Oh ottert...no, just no...

Slow down...this is not the way to go...

This sounds like you believe you are ENTITLED to help from Mel...The choice of whether or not to help you is HERS...the way you are going about this will not be fruitful for you...

You ask, not demand...humbleness in life will get you much further, imo...

Mrs. W

Hey, thanks Mrs. W

Sorry I didn't respond to you. I've been so busy fending off ML I couldn't get around to it. So I'll do it now.

Yours was one of the more reasonable responses I've received and actually directly answered my question about Independent Behavior and Radical Honesty. Thank you.

I agree that she should "cut it out" simply because it makes me uncomfortable - it's an LB for me. But we have lost so much goodwill that she can't see it that way right now. I haven't even discussed MB with her to see if she is open to the concepts here. I hope and pray she is.

For purposes of this discussion, I’ll adopt your assumption that it isn’t a PA. Regarding privacy--what is your end game? If you had access and total transparency, what would you find out? Perhaps you would learn that she still is conflicted by that old relationship and her choice to have married you. Would you point your finger and then say aha...you still do have feelings for him or would your reaction be something different?

It’s true that she has already crossed a line by emailing an old boyfriend. It was foolish, selfish, and disrespectful. She probably rationalizes it to herself under the guise of being cathartic. The bottom-line though is that it was self-serving and didn’t further the interests of your marriage.

That said, and this is just speculation on my part (as is the rest of my post)) but it sounds to me like she believes that you're the last person she can talk to about her feelings on this issue and you know what, you ought to be the first. How do you both get to the point where real communication is viably in place?

Ottert...This will not end well for you...Stop it...Slow down, breathe...You are going on the attack, unnecessarily...You may not be able to see it, but I sure can...

From me to you: I would apologize. I understand that your emotions are running high because you are heavily invested in your situation, (well, duh, right?) but cool it, okay?

Mrs. W

I didn't think I was demanding. My apologies to you and Melody. It was an appeal (How about it?) for her not to abandon my thread. How can I say it any plainer?: I want to hear what she has to say. But I'd like the option of discussing it, disagreeing (gasp!) even, and asking for clarification.

Why is that wrong? Is this a discussion forum or not?

BTW, it took a great deal of humility just for me to come here and lay out my problem. I'm hurting and searching for ideas. I would think veterans of this board would understand that a newbie would need to wrangle with some of this.

Again, I didn't mean to make demands. Forgive me.

I gotcha ottert...Just bear in mind that you are the one here looking for answers...the one who wants something that others have...My North Georgia mountain born and raised momma always taught me that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...

I hear an argumentative tone to your posts, and I wonder if that is what your wife hears? Your posts have almost a "Yeah, yeah, yeah sure YOU may think that, but I know MORE!" quality to them...Just guessin', but you aren't in sales, are ya? I'm gonna guess engineer or maybe IT...am I close?

Mrs. W

Brix

Now this is helpful stuff and presents some meaningful questions. Your analysis is dead-on.

We have identified many of the problems in our marriage that led to our lack of communication and her feeling that she couldn't discuss her feelings with me. She has admitted to resenting and then hating me for up to three years before this incident. As I stated in my OP, our marriage was sick and a lot of garbage spewed out when this happened. At the time of my confrontation (D-day?), I admitted to many of my failures as a husband that would lead her to do this behind my back and asked for her forgiveness.

We have not met each other's ENs for many years and that is really the problem. Both our love banks were in the red.

As for my reaction to finding out her true feelings, that has already happened. During one counseling session I said "I think you still have a place in your heart for him." My W said "Well, of course. We were engaged and he was a huge part of my life for three years." She has since tried to clarify that to mean she doesn't hate him and that it's hard to just forget totally someone who you were with for that long. She has insisted over and over that she has no romantic feelings for him and has never regretted breaking up with him and marrying me.

otter, I did tell you what I had to say and you seemed to think that posters here were "projecting their own situations" on you and dismissed the advice you got. And like you told the folks who were trying to help you, "WHOA!" If you are going to be rude and argumentative to folks who are trying to help you, you aren't going to get much help. We don't have to help you at all.

Discussion is fine, but DISMISSAL and rudeness to folks who are trying to help when you ask for help is not going to take you very far. I already know that I don't have the patience to deal with this.

Mr. W & I talked about your situation this morning, as a matter of fact, ottert.

Now see, he said [and bear in mind that he is the BS - or FBS, as he refers to himself here], that he personally wouldn't mind at all if I had a journal and he wouldn't care to read it...BUT [big BUT] the REASON he feels that way is BECAUSE of what I said to him next, which was: "Honey, if I did have a journal, there would never be anything in it that I wouldn't be talking to you about anyway - which is probably one of the reasons that I don't feel the need to journal, btw."

A journal is where you keep your innermost thoughts and dreams, etc...I WANT Mr. W to know ALL of those about me...It is IMPORTANT to me that he knows, EVEN if some of those thoughts are negative, because THAT is what intimacy is...It is sharing the good, the bad and the ugly with someone else...Having someone know you as well as you know yourself...There is so much comfort in having that...

And I am SAFE to share anything with Mr. W and vice versa...There is a real team spirit to our marriage now...It is not an adversarial relationship...That is where the gold is...

Mrs. W

Continuing...My concern is that your wife wants SECRECY from you...not privacy...that is the problem...and that is why I think there is more to your situation than meets the eye, and I think you will have to snoop to find out...

Mrs. W

Hah! Sales it is, for 18 years.

I do like to "discuss" things. I have a habit of not taking anything anyone says at face value. I am willing to listen and I am teachable. But it takes me time to trust people, evaluate the worth of their argument, and sort things out. In the meantime, it probably sounds like I'm arguing with you as I sort it out. I think about it and try to use some judgment and decide if it's worth hearing. It's not "I know better than you. You can't teach me anything", though I suppose it could come across that way.

I have an aversion, maybe even a phobia, of being gullible and believing things the first time I hear them. Maybe I'm distrustful. I like to call it discernment.

Yes, she does hear "argumentative." I think I have over the years developed this tone/attitude due to what I have perceived as a lack of respect. Most men respond to a lack of respect by shutting down or lashing out. Sadly, I've done both.

Wow, that is the relationship I am dreaming of. It just seems so impossible right now. Was there ever a time when you didn't think you would get to this point?

Honestly, the former fiancé is probably always going to have a place in her heart. That doesn't necessarily mean that it diminishes her love for you or degrades the marriage. It is what it is and we all have our personal histories.

The big caveat of course is that a slippery slope exists where mild thoughts turn into unhealthy obsession and then damaging action. You really do have to know your wife well to feel secure enough to trust. The email occurrence rightfully did damage your trust.

As to verification, I think you should have access to her email account but personally, I would refrain from pushing for access to her journal. That's squeezing her too hard--leaving no sanctuary for her individual thoughts. She needs a safe harbor and if she finds it in her journal so be it. You're inevitably going to have to trust somewhere so why not start there.

I apologize to all. Yes, my emotions are running high. They are still raw and on the razor's edge. I beg for your patience as I try to cool down.

Deep breath.....

Well, I'll be...

Then DUDE, YOU of all people ought to understand why "argumentative" doesn't work! Ever get into a situation like that WITH an engineer/lawyer type? It is the KISS of DEATH, huh? You know never ever to put them into a position of "this is the ONLY way, and it MUST be today"...it is a sure fire way to lose the deal..."Walk past your close" so to speak...So you do what? Show them why what you are peddling is the BEST, in a logical and non-threatening way, right? A way where it becomes THEIR idea!!! KWIM?

Now that would likely work with your wife, IF she had nothing to hide...My fear is that she DOES have something to hide...Isn't that what you are thinking? What do you plan to do about that?

Mrs. W

This is just so hard for me to accept. What about "forsaking all others"? Forsaking means mentally, emotionally, physically. I have old girlfriends and they no longer "have a place in my heart." If they did, I would pray and do whatever I could to rid my heart of those thoughts and feelings.


This is the crux of the matter. She acts as if she has not broken my trust and has no responsibility to rebuild what wasn't broken.


You know, if she said she didn't care if I looked at them and would let me if I asked, I probably wouldn't want to. If she was more open and willing to share her innermost thoughts with me, I would want to give her more space. It's the demand for "privacy", what I call secrecy, that makes me distrust her. I want to be the one she shares her heart with. She shared more affection, kind words, and emotion with her ex in those emails than she has with me in years.

HA! Um, yeah, like when I was sneaking around, hiding & lying my butt off while having an affair!!! You know, defending "my right to privacy to the death"! As in, "How DARE you check my email or cell phone? You are so controlling! I am an adult and have a right to have things that are just my own! HMMPH!"

See? I've been where your wife is pretty much, huh?

Mrs. W

Okay...this "place in the heart" stuff is just another way of saying "Lovebank Account"...We ALL have a Lovebank account opened for EVERYONE that we meet...Now, with no contact, those accounts lay dormant and are not thought of...Contact, however, reopens them for business...So ANY old boyfriend or girlfriend for both of you STILL has an account and always will...As long as no contact is maintained though, none of those accounts are a threat to your marriage...Make sense?

Mrs. W

For some reason, I'm able to do this in my work life. I can keep my mouth shut, show patience, give them plenty of time to make up their mind. But with my wife...man she brings out the fighter in me. It's like we're battling for supremacy in our relationship. Big generality here, and I'm opening myself up to criticism as a chauvinist, but most men don't want their wives to be the leader and dominate the marriage. She will not be led.


Good question. I don't know. That's why I'm here asking for advice, right? I can't figure it out myself.

I am hoping that with our new counselor we can have a safe place to open up that can of worms. In this past 13 months, many things have been uncovered that needed to see the light of day. Maybe there is more. We'll see.

Yes, it does make sense. Also, could it be that even if there is no contact, an empty love bank will lead one to reopen that account with the ex in their mind?