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January 2007 my wife had an EA followed by a second EA over the summer of 2007. In the Fall of 2007 my wife just "shutdown". I started my quest to find out what went wrong and started to change myself.
January 2008 she stopped the EA, and we went into counseling.
She says that our marriage was great for the first 6 years, then we had kids and I got too involved in the church, started a side business and eventually I Just plain didn't NEED her anymore and didn't spend the time and effort with her or the kids. I was too interested in the business and getting things done for other people. That lasted for 10 years. That neglect lead her to being very unhappy and having two EA back to back. There was no PA.
Anyways, the EA stopped, we went into counseling.
I have significantly changed to meet every need of hers that I can identify. She says she wants the marriage, and hopes that her feelings return for me again. She says, she is not the same needy woman I met and that she had to reinvent herself because I wasn't paying attention to her.
Our marriage is probably the best it has been in a long time, the house is peaceful, we get along, and we are working on getting our stuff together and working through picking up the pieces.
We have sex every week or two, because the counselor says so. However, without any connection it is terrible and usually I have to beg to get any.
She says she loves me but, she doesn't have any connection so she has a hard time being intimate.
Intimacy and it's quality are a big deal for me.
After a year and a half I feel lost and like I want to give up, after all, I can't make someone love me, and to remain in a relationship for years in the hopes that her feelings, that may or may not happen, come back seems like a waste.
So my Questions are:
1. Do the feelings ever come back or do I need to choose between finding love again or living in a non-intimate marriage.
2. What is the typical time it takes for a woman to start having feelings after neglect and an EA?
(I've heard it is often 1-2 years)
3. How long should I wait in hopes she starts having feelings again or am I just wasting my time.
4. How long should we be in counseling before calling it quits?
Married: 18
Me: 44
Her: 40
Son: 8
Son: 12
Last edited by Budg1e; 01/30/09 10:22 PM.
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Hi Budg1e, Welcome to MB. It's a weekend and things are usually slow during weekends. Also, you've posted this on the Recovery Forum which is less read than GQII. If you find that you don't get the replies you want, you might consider re-posting (or asking the mods to move your thread) to General Questions II. You're welcome to read my saga linked to my sig line and I'll share my experiences as best as I can. I do have a couple questions that might help you in the meantime: I was too interested in the business and getting things done for other people. That lasted for 10 years. That neglect lead her to being very unhappy and having two EA back to back. There was no PA. Do you have irrefutable proof that there was no PA? I ask because I thought my WH was ONLY having an EA but discovered that they had secret phone sex, which, technically qualifies his EA as a PA, even if they never met in person.Anyways, the EA stopped, we went into counseling. How were you able to know for certain that the EA stopped? My WH was in counseling with me for 2 months but because of his withdrawal-to-the-OW addiction, he had only gone further underground. I thought the EA had stopped, when in fact it had not.I have significantly changed to meet every need of hers that I can identify. What did you do to try to identify HER needs? Are you familiar with any Marriagebuilding concepts? Have you read any MB books, specifically about the Love Bank deposits and withdrawals? It's possible that you may not have identified one of her top EN's, and therefore you've not been able to meet it.......yet.She says she wants the marriage, and hopes that her feelings return for me again. She says, she is not the same needy woman I met and that she had to reinvent herself because I wasn't paying attention to her.
Our marriage is probably the best it has been in a long time, the house is peaceful, we get along, and we are working on getting our stuff together and working through picking up the pieces.
We have sex every week or two, because the counselor says so. However, without any connection it is terrible and usually I have to beg to get any.She says she loves me but, she doesn't have any connection so she has a hard time being intimate.  If you're doing everything possible, your lack of intimacy could be because she's still in withdrawal at best or gone further underground and still in an A at worst.Intimacy and it's quality are a big deal for me. This is good as many guys don't have this desire.After a year and a half I feel lost and like I want to give up, after all, I can't make someone love me, and to remain in a relationship for years in the hopes that her feelings, that may or may not happen, come back seems like a waste. This is one reason why I offer my experience after 30+ years of such a detachment. There is hope but it will take a lot of work and commitment.So my Questions are: 1. Do the feelings ever come back or do I need to choose between finding love again or living in a non-intimate marriage. For us, the MB principles helped us overcome this challenge. The feelings did not come back; we started to build them for the first time after learning about MB concepts.2. What is the typical time it takes for a woman to start having feelings after neglect and an EA? (I've heard it is often 1-2 years) For us, once the A was indeed over and we both started changing after discovering each others EN's, we began to have 'feelings of intimacy' about 6 months after verifiable NC.
How have you been able to verify that she is indeed in NC? Even if she does not physically contact him, if she checks his MySpace or FaceBook or ClassMates accounts, she feeds her addiction and cannot fully withdraw.3. How long should I wait in hopes she starts having feelings again or am I just wasting my time. This is different for every person. For me, I waited for 32+ years in a detached M because I wanted a Biblically justifiable reason to 'get out'. After the EA/PA, (and our DS25 challenged us to fight for our M before Plan D) I decided to seek action instead of 'waiting' any longer. But like I said, it's different for every person.4. How long should we be in counseling before calling it quits? For us, when it became unproductive for our marriage, we quit the first MC. A few months later, after finding MB books and this web site (and eventually this discussion forum), we began to make progress, started working with a tough MC who knew/believed in MB principles, and quit a year ago because we were (and are) doing well enough ~ for the most part ~ to not need MC on a regular basis.Hope that helps Budg1e. Wishing you the best, Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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Budg1e, Ace called it perfectly... You MUST verify if NC is in effect. You must find out if the EA's were really one or both PA's... If she is telling you the truth she will have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with you scheduling a polygraph... If she protests, "There's no need! I'm telling you the truth!", "It will cost too much money!", "How dare you not trust me!". You then KNOW what it was... My wife said the same thing along with about a thousand other WW's and WH here on MB. "It was only an EA", then "We only kissed", then "One time PA", then "it was years and years!!!". She may have told you that to simply not have to account for her actions or out of fear of your reaction... You want to know, ask her, and tell her you are scheduling the polygraph. It's probably the reason she is acting the way she is... As Ace pointed out, if it's not over you will NEVER recover...  God bless. Jim
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Irrefutable proof there was no PA, NO, but as confident as I can be. We were all friends that hung out together but I believe it would have headed that way if it wasn't confronted.
I monitor everything computer networks, bills, credit cards, everything. Not out of trust, it's just that I am the Analytical type, so I do the bills, fix the computers and manage our network. So no NC.
Yes I am familiar with the MB concepts, I've read several books from Michelle Weiner Davis, the 5 love languages, and MB materials
She could be in withdrawal, she says, she has no connection with me, and can't bring herself to to express what isn't there.
I was pretty deflated the other day when I said how much I've changed by staying home, talking with her, spending time with the kids and getting them involved in a bunch of activities they love.
My EN is physical intimacy which has always been a problem. She doesn't really want to be touched or anything. For the first 8 months she hated being in the house, was always out, always shopping, anything to get away from me. She hated the house, let it go severely downhill and so on. Since then she has stepped up to the plate to keep the house in reasonable order, making dinners and actually hanging out with me. We do alot more things together. She is a terrible procrastinator and not very motivated unless the pressure is put on.
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Thanks, Jim...you have great ideas and I hope you can continue to help Budg1e. Irrefutable proof there was no PA, NO, but as confident as I can be.
How do you define PA, Budg1e? Intense emotional involvement is often more difficult to overcome than an impulsive one-night-stand. If your WW and OM had phone or cyber-sex, this technically qualifies as a PA and could cause her to remain detached from you. She will remain in perpetual withdrawal until she cuts all contact.
We were all friends that hung out together but I believe it would have headed that way if it wasn't confronted.
Many A's are between a WS and a spouses best friend. The fact that you are all friends only increases the chances that her involvement was far more than you suspect.
I monitor everything computer networks, bills, credit cards, everything. Not out of trust, it's just that I am the Analytical type, so I do the bills, fix the computers and manage our network. So no NC. (I'm assuming you meant "so no contact".)
Unless you're physically with her 24/7, you cannot monitor everything, Budg1e. You have no control if she uses cash to buy a throw-away cell phone, communicates with OM though a friend, goes to the library or other public place to email or check into his social network sites.
Yes I am familiar with the MB concepts, I've read several books from Michelle Weiner Davis, the 5 love languages, and MB materials
She could be in withdrawal, she says, she has no connection with me, and can't bring herself to to express what isn't there.
I suggest you read and understand the Love Bank concepts, especially the Emotional Needs Questionnaires. As described in our saga linked to my sig line, you can build (or rebuild) feelings of being in love using these unique concepts, even in arranged initially loveless marriages.
I was pretty deflated the other day when I said how much I've changed by staying home, talking with her, spending time with the kids and getting them involved in a bunch of activities they love.
Family Commitment may be a top EN for you, but not necessarily for her.....especially if she is still in the A or in severe withdrawal. While it's good, it may not score you many points with your wife.
My EN is physical intimacy which has always been a problem. She doesn't really want to be touched or anything. For the first 8 months she hated being in the house, was always out, always shopping, anything to get away from me. She hated the house, let it go severely downhill and so on. Since then she has stepped up to the plate to keep the house in reasonable order, making dinners and actually hanging out with me. We do alot more things together. She is a terrible procrastinator and not very motivated unless the pressure is put on.
What type of pressure? Is saving her marriage something that will motivate her? In closing, you might consider moving this thread to GQII which has alot more traffic than this Recovery Forum. Just click on the notify button below and ask the mods to move it.....or you can start a new thread by cutting and pasting this. Wishing you the best, Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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How do you define PA, Budg1e? Intense emotional involvement is often more difficult to overcome than an impulsive one-night-stand. If your WW and OM had phone or cyber-sex, this technically qualifies as a PA and could cause her to remain detached from you. She will remain in perpetual withdrawal until she cuts all contact.
I define it as EA = No Sex, PA = Sex. However, they spent considerable time on the phone, the first guy tried to get her to visit him at his office. But you're right, this type of EA she has given part of her heart to the OM and I would classify it as "Intense Emotional Involvement"
Many A's are between a WS and a spouses best friend. The fact that you are all friends only increases the chances that her involvement was far more than you suspect.
We're not friends anymore!! The little group is down to a very small subset, they other guys are never mentioned anymore.
Family Commitment may be a top EN for you, but not necessarily for her.....especially if she is still in the A or in severe withdrawal. While it's good, it may not score you many points with your wife.
Actually, that is an EN for her - not so much for me. (Part of my neglect at the time)
What type of pressure? Is saving her marriage something that will motivate her?
Yes the marriage motivates her. She tends to move by her feelings than getting up and trying to DO SOMETHING about it. She wants to feel like the day we got married. It seems that now things in the house are content she if prepare to settle for that. She is the one saying that she wants the marriage. (I do too but somedays I'm so frustrated I want to quit) I feel that we've pointed at my faults that drove the relationship to were it is and I've accepted that responsibility. I've improved & improving I want to keep moving forward. Maybe you're right, I haven't hit here ENs yet. I'm not prepared to settle for 80% better without my EN being met, I feel as if we either go the distance or we move on, and at some point I hope my EN are met in the process.For me, it's some kind of affection and decent SF. Just waiting around hoping that someone will wave a magic wand and everything is better seems like too much of a risk and too much of a waste of time, I want tangible movement forward. I would hate to spend years at this stage only to divorce anyways.
First 4 months she wasn't even approachable, Next 4 months we sort of talked, the last 4 months have been a slow progression to peace in the house and here we sit.
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I define it as EA = No Sex, PA = Sex. However, they spent considerable time on the phone, the first guy tried to get her to visit him at his office. But you're right, this type of EA she has given part of her heart to the OM and I would classify it as "Intense Emotional Involvement"
You like blue? I'll go green! Could that extensive emotional involvement have phone or cyber sex as a component? I never dreamed that my WH could have talked dirty with a strange woman (and now that he is through withdrawal, he is aghast at what he did and says he will be for the rest of his life.)
Many A's are between a WS and a spouses best friend. The fact that you are all friends only increases the chances that her involvement was far more than you suspect.
We're not friends anymore!! The little group is down to a very small subset, they other guys are never mentioned anymore.
Is it possible she never mentions the other guys because they MIGHT be enabling her further addiction to OM? This could be the clue you have yet to uncover as to why seem doesn't seem engaged in rebuilding your M as much as you want.
Family Commitment may be a top EN for you, but not necessarily for her.....especially if she is still in the A or in severe withdrawal. While it's good, it may not score you many points with your wife.
Actually, that is an EN for her - not so much for me. (Part of my neglect at the time)
I only mentioned that because you seemed to bemoan that you were doing all these activities with/for the kids and she seemed not to notice.....could be noteworthy, maybe not.
What type of pressure? Is saving her marriage something that will motivate her?
Yes the marriage motivates her. She tends to move by her feelings than getting up and trying to DO SOMETHING about it. She wants to feel like the day we got married. It seems that now things in the house are content she if prepare to settle for that. She is the one saying that she wants the marriage. (I do too but somedays I'm so frustrated I want to quit) I feel that we've pointed at my faults that drove the relationship to were it is and I've accepted that responsibility. I've improved & improving I want to keep moving forward. Maybe you're right, I haven't hit here ENs yet.
Bingo. This could be the key you're looking for. Meeting HER Emotional Needs HERE, today and from now on.
I'm not prepared to settle for 80% better without my EN being met, I feel as if we either go the distance or we move on, and at some point I hope my EN are met in the process. For me, it's some kind of affection and decent SF. Just waiting around hoping that someone will wave a magic wand and everything is better seems like too much of a risk and too much of a waste of time, I want tangible movement forward. I would hate to spend years at this stage only to divorce anyways.
Not sure if you read my saga (linked to my sig line), but I tried for over 30 years to find tangible movement forward after marrying too young for the wrong reasons (didn't want to be left behind). After the subsequent detachment and my WH's E/PA (including phone/cyber sex with another "Christian"), we both decided to work on our M, even if I was initially secretly thrilled that his infidelity gave me the justifiable 'out' I had been seeking. Take my word for it....even if it exists, the magic wand means nothing without hard work and effort.
First 4 months she wasn't even approachable, Next 4 months we sort of talked, the last 4 months have been a slow progression to peace in the house and here we sit.
Have you seen the movie Fireproof? There's a GQII thread about it with a link Lifechoice posted to an interview by Kirk Cameron (of the '90s TV sitcom Growing Pains). In the movie, he works tirelessly without his EN's being met and eventually wins over his W. It might give you a glimpse of one way to seek more tangible movement forward.
Glad you found MB now that you don't want to sit around anymore, waiting for that illusive magic wand to fill up your Love Banks. Keep reading, seeking and asking and now that your thread is on GQII, hopefully more will help you find what you're looking for.
Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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[quote=Budg1e] Could that extensive emotional involvement have phone or cyber sex as a component? I never dreamed that my WH could have talked dirty with a strange woman (and now that he is through withdrawal, he is aghast at what he did and says he will be for the rest of his life.) Ok, you can have Blue back  I'll go black again. Yes Cyber sex was definitely part of it. Is it possible she never mentions the other guys because they MIGHT be enabling her further addiction to OM? This could be the clue you have yet to uncover as to why seem doesn't seem engaged in rebuilding your M as much as you want.I don't think so, I think it's really over I only mentioned that because you seemed to bemoan that you were doing all these activities with/for the kids and she seemed not to notice.....could be noteworthy, maybe not.She notices the involvement with the kids she sees a big difference there.Bingo. This could be the key you're looking for. Meeting HER Emotional Needs HERE, today and from now on.
I don't think she even knows what her EN are! Here's part of the problem, I think she has been in withdrawal for a longer period of time that anyone would like. She was very sarcastic and cold. She won't read materials, books MB, nothing. She would say that this stuff is just an opinion. It hasn't been until recently that she is receptive to reading & watching videos.
The other thing I hear regularly is that she is "not there yet", she wants to be but just not there. That I am much further down the road than she is.
I had an interesting counseling session today and we think that she is just turning the corner where she would be receptive to read books, watch videos or apply some of the MB techniques. I think that the EN questionnaire is a great tool but if it comes out too soon, she'll be less receptive.
I went down the road of wondering if she was still connected to the OM or maybe even found a new one. The counselor feels quite strong that there is NC.
The other thing is my wife said that she is starting to feel the connection. In our early years she was co-defendant on me, she was like a "leach" (MC words). Through the years of neglect she had to "re-invent" herself so that she didn't need me now she is struggling with finding that balance between "I need you" and independence - like a normal relationship.
Not sure if you read my saga (linked to my sig line), but I tried for over 30 years to find tangible movement forward after marrying too young for the wrong reasons (didn't want to be left behind). After the subsequent detachment and my WH's E/PA (including phone/cyber sex with another "Christian"), we both decided to work on our M, even if I was initially secretly thrilled that his infidelity gave me the justifiable 'out' I had been seeking. Take my word for it....even if it exists, the magic wand means nothing without hard work and effort.Yes, I've read and reading your "saga" I know about that justifiable "out, in the back of my mind I feel that I can leave this marriage anytime I want. Prior to the EA I would have felt obligated to stay. Have you seen the movie Fireproof? There's a GQII thread about it with a link Lifechoice posted to an interview by Kirk Cameron (of the '90s TV sitcom Growing Pains). In the movie, he works tirelessly without his EN's being met and eventually wins over his W. It might give you a glimpse of one way to seek more tangible movement forward.No I haven't but I will look it upGlad you found MB now that you don't want to sit around anymore, waiting for that illusive magic wand to fill up your Love Banks. Keep reading, seeking and asking and now that your thread is on GQII, hopefully more will help you find what you're looking for.
Ace
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Could that extensive emotional involvement have phone or cyber sex as a component? I never dreamed that my WH could have talked dirty with a strange woman (and now that he is through withdrawal, he is aghast at what he did and says he will be for the rest of his life.) Ok, you can have Blue back I'll go black again. Yes Cyber sex was definitely part of it. Thanks for blue back, but I'll go green again for clarity.  Do you see how your wife's affair is/was a physical addiction in addition to being an emotional one? That makes your path towards recovery more difficult but not insurmountable.Is it possible she never mentions the other guys because they MIGHT be enabling her further addiction to OM? This could be the clue you have yet to uncover as to why seem doesn't seem engaged in rebuilding your M as much as you want.I don't think so, I think it's really over Was an NC letter ever sent? If not, her reaction when you broach the subject may give you a clue as to her level of withdrawal.
Did you expose to either OM's wife? Again, her reaction to this type of discussion is a gauge of sorts.
You might consider bringing this up with MC in advance if you can, mentioning the Marriagebuilders books to see if your MC is on board with NC for life and exposure to the OPS (other person's spouse). For us these were vital components towards our recovery but many MC's don't believe in one or both. Our first MC said to "let God take care of OW and don't expose". That's why we had 3 more D-Days.
From our experience, you can't begin recovery until you are both positive the A is over. NC letter sent and exposure to OPS are both imperative, but of most importance is your wife's contriteness, remorse and sincere demonstration (saying AND SHOWING) that she's willing to do everything to help you heal for as long as it takes.I only mentioned that because you seemed to bemoan that you were doing all these activities with/for the kids and she seemed not to notice.....could be noteworthy, maybe not.She notices the involvement with the kids she sees a big difference there.Bingo. This could be the key you're looking for. Meeting HER Emotional Needs HERE, today and from now on.
I don't think she even knows what her EN are! Here's part of the problem, I think she has been in withdrawal for a longer period of time that anyone would like. She was very sarcastic and cold. She won't read materials, books MB, nothing. She would say that this stuff is just an opinion. It hasn't been until recently that she is receptive to reading & watching videos.
The other thing I hear regularly is that she is "not there yet", she wants to be but just not there. That I am much further down the road than she is.She's not in recovery yet, Budg1e. You can't educate her, either....you'll have to entice her into wanting to do the work towards recovery. Discovering and working on EN's is a first step but will take time.I had an interesting counseling session today and we think that she is just turning the corner where she would be receptive to read books, watch videos or apply some of the MB techniques. I think that the EN questionnaire is a great tool but if it comes out too soon, she'll be less receptive. I went down the road of wondering if she was still connected to the OM or maybe even found a new one. The counselor feels quite strong that there is NC. The other thing is my wife said that she is starting to feel the connection. In our early years she was co-defendant on me, she was like a "leach" (MC words). Through the years of neglect she had to "re-invent" herself so that she didn't need me now she is struggling with finding that balance between "I need you" and independence - like a normal relationship. It's good you're seeing an MC who seems to be supportive but you may need to be more proactive. "Feeling quite strong there is NC" will be defined for sure when your wife writes (and you approve) an NC letter you both send together.
Our first NC letter was emailed and OW thought I wrote it. A few months later after D-Day 4, my WH offered to send a hand-written second NC letter. (I enclosed a copy of His Needs, Her Needs and tried, somewhat successfully she said, to help her reconnect with her BH....but I didn't expose to him nor cut contact with her until after I had registered and started posting here on MB 2 years ago.)Not sure if you read my saga (linked to my sig line), Yes, I've read and reading your "saga" I know about that justifiable "out, in the back of my mind I feel that I can leave this marriage anytime I want. Prior to the EA I would have felt obligated to stay. You have lots going for you, Budg1e so please don't give up yet. It will be hard work but it is well worth it. I have 3 additional suggestions for you:
1. Read all you can on this website as well as Surviving an Affair, His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters. Continue with MC, hopefully interjecting and embracing MB principles for recovery because this is the most successful plan available. (Especially the Emotional Needs questionnaire.)
2. Make your wife feel safe sharing her most intimate thoughts by learning to stop all love busters when the urge to be angry or demanding or judgemental comes up. Take your time and do what the guy in Fireproof did....shower her with love and affection even if your efforts are not reciprocated or even not acknowledged or worse, not appreciated. Keep it up anyhow with the goal of winning her over.....visualize the results you want to keep you going when it gets tough.
3. Keep reading and posting, asking any questions you have. Consider what I've suggested above regarding NC letters and exposure~~~there's a thread about exposure here on GQII which might help you. Don't assume anything.
I'm sure there are other things you can be doing to get your marriage on the recovery rollercoaster. Hopefully others will point them out and correct anything I may have missed.
Ace
FWH/BW (me)57+ M:36+ yr.
4 D-Days: Jun-Nov 06 E/PA~OW#2 (OW#1 2000)
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So my Questions are:
1. Do the feelings ever come back or do I need to choose between finding love again or living in a non-intimate marriage. Yes, the feelings CAN come back if you have a STRATEGIC PLAN to restore romantic love. It is not something that will happen by magic or accident. You have to learn to be a PRO at meeting her needs and learn to avoid lovebusters. Romantic love can be restored. She can feel the same way, if not more intense that she felt when you first got married. 2. What is the typical time it takes for a woman to start having feelings after neglect and an EA?
(I've heard it is often 1-2 years) It could be never if you have no plan. If you have an active plan of recovery, it might take 2 years. If you don't, then never. Most people just fly blind and hope for the best, but that rarely works. It takes a strategy that involves meeting the RIGHT NEEDS and avoiding lovebusters and [very important!---->] spending 15 hours every week meeting each others needs. [<----critical!] 3. How long should I wait in hopes she starts having feelings again or am I just wasting my time. I wouldn't WAIT, I would take action. Waiting won't fix your marriage. You have to fix it. 4. How long should we be in counseling before calling it quits? Take the money you have been paying some marriage counselor, who has no idea how to save your marriage, and go to a Marriage Builders weekend. [marriage counselors have an 84% failure rate and have no idea how to save marriages - AS YOU CAN SEE IN YOUR OWN SITUATION] Dr. Harley can teach you how to love each other again. The weekend program starts you off with lessons to learn how to do this. Dr Harley and his staff follow up with you weekly on the lessons. You would have daily access to Dr Harley on this forum. His plan really does work.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Budge, you can start kick off this process by filing out the emotional needs and lovebusters questionaires to see what each others top emotional needs and lovebusters are. My suggestion would be to STOP having scheduled sex. You are making it worse by doing that. If she has sex with you just because she HAS TO, she will resent it and will grow to associate RESENTMENT with sex. If you RESOLVE the lovebusters and learn to meet her top emotional needs, the sex problem will resolve itself; she will WANT to have sex with you. And not at the point of a gun because some MC told her to do it. How to Overcome Sexual Aversion
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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