Chewie,

Are you still in contact with the other woman (the homewrecker hag)? Were you in contact with her in the last few weeks for some reason?

I find it hard to believe that out of the blue, after ending all contact with her, that you sent her that picture. It just does NOT add up to me.

You got busted for the picture, but are you hiding the fact that you have had other recent contacts with her your wife does not know about???

And I would like to know FROM YOU RIGHT NOW how this HAG feels about you at this time:


1. Does the HAG want you back?

2. Does this HAG miss you?

3. Had the HAG moved on with another man?

4. Is this HAG waiting for you?

5. Is the HAG lonely without you?

6. Are you lying to your wife and still talking with the HAG?

7. Does the HAG want to see how you are doing?

8. Does this HAG still have feelings for you?


WE NEED TO KNOW THIS NOW.

Mark:

Lack of empathy - now that I get. And you're right. To do what I did, knowing how much pain it could cause the people I say I care about most, shows a complete lack of ability to really consider their feelings and act accordingly. It was more than just a failure to protect my wife, it was a deliberate act that directly attacked her. It may also have led to the destruction of the framework that my children all count upon for security.

So then we are back to "why"? I was selfish. I was looking for a quick and easy fix to get a little taste of the feeling I got from the affair. I have never understand destructive addictions, and have found myself at times becoming angry and dismissive of alcoholics and drug addicts who keep going back again and again. But I guess this is the same thing. "Let's just try to get that feeling one more time, just for a minute, just this once." So my drug is different, but at the core it's all the same. A destructive habit which may give a very short term high but over the long term causes nothing but destruction to myself and lots of people around me.

I tried to watch the video, but couldn't get it to go. I'll try again.

B:

I forget that for every person who posts something there are potentially hosts of folks just "lurking".

I've never been a blogger, and I rarely send e-mails that just sort of go on about how my day is going or what I'm feeling. I don't usually even have conversations like that, beyond saying that I'm "fine", and that my day is "fine". Sort of like a New Zealand summer weather forecast, for those of you who get the reference. So the idea of just rambling on about those things on a post to who knows what audience is sort of beyond my comprehension. I'm used to focused interactions - define the issue, get it resolved, move on. But I'll take that into account. Thanks.

Stellakat:

I'm going to go against my better judgement for a moment and respond to you based upon emotion. And it's this - I have no obligation to answer angry and demanding questions from anyone except my wife. I don't know if this is your usual method of interacting on MB, but if so I suspect you alienate more people than you assist (if indeed assistance rather than just expressing anger is your goal).

Having said that, I will respond. I have no idea how my former AP is feeling about me, whether she has moved on with another man, etc., etc. And no, I have not continued to be in contact with her.

It's been a pleasure having a conversation with you. Good night.

And that was exactly my point. I'm not sure if you misunderstood my post, so I thought I would clarify. Hope all is good in your world BK.

This is really a whole list of things most of which can be discounted completely.

Why?

I was selfish.
I thought I could get away with it.
I wasn't considering Chrys's feelings when I did it.
I'm addicted to the feeling I get from OW.

All right answers that will never lead to recovery. They are just statements of facts.

More important is WHAT...

What?

What will you do to make sure this never happens again; not merely by an act of will but because you have a plan of protection in place that makes it impossible without self destruction?

What are you going to do NOW to try to make it up to your wife? (You will never really be able to make it up to her but you must do all you can to try)

What are you willing to sacrifice in order to make your marriage one that your wife (and you) deserve?

What are you willing to DO that will lead to a fully recovered, both happy and in love, Love Banks overflowing, can't wait to be alone together, nothing missing from the relationship...marriage?

As for the video. You need a recent Flash Player installed and enabled in order to make it work. If your security measures prevent the Flash Player utility from running it won't fire up.

If you can't get it to work, buy one. They're like 10 bucks...

What Dr Harley books have you read?

Mark

I would add, as your wife has requested, returning to church and being involved in a mens group.


Have you begun following through with any of these actions??

Chewie,

A polygraph has been mentioned many times in your thread, and I've yet to see you address it. I, for one, would like an answer to this question...

Are you willing to take a polygraph?

Mrs. W

I have to tell you Chewie. As a BS who is about the same amount of time from D-Day as you and your wife, I have found this thread very difficult.

Please believe me when I tell you that I feel no anger or malice towards you at all. That said, I am amazed at your defensiveness and your haughtiness.

If my H does ANYTHING resembling what you have done, our marriage will be OVER. Not because I don't love him, not because I don't want it to work out. Because I don't want to be hurt by him anymore. Because at that point MY love for HIM would be hurting ME.

I think you desperately need to find a WAY to become an enpathetic man. You need to find a way to make your WIFE the more important person. More important than yourself.

I am not sure that empathy can be taught or learned. But I really and truly wish you luck. You seem to need it. You do not seem to WANT to be that kind of person unless you are dragged kicking and screaming.

My H does indeed have the same kind of empathy problems that you have. I am also indeed afraid that he WILL do something similar to what you have done.

It is devastating to a BS to find out that their WS is capable of such callous behavior.

I am telling you this so that you can see how badly ANOTHER BS would feel in the same circumstance.

Flick:

I have no idea why you used to be "Fatty", and why you, or someone, changed it.
And I also can't imagine why anyone would care about my posting schedule, but for what it's worth, I get home from work about 7 pm Pacific Standard Time (8 hours behind GMT, since I have no idea where anyone besides you lives and what time zone they are in), turn on my computer, and review the posts since last night. I don't respond to any of them immediately I just read and digest them and what I think. After dinner I write out responses. Then I move on to work - phone calls, paperwork, et al, that doesn't get done during the day. Before I go to bed I again review the posts and respond to any that I feel I should. So, for those who wonder, that's why there is not a steady stream of posts throughout the day.
I am not worried about the angry posts, just surprised at the tone of people who I have never met and, in most cases, never communicated with before. I've decided that most of the angry ones don't need a response, since they rarely say anything useful. But when I'm tired and cranky, someone may punch just the right button and I'll respond. For the most part, life is too short to fight with people, especially those I don't even know.
As to what's going on in my head - I spent a lot of today thinking about empathy. I don't believe it is possible to truly know or feel what someone else is feeling, and it's a bit arrogant to think one can. But it is possible to understand what effects my choices can have on someone else, to think about those choices and effects ahead of time, and to choose to be someone who sows safety and happiness rather than insecurity and sadness. That's especially true for the people I love and for whom I am responsible.
My wife and I have knocked around ideas about EPs. My intention will be to come up with a written list this weekend. In the meantime, the new ones I am following this week are that I will be home by 7pm each night and that I will open my office e-mail only from home. Chrys already has access to my office e-mail from home 24/7, has access to my cel phone records, and has my pager. I am on call tomorrow night for the hospital where the former AP works, and the rule that I have been following all along is that, even if I get called to see a patient early in the evening I do not go in until after 8 pm, when she would be off work and gone if she were working that day.
I have asked Chrys if she wants to schedule more sessions with the Harleys and she is considering it.

Mark:

So it seems there are "why" people and there are "what" people. To some extent, it seems to be a gender divide. I have always been more of a "what" person than a "why" person, since I think a lot of life doesn't have a "why".
So as the the what's - I talked about some of the new EPs in my note to Flick. And I suspect there will be more by the end of the weekend. This, like the rest of life, is a work in progress. As you say, there is nothing I can do that can truly make up for what I have done. But I need to continue to build a set of protections that make her feel safe and loved again.
I downloaded the new Flash Player and couldn't get it work, so I may have to cough up the 9.95.
I have read the Love Busters series, and Chrys and I have worked through that together.

You still run the chance of running into her no matter WHAT shift you work at, if you are on call and go rushing into the hospital.

tst:

You can see my other posts this pm for some of the answers. I asked my wife if she wants to go to the MB weekend, and she said she would consider it. I've always wanted to go to Minnesota (or is it Wisconsin) in March.
We had started attending a church again before the latest incident.
Chrys and I have discussed your other proposals, and those discussions are not done. When they are, I'll post the decisions.

Hang in there. When a WS first posts, there are lots of angry or very blunt responses.

Hope you will keep posting and reading here. Personally I think that you ARE getting it. It just takes time.

Mrs. W:

See my post to tst

WH2LE:

I have talked about empathy in my post to Flick. I'm not sure anyone has anyone called me haughty before. If it's work your time, I'd be interested in knowing why I come across that way.

GREAT that you have this INSIGHT!!

Chewie,

Don't bother with the video for now. We'll try to figure that one out later.

We've already established that you and I are both what kind of guys instead of why types.

But another question that comes up is HOW...

As in how dd you convince yourself that this latest email contact was right or even OK? How did you arrive at the conclusion that your wife would be alright with it?

If you combine some of the answers to "How" with some of the answers to "What" you can come up with a viable solution that will prevent you from ever doing anything like that or the EA ever again.

The why answers are things you tell yourself.

The what answers are what you can do to short circuit the how.

Ultimately you have to figure out how you were able to have an affair to begin with. It is at that point you can begin to address the why...

Are you following my logic here? If not, you aren't alone. Sometimes I don't get myself.

You've said you were acting selfishly. And that is the truth. You were operating from the position of Taker according to Dr Harley's description and your Taker wants to make yourself happy even at the expense of your wife.

So how did you get into such an extreme "Taker" mode?

Too many hours at work can take away time we need together in order to maintain a relationship properly. Too much time apart can make it difficult to empathize with each other. Lots of things can contribute a a disconnection and cause us to end up in a state of Withdrawal. At that point we are pure Taker and don't even want to accept anything from our spouse. We want to Take were the taking is easy and that often ends up being at work.

The root cause of these things is what needs to be fixed in your marriage ultimately. But until the repairs can be made you have to have a what for every how. These are EPs. What will I do to prevent me from doing it how I did it? What can I do to assure my wife that no matter what state I am in or what condition our marriage is in I can not get to that point again?

It might be true that real empathy is impossible in that you cannot truly FEEL what another person FEELS or THINK what they THINK. But you can imagine how it feels to hurt and to be in pain. You understand what it means to feel afraid unless you're omnipotent, which I am guessing you are not. Now try to imagine that the source of that pain and anguish, the one causing it, is the one you love more than any other person on Earth, the person who made a vow before witnesses and before God to honor, cherish and protect you all the days of your life. That is the feeling of a BS when they find out.

And in your case your wife had begun to trust you once more. You seemed to be doing so many things right. She allowed you back into her heart once more and felt safe knowing that you were protecting her.

The email she found blew all of her trust away. Her sense of safety was gone in an instant. At that moment it was as if you had not only lied but that you laughed as you stabbed her once more for good measure.

That, my dear Chewie, is empathy, to know and to understand the pain you have caused and inflicted by a callous act on your wife...

Not once, but twice. The second KNOWING that you were doing it.

How did you get THERE?

WHAT can you do to make sure you never go there again?

You have to realize by now that the jury is still out as to whether or not you will get another chance at recovery. You might have lost her for real and for good.

To hurt someone and take away their hope, then to give them comfort and solace till they relax their guard and to then inflict even more pain and remove their hope once more is the hallmark of torture. It should be the farthest it can get from a marriage....

Mark

Chewie, you asked what you're missing.

You're missing how devastating this was to Chrys. That's all. My H asked me to tell him if I even see the OM's car in the distance. That's how fragile it all is for the BS. That's all you need to get.