I'll try to be brief, but it will be tough.

Last night I wrote down some thoughts on some communication issues we seem to be having, my feelings, and other items (trying very hard not to be derogatory) so that we could talk when he got home. I emailed the document to him to consider on the drive home so he would be ready to discuss. He was game.

What started as a productive conversation quickly turned into hurt feelings and tears, and then silent frustration, going to sleep without resolving the issue. This seems to be a pattern for us.

He is not an emotional guy. It is a challenge for him to be vocal about his feelings for me. After 13 years, I know he loves me and he tries to express it. But he is very stuck in routine, and tends to react with LB when anything interferes.

He agreed with the concepts I shared until I used an example: he comes to bed and finds folded clothes on the bed. He moves them to the floor so he can go to bed. I suggested it would be helpful if he considered the idea of putting them away instead of throwing them with the pile of clothes I am giving away the next day, making me have to go through and sort and refold. He said his initial thought when he sees the clothes is "crap. there's clothes on the bed. I need to go read for 20 minutes so I can wind down and sleep". I told him that hurt my feelings because it never entered his mind to be thankful that his clothes were clean and pressed and folded for him to wear the next day, only that he was annoyed it was in his way. He got angry, saying it was not my place to judge his feelings. They were his feelings and were unrelated to me. I was trying to explain that the feelings took no consideration for how the clothes got there and were inconsiderate. I was trying to make the point that his independent behavior was a result of his thought patterns, considering only himself and his routines and not others in the household and their efforts to make his life better.

I did no better explaining my frustration to him than I am doing to you.

Here's my point-maybe I'm reading things into what he says, but it seems as though his thought association indicates a lack of respect and consideration for me specifically. If I cook dinner, his first thought is he didn't want to eat past 6 because he's trying to stick to an eating plan. If I put on lingerie and come in with a smile, it's messing up his plan to be in bed asleep by 8, even if I did it in plenty of time to allow sleep and even offer...assistance...with no strings attached so he can sleep quickly.

If the first thing he thinks of in relation to what I do in his life is irritation at the interruption, is this his own personal emotions that are not my business? I feel that they affect his reactions, which is one of our biggest problems. It hurts my feelings to be thought of as in the way when the actions are from my heart to make him happy. I don't feel there is anything to interpret, that any joe on the street would hear his initial thoughts and conclude that he doesn't value having a partner who does the things I do. If that's the case, how can it be just in my head?

It infuriates him that I can't seem to just let him have those thoughts and feelings and not take it personally. The discussion escalates to personal jabs on his end, tears on my end and then I just shut down, giving up on getting my needs met. We go to sleep not speaking.

I am more than willing to accept if I am wrong. I guess I just need help retraining my brain to not be offended that he thinks so little of me with his reflex thoughts. Out of a man's heart flows everything else. If this is what he thinks, what's in his heart?

Thank you for your help.

Now you want to change his THOUGHTS?

If what you do is an irritation to him, (I'll say it again) STOP DOING THEM. If it ticks you off that he moves the clothes from the bed to the floor, don't put the clothes on the bed to begin with. If I'm not putting the clothes away, I leave them folded on top of the dryer. Find another place to put them. Or just leave them in the hamper. Whatever it takes for you both to stop being irritated.

If he wants to eat by six and you can't have dinner ready by then, let him fix it. If you quit harping on him and resenting his thoughts, he'd probably want to have sex with you, but right now I'm sure he sees it as another thing he can't do well enough to please you.



He's spot on with that one. You're stewing in resentment because he, as a MAN, sees a pile of clothes in his way and he SOLVES HIS PROBLEM by moving them. You, as a WOMAN, wishes he would see the pile of clothes and think, aw, my sweetie washed my clothes for me, I love her so much for that. But the problem is, he's not a WOMAN, he doesn't think like that!

Seriously, you want appreciation for washing his clothes? Stop washing them for a while. Right now he takes it for granted. There is no appreciation for things that you expect.

That's exactly what I did, and what we're trying to tell you. It's not him, it's you. You can't MAKE him want to appreciate your effort, you can't MAKE him suddenly think that he owes you home duty when he gets off work. You can't change him.

You CAN stop what irritates you. You can stop doing anything you do in the hopes that it will stoke a fire of compassion and empathy in your H's mind. That's his to own.

What you can do is change how you approach your relationship.

I totally get your point. My H is the exact same way. Many men grow up expecting to be taken care of. Many men simply don't have the homemaker gene, or even the compassion gene.

Your only solution is live the life you need to live, and if he comes on board great; if he doesn't you explain to him what you're not getting and tell him you'll have to find it some way, and hopefully it will be from him.

But continuing to sacrifice for him does not make him respect you or see your side.

I asked my H for help; he refused. So I stopped washing his clothes. When he finally ran out of clothes, he got mad; I calmly said I asked you for help and you said you couldn't. So I had to get rid of something to lessen my load, and your clothes don't have an impact on me. He said he didn't remember me asking him for help (we were sitting face to face in a restaurant), but after that he got off the couch and started doing little things here and there; I started washing his clothes again. But every time he slacks off, so do I - with his clothes. That is my non-resentment solution.

I'm sorry, but you just don't understand. Not in this post or my other post. I'm sure you and my H would get along famously.

Your post was not helpful in any way, and borderline offensive. He doesn't want to have sex with me because I'm hard to please? And how do you know this? If all you have to say is to beat me up further when I am clearly in an emotional state, please don't bother. I'm looking for help, not to have my already fragile self esteem knocked down another notch.

Our relationship is close. We are the envy of everyone we know. The reason his thought pattern and resulting responses is an issue for me is because it does not jive with the status of our marriage. It's not just me. If you love someone and your needs are being met, it's not a natural process to associate them with an intrusion on your schedule or routine. It indicates there is something going on underneath that is not being addressed.

I came here not because we are in distress, but to keep us from getting there. If his mind associates me with an interruption of his life when otherwise we are close and very much in love, I want to understand why.

I hoped that someone who thinks the way he does would respond, explaining to me what's going on under the surface. Whether or not I should worry that our marriage isn't what I think it is. My intentions are to make our relationship better than it is now, and overcome any doubt that might remain after 13 years.

Why does that make ME the problem?

Pinkypoo,no one is attacking you but if you are knew to MB, you're going to hear advice on here that you probably haven't heard before and if you're like me, your first reaction is going to be to bristle and be defensive.

Stop, take a deep breath, and read these replies again. Realize that you are hearing what your husband says through a filter. That is not good or bad in and of itself. It just means that you put your own spin on his words and actions. Here's an example that I gave when this concept hit home for me: I was on my way to work and that day, I'd chosen to wear boots with heels. But the driveway was a bit icy so I was picking my way carefully to the car. And my husband said to me "you look good in heels". That's ALL he said to me. But I heard "you look good in heels and I want you to wear them all the time, comfort be damned". Now ordinarily I would have responded with either a sarcastic or hurt retort. But I realized I'd heard what he said through my filter and ALL he was doing was commenting on the fact that he thought I looked good in heels. Do I like wearing heels? Nope. Do I plan to wear them all the time just because he said that (particularly on icy driveways)? Nope. But that was all beside the point. I said "thank you" and got into the car and drove to work. And neither of us had any stomach acid over a fight that AM.

That's an example of a filter and what the other poster was trying to point out to you re: laundry. If you think of things in term of trying to reduce your own stress level, you might have a different view. Wouldn't it be less stressful to place the clothes on top of a bureau, dryer, table or other place where he wouldn't simply move them from one place to another? And when he needs clothes, he'll have a choice: he can put the folded clothes away, or take what he needs from the top of the dryer. That's what I did---and I'm also one who used to leave folded clothes on the bed, only to have him dump them on the floor.

One thing I would like to bring up though--and realize that I am NOT a behavorial science professional, so this is only an opinion and not an educated one at that: Is it possible that yoru husband's desire to stick to some sort of schedule or regimen is in some way an OCD-type of behavior? What would happen if his schedule were to be disrupted a few times, by POJA between the two of you. For instance, instead of bedtime by 8PM, one or two nights a week, you BOTH agree that he will forgo that exact bedtime, in order to engage in some intimate activity.

If you read the first 50 or so pages of my thread, you'll see me doing exactly what you are doing here. I couldn't wait for D18 to leave for college so I could be free. I was in tears half the time I was reading! I didn't want to hear that it was ME that was the problem! It was my husband! I knew it! No one could understand my situation, it was too strange! So back off!

But when the smoke cleared, and my feathers calmed down, I had time to step back and revisit my last 30 years objectively, not subjectively. And what everyone else saw...I finally saw, too.

I could choose to go on hating my H and blaming him for all my woes. And probably try to kill myself again over it. Or I could swallow my pride and start finding a way out of this mess.

I was told that if I change MY side, his would follow. It did. He's not the perfect H I want, but I'm not wishing one of us would die at every turn any more. And I am stronger, smarter, happier, and better equipped to make our marriage possible for another 30 years.

All because I quit thinking of what HE does wrong, and looked at what I do wrong.

btw, I too was going to ask you about the OCD. Or OCPD, which my H has. He's a lot like yours, but I think OCD is probably a better assessment of your H. You ought to do some research into it. Find ways to deal with it better so it doesn't tear you up.

I'm fairly knew here myself. I've only posted once or twice, but read the forums here constantly. There are some great posters on this site. Try to keep calm and know they are only trying to help you. Not trying to kick you while your down.

Some of the things you describe seem like small things. Would you consider picking your battles with your husband? I've learned to do this the hard way. I've fought with my husband over little things like laundry and helping out. I've learned the best way, is to be thankful I have a husband who loves me and isn't stepping out of the relationship. He's at home with me at night, and I don't need to worry about him. Compared to some other people out there, my problems are simple... even petty. If laundry on the bed bothers him, why not put it elsewhere? It will save you both headache. I prefer just putting it up when its folded so I do not have to go back to it. Is your husband willing to help if you ask him? I've also learned my husband can't read my mind. If I only ask him he's more than willing. A simple "honey, when your done with that could you help me by putting these clothes away?" does the trick for me.

I know from where you are, it seems like all this is terrible and I know it hurts you. Try to step back and think of the good things in your relationship. Does the good outweigh the bad?

I know you mentioned you have a difficult time with communication with your husband. Mine doesn't communicate well either. I've learned to talk to him in small amounts. Don't make it long and frustrating. I don't raise my voice or give off the vibe that I'm fussing. I let him know that I love him and not upset but I'd appreciate it if _____________. Just ask him if he's willing to do differently to better your relationship and life together. No one is perfect. All we can ask of each other is to try. It works for us, but like I said it was a lesson I learned the hard way. If I fight with him, I don't get my way or even a conflict resolved. The more calm and cool I am, the better the results. Try to find a time that works best for both of you. Don't give him a reason to feel like you are interrupting him. Respect each other. Try to compromise. Its what marriage is all about. When you have little talks with him about how you feel and such, remember to say something good about him. Compliment him. Don't make it all negative.

Sorry for the long post. I wish you all the best!

I spoke with my husband at length this morning, and we have resolved our conflict.

While I appreciate your advice, it was based on a normal man and normal relationships, neither of which applies in this case. While I did try, I was unable to apply the advice given to our situation because it simply didn't, well, apply. We have worked it out and made some steps toward finding a middle ground.

Please try to remember that first, not every marriage is like yours. Your experience is valuable and your advice coveted, but don't assume you "know" what motivates someone and why they are experiencing the problems they are dealing with. Offer advice in a non-assuming way that supports the efforts they are making toward bettering their relationships. Second, the MB concepts are what bring folks here and keep them here, rebuilding their marriages and finding success. Make sure that for every "opinion" you offer, you have some solid MB information to back it up.

Thanks!

Sorry if you're offended. I was only trying to help, seeing how your struggles are not as unusual as you think, and I and many other posters here have gone through the same things.

I still think you're confusing asking for expressions of love and demanding them. You got into an argument with your husband over LAUNDRY.

The purpose of MB is not to be a martyr in your marriage. It seems that you enjoy your role as martyr, and the only person you wish to change is your H. You want him to understand you, but how much effort have you put into understanding him? You want to meet halfway? I tell you, I think you mean for him to come halfway to you, and then you'll pull him over the rest of the way.

I know I'm being hard on you, but I was you, wanting HIM to make the changes to make me happy. I got pages and pages of 2x4's here to prove it. Go ahead and be mad and think we're wounding you. You'll get over it, just like I did, and then you'll do something different.

I actually did not get in a fight with my husband over laundry. If you read my post, it was about the overall state of affairs in our marriage based on his response to my presence working around his routine. Laundry was simply an example. Forget the laundry.

I do not want to change him. Quite contrary. It is ME I am working on, as I have for the last 8 years. But see, it's not only me. We're both working on ourselves. We have been using and benefiting from MB concepts for years. This was a bump that I was hoping someone with experience in MB concepts might shed light on. That is ALL. You're simplifying it and making it something it is not.

Let's be clear. I read your story. I am NOT you. I don't feel anything like you did. As much as it would make you feel good to "know everything" about our marriage because is sounds kind of similar, you are doing a disservice to me, yourself and the people seeking help on these forums.

You would do better to stick to referring to concepts of Dr. Harley and leave your expert opinion out of it. You're way off base.

I believe there is a disclaimer that you need to read before you enter the forums and it says something to the effect of: the advice given on these forums is not the advice of professionals.

CWMI is offering an opinion, just like everyone else. And like all the other opinions here, you are free to take what you like and leave the rest. What made me angry about your response to CWMI was that I saw her criticizing your behavior, yet I saw you criticizing HER. It didn't come off well in type, from my perspective. Perhaps you meant it another way.

Thanks, OurHouse.

Look, Pinky, I was only trying to help by giving you an outside perspective of how your situation appears, to me and apparently a few others on here. I suggest that if you're unhappy with the advice given to you on these boards, that you set up an appointment with the Harleys directly.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html

There's the page with the information to contact.

So...OCD or OCPD is a dead issue with you?

That's really cool. So, are you ready to stop DJing his thought patterns, and trade that LBing behavior in for negotiating for solutions that you both are enthusiastic about?

Man, it does feel to me like a spiral staricase, getting to the same posts again and again, feeling it's like the same place, when it's totally different. I TOTALLY remember feeling SO unsettled that my H had different values and priorities than I did. I got so distraught over it, for such a long time. I can't believe after all this time here I STILL DO sometimes. Good thing I have the good folks here and in IRL to help me keep straight. "Our thinking became distorted trying to force solutions." Thanks for sharing today, Pinky.

She's working with an unenthusiastic man. He says what she wants to hear in the moment, then goes back to pleasing himself. Didn't you see where they resolved the problem?

She's being appeased with words, not actions. That's not MB.

Verbally beating someone into a corner where they effectively throw up their hands and say, "You're right! I'm sorry! It's all my fault and I'll do better!" isn't a solution to an ongoing problem. Pinky is fighting hard against the notion that the solution is within her, that the problem is within her, but hey, if a few pieces of lumber about my noggin helped me see (and I'm really, really dense), maybe she'll come about.

I'm going to ping LA. She's gold.

The clothes were an opportunity for him to show her the admiration she desired. The lingerie another. All the points of contention appear to be based upon opportunities for him to show her that she means more to him than his schedule.

I fear that the subtlety is simply beyond him. And that is OK. Most men don't WANT subtlety.

When a woman feels as though she is yelling her needs... a man is often disregarding whispers.

When a MAN feels as though his wife is yelling her needs... it is called nagging.


Men are dense... we don't typically mean to be, and I suspect that he does care more about her than his schedule. But by trying to make him prove it, appears to be having a deleterious effect.

And I am sorry Pinky... but the reaction seems to be an over-reaction, and worries me. I hope you do well.

I came here for insight into an issue we were having. A small,k but hurtful issue. Instead I had Chicken Little tell me the sky is falling. My marriage is doomed. I can understand why after spending a great deal of time around marriages that are in serious trouble one see destruction in any marriage. Let me tell you how my "unenthusiastic" husband and I resolved this issue.

First, he read all your posts.
Next, we pulled out the MB concepts and negotiated successfully. We figured out where last night's conversation went wrong and picked up there. We were able to resolve the problem without LBing and adjusted our PoJA to include the issues that came up. He apologized for the pain he inflicted. I apologized for DJing him. We agreed that we both feel very confident about the solutions, and very much in love after 13 years.

We also agreed to never post a topic on this board again.

If you had simply said "it sounds like your issues regarding his thoughts is DJing him and maybe you might try eliminating that LB and begin negotiating" I would have said great! Sounds good. But that is not what I found here. In the one topic that did mention the concepts, it was infused with sarcasm and disdain. Way to be supportive.

Some of your ideas about the concepts were wonderful. All of your non MB related criticism was wrong and completely counterproductive. Please consider the undue harm you might be inflicting on someone's marriage by chasing them away from the one place they can find the tools to truly save a marriage in danger.

You should stick around then and offer the rest of us advice on dealing with our own POJA issues and how to stop DJ'ing our spouses when they don't respond.

I'd listen.

In fact, I'd love to be privy to the conversation where you negotiated. I have trouble with negotiation, but I'm open to trying new ways.