Gotta go. I'll be back later.

Well there's a difference in significance between a fiance and a boy/girl friend. They were on the formal path to marriage. Look you can't control her thoughts and feelings but if she is conducting herself with integrity in the marriage then you can (together) both work on your feelings regarding that issue. That goes back to being able to viably communicate. It's something to work on.

Well that's a problem and is either indicative of poor joint communication or she's covering up for an active affair.
The initmacy in her email is something you want with her. That's laudable but it is distinct from verification. The one thing you know for certain about a journal is that it is a solitary act that doesn't involve communicating w/ another OM. There are more fruitful less antagonistic mediums to check up on her--cell phone records, email, snail mail, texting etc.,sort of a cost benefit analysis.

Yes, I would think so...Wayward minds like to live in a fantasy world...build up romantic baloney crud in their heads while doing major mental gymnastics to rewrite marital history to justify them...

When you lovebust her by making demands and taking it to an adversarial place you help her with her rationalizations and justifications, btw...

I asked you about your plan because you seem resistant to snooping to find out for yourself...My advice is to snoop...What do you think about that?

If she is in an affair of course she is resistant to being led, btw...Rebellion isn't conducive to accepting headship...lol...[understatement?]

Read this link by Mortarman and see what you think~~~> Roles of Husbands & Wives

Mrs. W

Actually, I have done a lot of snooping, just not to the extent supported on this forum, like keyloggers, P.I.s, etc. I regularly check her emails and cell phone records and I am aware of her whereabouts pretty much 24/7. I've described in an earlier post how I've showed up at her work and so forth. I know waywards can be incredibly creative in finding ways to cheat, but honestly it would be extremely difficult to see when she would have the time to do it. I know where she is at all times and she has rarely been away from me or our kids. The only real possibility would be a separate email account I'm not aware of that she accesses while at work. I have been hyper-vigilant about where she is, who she is with and for how long. In fact, that is what she is resisting. My head is not in the sand...at least I don't think it is. Lots of you disagree, I know.


I truly don't believe there is a current affair. She definitely is and has been in the state of mind conducive to having one. I have conceded that the email situation was an EA, albeit short-lived and borderline, IMO.

Now, rebellion, that is a different story. She has been in full-on rebellion to me throughout this ordeal. Defiant. Unrepentant. Stubborn. This started years ago with her ENs not being met, then resentment, then contempt, then hatred. She has confessed these as sins, but hasn't truly repented since she treats me the same.


Read a few pages of the Mortarman thread. Looks really good and I'll eventually read it all. I am a believer in the traditional Christian roles in marriage. My wife is too, but she has struggled with submission our entire marriage. I'm sure my leadership (lack of?) has had a lot to do with that. She has gone through the motions of putting herself under my headship, but it is obvious to me she is not submissive from the heart, which is where it has to come from.

She had a controlling, domineering mother and I believe she has vowed never to be controlled like that ever again. I'm suffering from the sins of her mom.

Mortarman is right that this goes back to the fall and the curse on men and women. We have been at war over who will lead ever since.

Ottert...

Do you understand that the reason that people on this forum are recommending keyloggers, PIs and voice activated recorders is because those are the MOST EFFECTIVE tools?

I would strongly suggest that you put a keylogger on her computer, and "INSPECT WHAT YOU EXPECT"...Perhaps a digital voice activated recorder in her car [there is always a possibility of the dreaded "affairullar phone"]...She has given you VERY GOOD REASON not to trust her...Trusting her without her earning it after what she has done would not be very wise of you...Wouldn't you agree?

What do you say?

Mrs. W

Mrs. W

Well, the only computer she uses regularly is at her work. I can't sneak in and put something on her computer. I'd be trespassing and breaking who knows how many other laws. She does use the one at home, but rarely. I have a voice activated recorder. Do you put in and turn it one right before she goes somewhere or what? I'll think about that one. I'm not afraid of what I'll find out; more afraid of what will happen to our relationship if she's innocent and finds out I did this.

I'd still put that keylogger on the home computer...you just never know...

And I'd run to Radio Shack and buy a VOICE ACTIVATED digital recorder...I'll see if Mr. W can swing by later tonight and advise you in the ways of concealing it best - he is working late tonight though...others may be able to offer you more regarding that before then...

As far as getting caught: DON'T!

Mrs. W

Mrs. W

Just reading back over the thread and this post of yours stuck out. Amazing. It's like your channeling my W! Practically those exact words have come out of her mouth. I have heard that I am "controlling" until I want to throw up. Also, "I am not your child! I have a life apart from making you happy and bowing to your will! I have a right to time that is just my own where I don't have to account for every minute! Leave me alone!"

I have examined her life with a fine tooth comb for 13 months now. As I've said, it would be difficult for her to carry on an A, particularly a PA, without me knowing it. Truthfully, my concern is that her attitude is going to lead to a bona fide PA. I know, I know. She has already done it. But there is a difference between what she did and having sex/becoming emotionally involved with another man long term. Because of her rebellious and uncaring attitude, I am consumed with the fear that the real thing is going to happen. It's a horrible way to live. My mind and heart can't rest because they don't trust the one I love.

Yes, I know, Ottert, and that SHOULD scare you...You are RIGHT to be alarmed...Your wife's behavior is incredibly wayward...See, there is pretty much a WW script and that is what others are seeing as well - she's not unique, nor was I...very, very common...That is the reason people have been trying to help you by telling you to snoop like crazy, using keyloggers, P.I.'s and everything else out there that is available...It's not paranoia that is driving all of us to tell you that, but rather, experience...People here care, and want very much for your marriage to not only survive, but thrive...

Mrs. W

Have you met any of her EN's ?

Ottert,

I caught up on your thread this AM and I know this is frustrating for you. I also saw your verbal jousts with Melody. I understand the feelings of wanting to "fix" this problem and have things return to the way you want them. Please don't take this the wrong way, but will you examine the below statment you made earlier. Bold portions my doing.


Read a few pages of the Mortarman thread. Looks really good and I'll eventually read it all. I am a believer in the traditional Christian roles in marriage. My wife is too, but she has struggled with submission our entire marriage. I'm sure my leadership (lack of?) has had a lot to do with that. She has gone through the motions of putting herself under my headship, but it is obvious to me she is not submissive from the heart, which is where it has to come from.

We have a saying in the Navy, "You can't lead if no one wants to follow."

My growth in personal and professional leadership only came when I began to understand that leadership is embodied in service. Those of us in leadership positions be they in the military or in the home are entrusted with that leadership in order to serve others. We cannot demand, or get frustrated with others because they are refusing to follow our lead.

If others refuse, or complain about our leadership it is not their problem, it is usually a failure of our leadership. Now dealing with a WS poses tremendous leadership challenges, I understand.
Be patient, loving and a faithful and good servant leader and I think you'll find the answers you seek.

I hope you take this in the way it was meant, a hopefully constructive comment from someone concerned with your situation and welfare.

Any? Well, yeah, I think I've met some of them. Obviously not all of them and not to my W's satisfaction. In an earlier post I mentioned that, on the day of the confrontation about the emails, I confessed to her my failure to meet her needs and be the husband God commands me to be and that she desires. We worked on EN's many years ago when our relationship was better. As I said earlier, we read HNHN about 15 years ago. But we didn't understand completely then and we hadn't hurt each other as much at that time. The years rolled by and we grew more distant, didn't know how to bridge the gap, then stopped trying to bridge the gap.

Neither of our needs were being met for a long time. She responded by growing resentful then bitter. That was the state of our marriage when the **** hit the fan with her email fling. In our discussions and counseling she has conceded that she had a "fairy tale" expectation that I would meet her every need and love her with a perfect love and never let her down. That is an impossible standard for anyone to meet.

So I'm aware of my deficiencies and failures and have asked her forgiveness for them. I have taken numerous steps to correct these. Have I performed perfectly? No. But I will look any one in the eye and say that I am trying with all my might to overcome the hurt and pain of rejection and betrayal and love my W unconditionally. It is the hardest thing I've ever tried to do.

However, I'm also aware of the areas in which I have been a very good husband and father. I have letters from my W after 14 years of marriage and 3 kids in which she praises me for making her feel loved and cherished, for trying hard to ease her burden of being a SAHM, for working hard to provide for us so she can be at home with them. The crushing blow of this betrayal (though nothing near what many on this board have experienced) has brought me low and at times has made me feel like a total failure. But I cling to the knowledge that I have done some things right and that in my heart I want to be a servant leader, to give myself up for W and my kids and to be deserving of their respect.

Sickwithworry

I appreciate your gentle but firm challenge to man up and be a servant leader. I know I have much to learn about it and far to go in this area.

If you examine my post which you quoted you will see this:


So I understand that I have not for the entire 21 years of our marriage been the leader I should have been and want to be. I have been taking and continue to take measures to correct this.

There is more to the dynamic than that, however. I believe I have been a good leader at times and my W has been a poor follower at times. As I mentioned in the post above, I have letters and notes from W praising me for being "the best daddy and husband in the world"; "I'm happier and more fulfilled than I've ever been"; "Thank you for putting us as priority over the heavy responsibility, stress and instability you get in exchange...that's such an act of love that tends to get overlooked."

It may be off-putting for me to quote this stuff because it may seem I'm doing it just to make myself look good. I appreciate your indulgence. I only do it in response to your post, because it seems you think I have no clue how to be a servant and sacrifice for my family.

Regardless of what kind of leader I am, nothing justifies what she did in this situation. Just like I cannot justify betraying her because she doesn't meet my needs and doesn't submit perfectly, neither can she just because I'm not the perfect godly leader she expected. She has yet to own that.

Regardless of what kind of leader I am, nothing justifies what she did in this situation. Just like I cannot justify betraying her because she doesn't meet my needs and doesn't submit perfectly, neither can she just because I'm not the perfect godly leader she expected. She has yet to own that.

I agree entirely.

because it seems you think I have no clue how to be a servant and sacrifice for my family.

Not at all and I apologize if I came off that way. Ask for the wisdom of Solomon and for patience. I wish I had earler myself...

Ok, thanks. Sorry for my knee-jerk defensiveness, too. I've got a hair trigger these days. I'm working on that. Being dishonored, disrespected, betrayed and humiliated by your W tends to give you a complex...like everybody's out to tear me down and show me what a failure I've been.

Good suggestion on asking for Solomon's wisdom. Coincidentally, I started this month reading one Proverb a day in addition to my other Bible reading. I haven't done that in a few years. Today, of course, is the 31st and you know what that means. I had to read Proverbs 31. It is very tempting to focus on what my W needs to be doing and what she isn't doing to be the kind of woman described there. I want the peace that comes from being able to say like verse 11,

"The heart of her husband trusts in her..."

I thought I'd share some positive news.

Earlier this week W volunteered some information about a conversation she had on her cell phone while she was at work. She got a voice mail from our kids' youth pastor and later called him back on his cell phone. She had to have a fairly long conversation with him about a church event.

She said, calmly, kindly and with no sarcasm or surliness, "I just wanted you to know who I was talking to in case you saw a strange number on my phone you didn't recognize." I hugged her and thanked her for coming to me with that information.

Also, I decided to ask her directly if she had set up any other email accounts. It was tense for a second, because in past months this question would have sent her into orbit for me making a "false accusation." She closed her eyes for a second, took a deep breath, and said "I absolutely have not. I don't have a need to have another account. I don't want or need to have any private conversations with any one."

There was no argument and we were nice to each other the rest of the day.

Not at all and I apologize if I came off that way. Ask for the wisdom of Solomon and for patience. I wish I had earler myself...


Good suggestion on asking for Solomon's wisdom. Coincidentally, I started this month reading one Proverb a day in addition to my other Bible reading. I haven't done that in a few years.

I don't believe it's coincidence here. Listen to Him, be patient. He will tell you what to do and will use others to speak to you. Unfortunately for us and our feeble minds, we want it in our time, he delivers in his.

I never really found peace until I was praying one morning when i awoke around 4AM. I was trying to go back to sleep, and when i did had a series of very vivid dreams.

Later a message came very loudly and clearly in my mind. It was, "Let her go." Whatever question or objection I posed the message came again and agin, there was no arguing with it. It was definitive.

I don't know what the ultimate resolution to my situation is going to be, I am in the process of talking to a lawyer about filing for D. But i do know this; that message, and when i started to follow it, brought me a lot of peace.

Proverbs is one of my favorite books of the Bible. I am also very fond of the book of John.

Peace.