you have no control) is exasperating. You want to be some of the cause to be part of the cure...hard when that's impossible.

And most of the time, it's impossible, anyway.

Do you acknowledge, validate you heard your wife correctly? Sounds like you're bent on a solution (as you see it) and you cannot solve your wife. She chooses. When you do not respect her power (to choose) and keep trying to change her choices, then you disrespect her...and will experience a disrespectful marriage.

Which is your choice. How about truly looking at the separation, what it means, how it makes/has made your marriage even more vulnerable to boundary crossing, and where your real priorities have been, rather than where they have appeared to be.

Your frustration and exasperation lessens by leaps and bounds when you focus on what is yours, within your power, your responsibility...and those same signals increase when you're focused where you are into others' power, their territory.

People aren't problems. They cannot be solved. They aren't broken. We will often hear we are the problem, a problem, when we have them. Make sure of what you're saying when you say it...best way to do this is listen and repeat what she says to confirm or clarify what you heard. To know, not to correct, offer suggestions right now...to sincerely know and accept her as the separate and equal human you married.

You can do this. Look at where your focus is and be aware how much you want a fast fix, to get to your marriage, your feelings, into a better place--is it so your frustration, fear, pain and anger go away? If you do to feel, then your feelings still run your life (no different than depression, really); same for you feel therefore you do/do not. Sounds to me like you stopped doing from feeling and have done from commitment...for the most part...stay there and stop doing...focus on being.

Have you checked to make sure there isn't an Emotional Affair at work, btw?

Thank you for being on MB.

LA

My mother was a nurse. My dad wanted her to quit her job and be a SAHM; she thought that was ridiculous, especially since he blew all our money all the time, and kept working.

He used that as his 'reason' for going out and having affairs - he needed a woman who acted like a woman. When he tried to come crawling back, she told him to take a hike and divorced him. He proceeded to marry a June Cleaver as fast as he could. Dad was dragged around by this woman for the rest of his life; mom was thrilled she never had to bend her will for a man again.

THG, I am not sure what is going on here, but I find it odd that your wife would suddenly begin to gain her IDENTITY from a little job at the bank when she was not geared so superficially before.

Rather, I suspect there is more going on here.

She wants you out of the house, clinging to a job, depressed are all red flags which makes me wonder if she isn't having an affair. Depression is COMMON in affairs because our conscience is being abused and we are conflicted.

If I were you, I would move back home ASAP and start doing some sleuthing. Additionally, you might want to look into phone coaching with the Harleys or a MB weekend. I suspect she won't be interested, though, which would be further indication of an affair.

But you must first RULE OUT an affair before you can go forward. Moving out was a MAJOR, STRATEGIC MISTAKE that should be remedied immediately. Moving out makes it very hard for you to save your marriage and only increases your odds of divorce. It also gives her the freedom to carry on an affair.

Here is a thread about why its a bad idea to leave your home here

Did you say you travel for a living? How many days a week are you gone?

I agree with other posts about completing the policy of joint agreement. I also believe you can't make this kind of demand on your wife when she's told you she enjoys her coworkers and her job. She has a need and it's being fulfilled. It's making her happy. Keep working on your relationship but with this issue she'll need to discover on her own what she's missing out on at home. She eventually will weigh the value of the job hours and demands against what she has at home and hopefully home will win out. And won't that be wondeful - that she came to that conclusion on her own.

G