k,

You're in a MESS and you're making matters worse with your inactions. You are also getting some pretty bad advice from some who don't have much of a clue what they are talking about.

Given your situation, if you feel the advice you're getting is conflicting, I believe I would go with the advice of The Road ... he has more experience and knowledge.

kangkok

"TheRoad says WW is manipulating me to meet EN that OM cannot. Again so what? If they live together and he can't meet all her EN then good. Meanwhile I have to demonstrate that I can or could meet those needs. TheRoad - there are no joint credit cards or bank accounts."

The SO WHAT is this: Your WW can fence sit forever. Why would a WW give up her BH and her OM when together the both of these guys are getting all of her needs met?

The answer is they don't. WW will use you till she no longer needs you. Right now she needs you to be at her beck and call with your car at the ready.

How is this doing any good for you?

WW is using your car and WW is still using your OM for sex.

Let the OM take over meeting her needs and failing at it will be the best motivation for your WW to give up the OM.

While you keep doing what the OM can't do your WW will never see how the OM can't provide for her.

You may be trying and thinking that you are making love deposits. What you don't understand is that your window at the love bank has been closed. Your WW will not accept deposits from you. At this point she is only accepting deposits from the OM.

Only until WW realizes that the OM can't or won't meet many of her important needs your WW will never accept deposits from you.

"She said that she is now not having sexual relations with either of us because she needs space from both of us. She said that in her new home she is going to be sleeping in separate bedrooms. She explained that she is only moving in with OM because she could not afford a decent place on her own and needs to share expenses, but that she definitely needs her space and time away from me to 'get her head straight'. She said she and OM will live 'kind of separate'. All garbage perhaps but I'm just reporting what she has told me."

You are so deep in denial. There going at it like teenagers now as I type this. How you do not call her out is unbelieveable. It's one thing to be so afraid of her. But you can't even call her out to us that she is lying.

"She continues to purchase things for her new home but always seems to have an eye on where things might go in our house."

Your WW knows all the right things to say to string you along so you do not cause her any problems. Do as she wants. Allow your self to be lied to and be used.

K,
I wish more vets would jump on your thread for your sake. But I will comment on a few things in light of MyRev comments.

First would TheRoad please tell us the status of his marriage? Without a signature its difficult to remember.

Maybe the situation (from the thread below) is very different but lets look at comments from TheRoad here:


Versus your advice to Kang. It seems contradictory to urge Kang to go to plan B immediately after reading the above.

And again my advice is not based on my feelings about Kang’s situation but rather on what Dr. Harley advises, as best as I can recall. It has been noted more than once that plan B is much more effective if there is a good or great plan A. Why is TheRoad disregarding this when it seems as though you advised it elsewhere?

MyRev, I have recovered my marriage using MBer ways. I have read SAA, HNHN and a list of many other books very effective at improving my marriage.

In addition, in what regard is Kang being "used"? I understand he is being betrayed but if WW is spending time with him, conversation, recreation, cooking & eating together, none of that sounds like being used. Being used would be "Thanks for the ride home BH now I am off to SF with OM." SLAM. Or "Thanks for the SF husband, now I'm going back to OM." Just not happening per his reports.

Rather it sounds like WW is spending important time with him finding out that he can be the MAN that she needed all along.

Kang, it would be very helpful if you would expound on your AO history. Was there verbal or physical abuse by you on your spouse? In other words why the 5 yr long A?? Why did she disconnect from you?

P.S. We are very fortunate to have TheRoad and others here advising both sides of the equation. K, you make the calls.

MyRevelation,
Thank you for your contribution. Perhaps you can comment on the posts by TheRoad, bigpicture and myself that follows yours.

DNU1,
Thank you for your continuing encouragement and comment. Perhaps you can comment on the posts by TheRoad and bigpictuture, myrevelation and myself that follow yours.

TheRoad,

Your comments and advice are welcome.

You say 'WW is manipulating me to meet EN that OM cannot', 'WW will use you till she no longer needs you', 'WW is using your car and WW is still using your OM for sex', 'WW knows all the right things to say to string you along so you do not cause her any problems. Do as she wants. Allow your self to be lied to and be used'.

All agreed but isn't that what WWs do while plan A is underway?

You say 'Let the OM take over meeting her needs and failing at it will be the best motivation for your WW to give up the OM'.
Understood but does that mean plan B now.? As she is moving OM has to take over some of her needs and may well fail. Is it not better to wait and see if that occurs (whilst always having the option to move to plan B in the near future)?

You say, 'There going at it like teenagers now'. Yes, but as I said I was only reporting what she said.

I still feel that it is too early to plan B. However, I agree that my boundaries are not tight enough at present. For example, perhaps I should withdraw my offer to continue to provide lifts from work.

Plan A is everything that meats your wife EN. This does not include satisfying her affair.

The stick also includes exposure. Tell her neighbours. Anything that breaks her contact with OM. Meet her basic needs.

Please read up Plan A.

bigpicture,

AO and the background to the A.

Sorry, but a long post to explain. It is mainly about a business rather than a marriage, but that was the problem.

This is my first marriage. In my 20s and early 30s I had no desire to commit to marriage nor start a family. That changed in my mid 30s but for 10 years I never found the 'right one'. I had numerous relationships and have both been dumped and been the dumper, but in all cases I knew that I was not with the right person.

All that changed when I met my current W. We clicked, the chemistry was there etc.. After a year courtship we married in April 2001.

I am a caterer by trade. It is an awful profession, I now know, to have when married, due to the unsocial hours which lead to marriage problems. In late 2001 my W announced she was pregnant, for which I was grateful and it made me happy. At the time I owned a restaurant and we lived in an appartment above it. It was no place to bring up a child. We considered the options.

After much thought my W and I decided to open a new restaurant in partnership. When a suitable and affordable place was found there was no associated accomodation. Therefore we needed a house.

We moved house in April 2002 with no knowledge of future income. We completed purchase of the restaurant in June 2002 (although we did not get it open until October 2002) and my son was born in July 2002. All that in 4 months!

Up until summer 2002 I believe our marriage was good and strong. However the restaurant immediately ran into difficulties and this was against the background of a large loan to repay on the house and looking after a baby. I began to concentrate on working at the business to get it right, and of course was working 70 hours each week, much of it in the evening. My W would work daytime but after a short afternoon break I would return to the restaurant in the evening. We did have Sundays off, but even then there was a couple of hours paperwork to do.

Most conversation we had revolved around the business and its problems. Now I began to talk incessantly about it. Other conversation was mainly about the baby. I was now giving her hardly any attention, affection was lacking, there were financial difficulties and I was not being a good father due to not being there and when I was still worrying about the future of the business.

When the restaurant opened we began to use a taxi company with only a few drivers. It was one of these drivers who became the OM. For various reasons we did not always travel together, and obviously my W began to form a relationship. He became her friend, then her support and ...well you know the rest.

I began drinking heavily due to the worry and my AOs began in late 2002. I would often return home at around 1am to be greeted with a loving wife and a late dinner she had cooked. What did I do? I went on and on about the business, what to do, how to improve it etc. But I was doing it in an angry way fuelled by drink. If she suggested something I would angrily criticise it saying I was the expert, she didn't understand. I would criticise her contribution to the business. And of course I was ignoring her evening, the baby and so on. I was extremely neglectful of her. The AOs were not daily but maybe as often as once a week.

I did not understand how badly this was affecting her. In the morning, after an AO, all seemed to me normal. We might discuss other things or maybe reflect on the previous day. She would behave lovingly and I believed she fully understood my problems and was being wonderfully supportive. Little did I realise that she was becoming scared of who would come home each evening - was it that grumpy person worried about things, was it that loving husband she sometimes got or was it that angry drunk. For me I was still stupid enough not to see how I was affecting her, although this was partly because she never became angry with me. Of course she did say she was upset sometimes but this went over my head and I genuinely believed she was OK. How stupid of me. This state of affairs continued throughout 2003, 2004 and 2005.

During 2003 the A must have been developing as the OM began to meet those ENs I was not satisfying. When it turned physical I do not know. For our sexual relationship things were not so good. Sex became less frequent, but I put this down to a loss of libido on her part due to the birth of a child, exhaustion of working and bringing up a child. It never crossed my mind that she was having an A and getting twice or more as much as me!

The business lost money in 2003, broke even in 2004 and was eventually profitable by 2005. Then disaster. Without going into detail the commencement of a construction site next to the restaurant led to a collapse in trade. We were already heavily in debt. Emergency action was needed.

As a first step my W returned to her old profession of accounting technician which brought in much needed money in January 2006. We decided to have a crisis meeting and chose to do this by taking a vacation in Cyprus (without our son). There we went through all the possibilities. Eventually we decided we must sell the business and because that would still not provide enough cash we would sell the house and downgrade, using the remaining equity to clear our debts. We moved house in February 2007 and sold the business in April 2007, completing the final wind up within two months. I now needed a job and got a new one quickly.

Now our relationship improved dramatically. I stopped drinking to excess and now I had time to devote to my W and son. Things were much better. My W agrees that there was vast improvement in 2007 and 2008. But, of course, the A continued. And, the changes and improvements, so I have now discovered, were not enough. My W now tells me that as that did not change me enough she continued the A.

So what ENs was I still not meeting? Firstly with my extra time she believed I would help more with domestic chores and with our son. I didnt see it. She had been carrying out most of these duties alone from 2002 to 2007. But why didn't I help more? Let me explain by using the vacuum cleaner example. She had always been the only person who vacuumed, so why should I get involved? In fact I believed she would take it as an insult if I picked up the vacuum cleaner as I though she would take it as implied criticism that she did not clean well enough. (By the way because she vacuumed often I used to refer to the cleaner as her lover not realising there was a real one!!). I was not being lazy. While she was cleaning, for example, I would be gardening or decorating or something else useful. Nevertheless she felt I did not help her or contribute enough to the domestic chores (I do now in planA). Similarly, with the new time that was available she thought I would be taking a greater part in our son's life. Again I felt that I would be interfering if I took over giving him a bath, for example. Of course she didn't tell me that this bothered her or perhaps I wasn't listening properly.

During this time AOs were infrequent, though I admit they sometimes occured. Therefore that did not entirely go away for her. As I had built up habits and routines with my W they continued and so I still was not giving enough love and attention. Obviously the OM was.

By 2008 I was convinced our mariage was strong ; much improved. I was happy and contented. She wasn't. During this year the A escalated in intensity, eventually leading to DDay. There was a big AO at the time of discovery but because of the shock I don't recall details. The other AO since then, and the one that convinced her to move out was on Christmas Day. At the beginning of December she said she had finished with OM and wanted to put the marriage back together. One condition of her's was that until Christmas she did not want to discuss the OM, A or our situation. Just act normally. It went well but on Christamas Day evening I couldn't help but raise the subject. I found out she had been seeing OM within a few days of the start of December. An AO about her lies, cheating, dishonesty, not really trying to work on the marriage. She does know that I am not necessarily angry if told of something dramatic that will affect me deeply. When she said she had found a house and was moving out I took it extremely calmly. I have explained to her that this was because I get angry about lack of honesty, hence an outburst on DDay and Christmas Day, but not angry otherwise.

All of this happened before I found MB. Now of course I clearly see all the hundreds of mistakes I have made. At least I will become a better person because of all this.

Finally I should just mention that there has never been any physical violence of any kind ; never raised my hand to her nor ever threatened her.

big picture,

In response to you other points :

The post from TheRoads thread was most interesting. I agree there are contradictory views. at the moment I still remain of the opinion that plan A has sometime to run (but be assured not too long and I am not frightened of implementing plan B)

Also the two sides of the equation point is interesting. Am I being used, betrayed, part of each, both?

Yes, some contribution from other vets could help.

Kang. I feel for you my friend. These are indeed hard times for you and your family. My comments are these:

I was at first reluctant to post my story hear for fear of hearing the "you gotta do this..." or "you are a complete idiot...", etc. Since I had really no one else to talk to I did post here. And some very wise people advised me to be selective with replies and suggestions to my situation.

We are all trying to help in our own way -- TheRoad, PB, MyRev, etc. There are many more here with far more experience in this type of thing than me.

However, let me toot my own horn here for a little while -- I went through an affair 13 years ago with no knowledge of MBers theories and naturally moved in to a Plan A philosophy, even though I didn't know there was another man. Hung tough with Plan A for 9 months before DDay. And you know what, we managed to recover our marriage. Thirteen years later I'm back suffering through another DDay, but I'm armed with MB.com and things are improving.

I've got to think that 20+ years of student affairs / student development / university training and work experience helped me in A#1 and A#2.

Look, it's easy to read posts here, make assumptions and fire off opinions. Some great philosopher once said (i'm paraphrasing), it's easy to give advice to others...the truely difficult thing is to examine one's self.

All the advice we dish out here is just that, advice. No one can stand in your shoes. No one is feeling what you are feeling right now. No one can make, nor should make decisions about your life but you.

I once read that communication broken down into three categories -- what you say, how you say it and non-verbals as you deliver the message.

Only 22% of communication is WHAT you say, the actual words. The other 78% is HOW you say something and your NON-VERBALS when saying it. That is why e-mails, texts, message boards are no match for face-to-face communication.

Add to that equation the fact that you are relaying information your WW says to you and posting here on the forums. Well, you get the picture. And unfortunatley we get only part of the picture, part of the communication. And have to base our advice on that part-picture.

I've gotten a lot of great advice on this forum. I've taken some to heart and other advice I have choosen to let go. That's the glory of my life...it's mine. I can do with it what I like.

Take from this thread what helps you. You know your WW better than any one here. Use that knowledge, think about what you want from the marriage and move forward. Develop a plan and stick to it. Do what works for YOU.

I'm sure I can speak for everyone posting in this thread when I say "we've got your back." Hang in there!

I'm married.

Plan A is not being a door mat.

If WW has moved out and set up a house with the OM why not plan B? That question does not mean you have to plan B. Only think of it as an option.

"You say, 'There going at it like teenagers now'. Yes, but as I said I was only reporting what she said."

Yes, and I'll say it again. After reading here since 2004, I have read countless times where the WW said were just room mates. When the truth came out later the W admits that they were not just room mates, but they were just doing "It" in every room, every day, every way they could do "It".

It's sad to see your in such deep denial by hiding behind "Yes, but as I said I was only reporting what she said."

K,
The back story is very helpful. You don't sound any different than any other man who has responsibilities and stress from trying to support a family and give them all we husbands think they deserve. And then you turn around only to find that all the effort you put into trying to provide financial security for the people that you love the most is all for naught. That you lost your wife and partner in the process. My best friend woke up to that reality just a few months ago. His divorce should be final any day. You and your spouse sound like you have/had a great partnership in your joint decisions about moving, business, etc.

TheRoad,
Your comments about all the dastardly things going on between lovers really touches a nerve that says why would I try to recover her and not go right to divorce? Its rather amazing that anyone stays together in the face of such reality. Especially when Krazy gets on here and posts about how as a BS you will probably never get such an enthusiastic partner from your returning FWW. Wish I could have those memories deleted from my hard drive.

K, they are scary comments about what you might face in the long road of recovery which I am only 1 year down. But they are a reality for many BSs and you need to know what that future looks like too. Tough choices, no easy answers.

k,

One thing has been made crystal clear in my time here at MB. BH's who are poractive have a chance at R ... those that are conflict avoiders, LIKE YOURSELF, wind up living in limbo hell for way too long, and then loose their WW and family in the end.

ACTION WORKS, and inaction doesn't ... you seem intent on only following the advice of those like bigpicture who advocate the "wait and see" approach, while you trudge along in a worthless Plan A.

Before I spend any more time ... do you have any intention of taking any type of proactive action to improve your situation?

If not, then I'll just leave you to follow your own path.

Ok people,
Its finally getting through my thick skull. Plan B is imminent.

TheRoad, bigpicture, MyRevelation, DNU1 etc please stick with me.

I am unable to post until Sunday as WW around while she packs and moves out. Tonight a calm conversation hurt her as I explained boundaries e.g. not seeing her, not helping with lifts, not allowing her to visit, refusal to enter her new house. Is this right? well anyway its too late.

i will try to find time Sunday/Monday to construct the planB letter and submit draft for your comments.

thanks to you all for helping me build strength. Hope you think I am now on the right track.

K,
The major point to take away is that you are not doing anything wrongly (if thats a word). The timing of plan B is your choice. What was her reaction??

Be strong. You are doing everything just fine. Remember, she is the one who is having the A. She is committing adultery. She has choosen to end the marriage with her actions. She has had 5+ years where she could have come clean or approached you with the problems. Didn't happen.

This is just the natural progression that is necessary to protect yourself and to possibly recover to a new and better marriage in the future. Don't forget how long that road might be so settle yourself for the long haul. Best wishes.

I guess I confused about exactly where your head is ... you are way past D-Day, and you've been here at MB for a month, and you're still seeking advice from conflicting sources.

INDECISION IS NOT A PLAN!!!

It appears to me that its way past time for you to pick a plan and stick with it.

If it were me, I think I would be reviewing what I've done up to this point and try SOMETHING DIFFERENT, as your weak modified "carrot only" Plan A isn't working.

However, with your conflict avoiding personality, if you keep seeking out advice from other similar personalities, you will continue to choose INDECISION and INACTION and experience the predicably same results.

Just let us know which way you are leaning, and some of us can move on to other BH's who will heed our input, rather than making a call out to various posters with conflicting advice.

It's time for you to MAKE A CALL!!!

One it's a mistake to tip your hand to your WW.

Either you plan B or you don't plan B.

All you had to say is these are my new boundaries. That you will not go to OM's house or help her move out. Also good that you will no longer drive her around. Nothing more.

If you were not ready to plan B until she moved out you could of stopped being a door mat without warning WW about the imminent plan B.

You waited this long. You could of waited till Sunday to hand her a plan B letter.

Only you will know when and if you are on the right track. You have made a decision to move to plan B. That's it. Done. Move forward. Stick to Plan B.

You posted here, you read, you pondered, then you made your decision. Good for you. You have to look at yourself in the mirror tomorrow morning, not me.

Congrats on the decision. Now be strong. D.

Well my next post was going to be the plan B letter draft for your comments. However an interesting short dialogue between WW and me has made me make this post first.

Before stating that my responses to recent posts.

MyRev. OK how's my call below? I hope that I am now not being indecisive. I am going to plan B. Would like your remarks on my draft - could you?. Plan B is definate - will post tomorrow draft unless you think differently after reading below. Now I am not leaning - it is plan B. So yes please stick with me, at least for a few days, if you can. The call is plaB and do it strong.

big picture, I understand a long road is ahead if I choose that route. But I think that plan B is the way, whatever it may bring.

The Road- yes I blew it. Should have put it all together in one letter.i.e plan B

DNU1
you encoragement helps.

I was going to post a letter for your advice re plan B. I thought very short and to the point. I still think this is the correct action. But how should I deal with this ...

WW packed her stuff Thursday, moved out Friday am. I kept our son for Friday and we had fun time Saturday day time - went swimming, a McDonalds treat, look at the toy shops etc. He sems cool - as if its an adventure to move house!!. WW final action was to return Saturday night and collect the rest of our son's belongings, him and one of our cats, that is our son's favourite. When she arrived she burst into tears with the words 'I know I can't live without you'. I hope I was strong. I said that I will talk to you but you know the conditions I have laid out for any return - a full and complete break with OM, a plan to make a new marriage with a basis of HNHN, an understanding that there is much very hard work on both our parts ahead if that is what you wish. However you are still flitting from one man to another and it won't work. I can go, keep out of your life and maybe you can make it work with OM. Or you can try with me to create a new marriage following the principles in the book you have yet to read. How do you feel about that?

I had to think on the hoof. I wasn't prepared. I have provisionally agreed to talk Sunday.

Should I still give her a plan B letter tomorrow as planned. I think so and that is how I feel now.

I think refuse meeting and send this :

Dear XXX,
Following our recent discussions I write to state that we cannot create a new marriage without you completely finishing with OM which means no contact whatsoever with him and you permitting me to check this by whatever means available. Because of the pain I suffer I will now sever all contact with you. Please do not contact me unless there is a real emergency with our son. I have arranged that collection/drop off with our son will be carried out by sister-in-law, brother, childminder. You know that I still love you and wish to put our family back together but until you are certain I will remain unreachable or ignore your attempts to contact me.