My situation was relayed in another post regarding my wife's insistence on privacy. Quick synopsis: She emailed an ex behind my back, they said inappropriate stuff to each other, I said she betrayed me, she says it is not a betrayal of trust or being unfaithful because she was only apologizing for how she broke up with him, we've been in hell for year, etc.

A new question for everyone (and this time I will try to just listen and not argue!):

In the Harley/Marriage Builders lexicon, what has to happen for something to be called an affair or infidelity?

It doesn't matter what the MB definition is. What matters is if the BS (betrayed spouse) thinks it is, then it is.

That is exactly how I feel and I have been trying to get W and others (incompetent counselors, pastor, etc.) to see this. Is there any way to get through to her and them?

This is most certainly a betrayal. You had an expectation of trust, that your W wouldnt be emailing ex lovers and sharing personal information about your relaionship.

The fact that something is done in secret is an indicator of betrayal. She KNEW what she was doing was wrong. Otherwise, she would have had the conversation with you present.

What she was doing was putting bait out there, seeing if anyone bit. And now she is blameshifting because she got caught.

To be fair, I don't know your situation at all and you are posting to a site on infidelity. But if your W has never been unfaithful aside from this contact with her ex, I don't think it's quite the same degree of betrayal as a full physical affair. It is still a betrayal in the sense that she did it behind your back. If this is the case, approach it along those lines rather than accuse her of adultery.

However, if she is/was a WW, she has used up her free benefit of the doubt and contacting ex's or anyone else behind your back for any reason whatsover is equivalent to a full fledged sexual affair, based on her behavior in the past.

Thanks Tabby1

I have not accused her of adultery. I have been careful to make the distinction between betrayal/violation of trust/unfaithful actions and full-on adultery. However, it felt like adultery to me. They had a sexual relationship when they were engaged 24 years ago and then they had a very sweet, excited, affectionate reunion behind my back. Then she told me it was none of my business, that she would end it when she got ready, you can't control me, etc.

Sounds like an EA starting up.

The "affectionate reunion" sounds a little too much like an EA to me. It is most certainly your business because you are her H and should shouldn't be engaging in affectionate reunions with anyone outside her family. It could be politely described as inappropriate behavior. She's right, you can't control her. But if she values her marriage to you, she will behave in a way that doesn't upset you and leave you feeling betrayed.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "inappropriate things" ottert, but I disagree that's not infidelity. My husband had an EA that did not develop into a PA, and included "inappropriate conversations" (sexual texts) and the skank sent a mostly nude pic of herself. It was every bit an affair and from what I've seen on here, I went through the same emotions as those whose WS had a PA. So I find it insulting, Tabby, when it's said an EA isn't "quite the same degree" (and therefore not as painful) as a PA. A betrayal is a betrayal.

JustKim is exactly right.

If your wife wouldn't say it with you standing right next to her, it shouldn't be said at all.

Personally, I wouldn't tolerate my W conversing with any ex for any reason, kids or not.

Why anyone would want to talk to an ex is a mystery to me. They're an "ex" for a reason.

I completely agree. Too much emotional history there.

This from the late Shirley Glass:Just Friends or Emotional Affair?

"she says it is not a betrayal of trust or being unfaithful because she was only apologizing for how she broke up with him"

One this is baloney. Second anything you won't do or say in front of your spouse is being unfaithful.

It never got to the level of anything sexual at all. To be fair, most of the worst of it came from OM. But my wife telling her ex, with whom she has memories of all kinds of sex with, that she still thinks of him and his parents, is "inappropriate" by any measure. She also referenced the Dan Fogelberg song "Same Old Lang Syne" ("Met my old lover in the grocery store") when she told him she had prayed they would run into each other so she could apologize. She was also very excited when she got his first email, saying "Hey! I can't believe I'm talking to after all these years!" and other stuff like that. I later learned that she cried when she realized who it was. Her explanation was that she was relieved that she would finally get a chance to apologize. Yeah, right.

He said things like "part of me still loves you and always will", "don't think I haven't thought of you often these past 20 years" and "not a year has gone by when I haven't thought of you and prayed for you on your birthday."

Later my wife told me that she had thought of him and prayed for him on his birthday for 20 years also. That was a kick in the gut.

I have to believe that my wife having a PA would be more painful. But you are 100% correct. A betrayal is a betrayal.

Yup, that's exactly my line of thinking Mark.

Ah Ottert....and herein lies the rub. This is exactly where gender differences come into play. In general it seems men are more bothered by the PA, and women generally more upset by the emotional aspect (which is why most of us immediately ask "are you in love with her?"), but in my mind one isn't more or less painful than the other. Bottom line, I think, is what your wife did was very inappropriate and a betrayal to you. I would call that an EA. Like someone else said, if she wouldn't do it in front of you, then obviously something is wrong with the behavior and she shouldn't be doing it.