But Cat, what I'm trying to say, is that you deserve better, too, than to feel like that so much of the time. Like LA says, what we allow ouselves to do to another, we do to ourselves. And vice versa. It's like, you treated yourself badly all weekend, and then spoke up to your H, and he didn't validate you, so you got mad. Okay, I get that, and when oyu're ready, you'll express that to your H. But what about the part that you own? Would you be willing to treat yourself kinder and with more care next time?

Are you taking 15 hours of UA time, FC time doing things that you enjoy, too? It sounds to me from the outside, that you two run yourselves ragged, and then are frustrated that you have no kind words left for each other. Like maybe both of you have a top EN for DS, maybe SF, but then neglect the rest of the ENs, that are important to you, too. Because we can only strecth ourselves so far in a day. What do you think?

Sounds like you did the one-shot setup...

if these things have names.


Were you acting from love all weekend or were doing things right?

I don't see where you blew anything in one comment. Do you mean the "yours trumps mine" comment?

Funny thing when we do something new...we can set it up so that we don't have to do it again..."See? That's not for me. I'll mess it up."

Like turning the load of whites pink on your first load and not having to risk doing laundry again.

Proving the negative.

With no room for others, who are included in your "new" step, to not know what to do with your new. Those who may have craved it for years, and are startled, unsure? They share back.

The over-doer/under-doer become habits in our roles...and then, when the over-doer stops, the under-doer has no idea what their role is...somebody switched the rules.

I believe your H feels cut deeply when you do not give a response to something he says to you. So, he wasn't going to sit in stunned silence at your disclosure...he was going to share back.

And he did.

The true DJ here is that you took his response as upping you instead of "it's share time" response. When you set someone up, tell them in advance, "I'm going to share something I normally keep to myself. I want you to say these words, and only these words in response, 'I'm so sorry, Cat.' And then hold me."

That's radical honesty.

In my eyes, you both shared...and you went even farther and shared your DJ with him aloud at the end.

Setups are how we fail ourselves...proving ourselves to be unshareable, not worth knowing...scary, even. We aren't. You hurt. You itched and scratched all night...like trading one pain in for another.

Share the conversation you had with DD with H...ask him if he wants to be included...in all of your stuff...and maybe you can lay that bag of soil down...because you don't want to cause yourself further hurt...and it's okay to not do and NOT be weak...and it's okay to share and be shared with.

LA

I must have said this wrong. I thought I said that I actually enjoyed my weekend. We got along really well, no AOs, no DJs that I know of (til this morning), we were actually kind of bonding. And I got a whole lot of stuff done. I spoke honestly to him about not dealing with his issues that weren't mine to own, I took care of what I wanted to, I helped him some because I wasn't being pressured to, the one time he really did need help (moving a 2-ft-circumference tree trunk) he just came up and said 'will you help me with this' and I did...I was pretty pleased.

Gotcha, cat, thanks for clarifying!

I don't think you said it wrong...I think you said something different...

that your nice weekend was wiped out by one remark.

Would like to know what that was...

and the whole weekend sounds new...different from previous pattern...or rather, what has become your new pattern this past year...with some old weekends thrown in...

Are you saying you felt happy, safe and brave enough to share with him...and you're going to continue to share what you feel (physically, emotionally, mentally)?

LA

La, what I meant was that I tried to apply MB and had a pretty successful weekend. And this morning, I should have been compassionate AND honest (I'm sorry you feel bad, can I get you some medicine? AND Wow, I just realized how much it triggers me when I say something about myself and it feels like people gloss over it and move on to talk about themselves. I need to work on that boundary).

Something like that?

I'm wondering what response you wanted from him... why his response was unacceptable to you.

It sounded like you were just sharing with him what was troubling you physically, and he responded by doing the same. IMHO you had an unspoken request in your statement... you weren't being totally H&O. You didn't mean to have a conversation with you and H sharing your physical complaints. You wanted some attention or comfort from H. But you didn't ask for that. And then you got angry when he didn't read your mind... at a time when he's prolly in a particularly bad position to start comforting you if he isn't in the habit of doing so. He almost got fired, right? Hard time to ask anyone to start thinking of someone else, especially someone accustomed to only thinking about themselves.

Not saying he is right in only thinking about himself. Just that you approached this in a way predestined for failure. Was it another test?

I don't get it. How are you supposed to ask for attention or comfort without telling him what's wrong?

When he tells me what's wrong with him (except for today), I at the very least say 'I'm sorry' and usually ask him about whatever it is. Is that not what other people do? Show compassion and encourage the person to share with you?

In our case, we have a long history of me speaking (if I ever do) and him not acknowledging that I have even spoken, let alone engage in a conversation with me about ME. I'm sure it's his insecurity or whatever. But we had just spent a couple of really close, non-battling days together, and I was feeling safe enough, for once, to tell him something about me. Because of what D18 said the day before about me never speaking, it's always the two of them. I wanted to change that for her sake, so she'll see NOT to be that way (we did discuss it, too).

Anyway, I'm confused now. How do other people talk to each other in a way that would get such needs met?

I see your side Cat because I find myself in the same position of often being "trumped". Not necessarily on health-related issues; H is pretty good on that front. But if I'm down about something or something is bothering me, he is usually *more* down or *more* bothered.

I also have not found an acceptable solution.

You enjoyed who you were this past weekend and let yourself down the morning you shared? Because you didn't have to offer medicine, a cure...you could have done what you craved...to validate you heard him.

And yes, it hurts soooo much to feel glossed over...when you've shared what you've kept hidden...precious and vulnerable...and it hurts because you gloss over yourself every single time you don't share your stuff.

And you've done it to yourself for years...sincerely an act of shame of self...fear of others...and giving others more power than they can possibly have. So sharing, anyway...and sharing your process "I fear you're going to gloss over me, when I share." You're correct...that's part of it.

Knowing you have an expectation of a comfort response...or an acknowledgement response...share it, also. I wasn't mocking you...my urging you to share more of your stuff isn't saying what you shared wasn't good enough.

I've been there with feeling trumped, glossed over, discounted and discarded. Again, until I caught my hand in it, saw and shared my expectations, my setup, I didn't stop my part.

Your H wants you to feel his love...no way he doesn't. He doesn't want to trump your pain, your joy, anything of yours. Or your fear. He has all those himself.

You're not doing it wrong...you're doing. And doing differently. I have no doubt you will fall in love with your H as you fall in love with yourself.

LA

That's wonderful that you respond to such a statement by saying something caring. But he is not you, right? How you respond is how a lot of women would tend to respond. But do you see that the request is unspoken? For all he knew, you were just stating something about how you felt. He responded likewise.

You know a lot about how humans behave. Don't you think that's how a lot of guy conversations would have gone?

"I must've wrenched my shoulder playing hoops yesterday, my shoulder is stiff."

"Oh? My knee has been sore all week from skiing."

Just sharing, that's all. Cus no one asked for hugs or anything, so no one gave any.


By saying,
"I took pain pills last night for the arthritis but that it made me itch, and I kept waking up all night to scratch. Now I'm feeling tired and sorry for myself. Would you mind giving me a hug?"

Thanks for coming to my thread! I always appreciate the gentle reminders of my part.

Some may have issue with me saying it makes no difference, when I have said on another's thread that I would never forgive my H for an A. But that's just my case; I have no right to judge anyone for anything. And if we're being honest here? I wish my H would have an A so I'd have an excuse to leave him. If I left for any other reason, it'd be on my shoulders for not working hard enough to fix things.

I'm married to a man who obviously loves me to death, has no intention of leaving me or cheating on me, wants to buy me things, extremely romantic and great in SF, has an amazing mind and the potential to be a great person in business if his insecurities would allow him (keeps sabotaging himself). We live in an amazing house on the 'rich' street', 4500 sq ft, 3 cars, 3 time shares, if I say I want a new cat or piece of furniture or whatever, he just says fine, or goes out and buys it for me. He would move heaven and earth for D17.

But I don't have the feelings I'm supposed to have for him, and never have; I honestly only married him because he wanted me (when I believed I was unloveable), and I was raised to believe I had to get married, so I went ahead and got married. So I don't think I'd feel the brunt of the pain that most people would feel.

I may be too blunt when I write, but I am intentionally, usually, because usually no one else is. And I have a lot more knowledge of people and human nature and logic than many people here; so it grates to be told I'm simply dumber than them. So I'm wondering if I'm just too caustic and blunt to be here; maybe this place is - and should be - more about hand-holding and commiserating. I certainly know that I need it a lot.

The only thing that happens, at least for me, is it makes me have less respect for the people who felt qualified to cut me down. Their loss. I was downright mean, I guess. Sometimes, I just get to where I've had enough of bullies and sanctimonious twits, and have to call them out.

I thought I was saying something that made sense, that was logical, that it would help, but I guess since I don't really spend time over there with BSs I'm not used to having to tread so lightly and realize that the nerves are so raw. I'm an awfully blunt person, so I think I really should stay away from places like that - I'm just not...sensitive enough. I guess I really need to address why I have such a strong need to be needed and helpful and appreciated.

I feel good helping everyone else, but every time I try to slow down and look at myself I start to panic. So I've been avoiding any of that. That's my fear speaking, and my inherent belief that I don't count as much as other people.

I really have never worried about physical violence. My issues are more about him looking down on me, me not getting respect from him. I have such a severe need to be respected and thought well of, and it is the one thing he's consistently used against me, that it is my number one trigger point for me. He is always right. Therefore, everything I do, unless he directly told me to do it, is always wrong. Lots of disapproving looks, little looks of disgust, like, boy are you stupid.

I rarely get angry, rarely even speak, actually, except to get things done.

Sorry, I don't understand this. If he wants me to feel his love, why does he ignore almost everything I say? Because he thinks I'm ignoring him? 80% of all our time together is spent discussing him and his issues. How am I ignoring him?

Really? You honestly ask for hugs? That is so alien to me. I don't think I have ever in my entire life asked anyone for a hug. I have hugged people, but I've never said 'can I have a hug.' People do that? It sounds so wooden.

You're right that it may not occur to him that I want sympathy, I guess. The first couple years we were married, I'd end up in tears on a regular basis. At first, he tried to apologize or hug me or whatever. After a couple years, he told me 'you're just trying to make me feel sorry for you. That makes me mad.' And he never responded again. I guess this is just an offshoot of that.

wifetobe, thanks for posting, but I'm not sure I understand the point you're making. Does this address what happened this morning or something else? Sorry for being so dense!

You betcher patootie I ask for hugs! If I didn't, I'd never get any!

Poor guy one time said the reason he walked away when I was crying was us the things he was saying weren't helping. In tears I said "But you weren't hugging me!" He got it then... for a little bit... still gotta ask, if I really want them. He doesn't know that's what I'm implying unless I come out and say it.

Asking for a hug doesn't feel wooden if you use a bit of good old fashioned Southern charm... bat your eyes a little...

Or you could just sigh and say, "Ya know what would really help right now? A hug. Could you just hold me for a second?"

When I was in ICU I could *feel* DH lending me his strength when he would hold my hand. I could feel mom and sis sapping my strength just when they were in the room. You can bet I called for DH every chance I could. He hates physical contact, but I think his physical contact saved my life.

Maybe that's why he hates it? Maybe it saps his strength? Hmmmm....

I dare you. Ask for a hug today. Preferably from DH but if you need to start with baby steps, ask for a hug from DD18.

**************************************
Boy oh boy am I glad I'm not totally insane. LOL

You know, what is weird is that it immediately throws up red flags of panic. All my shame-based life and all. What if he says no? And he has, before. So I quit asking for anything. All goes back to talking, of course. Once I gave him great SF for a couple hours, massage and everything. So a little later, we're there watching tv, and I ask him to rub my feet a little (they never stop hurting and he knows it). He rolls over, rubs each foot about 30 seconds, and then turns away to watch tv. That's typical for us. Cos I don't talk, of course. I turn over and cry, but I don't talk. If I cry he doesn't do anything, but if I talk, he blows up and goes on one of those hour-long rants about how miserable his life is. So I've pretty much quit asking for anything and I've quit telling him how I feel.

That's a really steep hill for me. Despite any progress. But I'll try.

Now I'm concerned I'm not hearing you correctly...

I'm hearin gyou say you believe your H does not want you to feel his love and care for you; that he wants to be the only one feeling loved and cared for in your marriage, is that correct?

I can't believe you'd ask me a why question...but then I reread my statement where I said exactly what your H wants...for you to feel his love. I asked for that follow-up "why" question, didn't I?

The DJ is in ignore...reality-based language (because you are about language, so please note with care the words you use as they are messages to you) is...

he does not respond to what you say with acknowledgement and/or validation. And you don't ask him to do so, either.

However, in the last three decades you have asked him, laid the map for him...asking him to physically or verbally respond in a certain way, at a certain time, when you have shared your stuff, is that correct?

Let me go for clarity here...no censor or condemnation, 'k?

You want your H to love you in the ways, equal measure, as you love him...

You want him to hear about your day, your issues, and to brainstorm how to solve them with you...at times, commiserate, say "I'm sorry that happened to you", and other times to correct you, "Here's the best persepctive to take with that" or to give you alternatives to your perception, "She didn't mean it that way, I'm sure"? You want him to rub your feet as long as you rubbed his back; you want him to thank you in the words you used to thank him; you want him to step in when you pick up something too heavy to reasonably carry for you now; you want him to ask you what you want to do on the weekend, plan it out with you, to include both what you want to do and what he wants to do; you want him to love you in the ways you love him...

would this be close?

And if it is...would you consider how it feels to your H for you to lead the way...acting in your love language to him to show him how to make you feel loved...

(and him acting in his love language--sharing with you, pouring out all his stuff for you to know him and you not sharing back your stuff...him sharing even what he hates, where he cringes, how he feels, what he fears...and you not sharing back...and each time, you fail to share with him he feels rejected, not enough, unloved and used...putting his stuff out there...staying vulnerable, time after time...like he's being ignored, unheard, and then fixed, like he's the problem...and when you go and pick up that bag, dig that hole, without a word...he feels excluded, useless, the under-doer....and he'll only get the scraps of you, the tiny pieces of what you really can no longer do...and that's only if...he makes you feel first...then you'll share...about yourself, not him making you, failing you, ignoring you, discounting you--could each of you being loving hard and long and thoroughly in different languages?

And if you base your acts of love on getting...if I do this, then he'll do that...if I say this, then he'll say that...would you ever feel loved, either one of you, and instead experience deep failure...learn to cry silently...as does your H in the woods...not cry, stew and yearn, shame-flooded, too...

because the unspoken vow was for each of you to heal the other of crimes committed against you before you even knew of the other's existence...

You didn't acknowledge or validate way back when when your H did hold you, hug you, comfort, even uncomfortably, and then stopped...his own expectation that if he comforted you, then you wouldn't hurt anymore...and you kept hurting (like a broken promise) and if that didn't cure you, then you must be holding onto the hurt, doing it to manipulate him into feeling so badly...because he began feeling so badly...

and neither of you saw, early on, that when he hurt, you hurt...and when you hurt, he HURT...and still does...because at the bottom of your heart, you do not believe he wants you to feel happy, accepting, appreciative and in love with him...and he does.

The very act of sharing so much (hours per day, from his phone call and in person during the week) all of himself with you, is an act of love...have you shared you feel used, like a big ear, a dumpsite for his stuff? What part of that is you (not all or none) and what part is his? Would you like to know if he does that because you are in his thoughts throughout the day, "I gotta tell Cat about this...about that...oh, what will Cat say to this...or that", his focus, his highest pleasure and pain...his number one?

Shame-based living takes living through another...and wanting through them what we REFUSE to give to ourselves, do for ourselves...like self saying, "Don't pick up that bag just because you used to do so. Allow love in, Cat. Ask for someone else to figure out how to get it where you want it. Move aside to feel loved...through acts of service."

Shame-based thinking tells us we are unworthy of love and deserve to be happy...putting us in a double-bind, and those how love us in one, too. Yes, our children, too.

Double-binds say...if only you do, I'll feel...what if he reacts...if only he wouldn't, then I would...these internal negotations which distract from simply acting from love and NOT doing that which you will resent.

Stopping the massage at the point where you stopped enjoyed every minute of it. There's a line crossed over...from acting from love and then pleasing, instead. Get to know your lines...your H would LOVE to hear about that line, where it begins, where it kicks in and begins to kick at your love for him.

Hidden expectations/DJs are Shame's best friends. End that relationship, 'k? Be aware of it. You are half of being loved...not just YOUR choice to act from love...letting the response go...your half of letting love in...

fearing being swamped, coerced, found wanting/lacking, feeling judged, taken over or abandoned...scary stuff. And remarkably, all the things your H fears, too...

and sees you doing to him...and other humans doing to him...

maybe he is the leader, Cat, showing you how you really interact with the world, this mirror, instead of the one you show him.

I did the most damage to my beloved when he stopped reflecting me as I wanted, when I wanted him to and in the way I wanted him to reflect/define me. I did horrific acts from fear to get him to reflect me differently. I'm asking you to stop, as I did, with these books, these thoughts, seeing just our part, not the all, laying down blame, sticking solely to listen and repeat (not fix and sympathize) for a week, cleansing myself to really catch hidden expectations and the constant hum of shamed thoughts...not to get him to reflect me differently...

to know my DH. Really know him...no assumptions, no DJs, which took me NOT opening my mouth when I could not do so without judging...the reverse for you, Cat. To open your mouth and speak your stuff...ask what you've assumed...and let the response go.

To state your intent is to own it...to apologize tonight for the DJ from the morning...NOT because he might hurt or fear...BECAUSE that's not who you are...you do not accept lies, and you lied outright saying "Yours trumps mine" which assumes why he shared what he shared, makes his stuff fact...and degrades discounts and dismisses you.

And your hand is on that gun.

Lay it down.

"I shared something personal...I've been your slave in mind for 30 years...I did this and I'm not going to do it anymore. It's disrespectful, not reality and not possible. Because you said I manipulate you with tears, I have hid my tears from you. See how I trick myself? You say and I do...that's where I make you my master instead my mate. I did that. I cry. Sometimes I cry from fury...I get so furious sometimes. Sometimes I cry from stress, feeling overwhelmed inside. Sometimes I cry from lack...I'm so focused on what you're not doing/being, as if you could cure me of what I refuse to even do for myself.

What I want most right now is to cry in your arms, my refuge; for you are. Not my master and not my child. You really have been, are and will be my partner, my best friend, my rock."

I fear how much he is your ocean when he is no longer there. When your ocean is gone. When your perspective takes a huge hit...and he's not sharing with you (too much instead of not enough), when there's silence, emptiness, gone is him ignoring, criticizing, chastizing, ranting about world wrongs...

and gone is his being there.

Ask and you shall receive...or state and own. "I'm thinking of being in your arms, having you pat my back for two minutes, and hear your voice telling me you're sorry I'm going through this right now, and that you're with me."

And you do not comfort without asking, as the balance. "I hear you were really scared and angry signing that paper today. I want to come and put my arms around you and tell you I'm sorry you're experiencing that right now, and that I'm with you all the way, would that be okay?"

Respect is part of loving honestly...kill those assumptions (EVERYBODY KNOWS THIS IS LOVE)...when many, many have experienced these assumptions as manipulation, giving to get, tit for tat...now what do I owe for this moment of comfort? I don't know how much, if I have it in me or not...or when my debt will be collected.

Fear-based love IS shame-based love...masquerades. Him feeling manipulated by your stuff was to show you how into your stuff he was...know today that wasn't you manipulating...that was his experience. That's valid. No wonder you feel so ignored...do that resentment timeline and write these times down...and see where you ignored your own stuff...where you took HIS feelings and make YOU the cause...and THEN YOU RESENTED HIM for your resulting feelings...doubly compounded.

And then you changed YOUR ACTIONS based on HIS feelings...won't be crying in front of him anymore...I will lie and you made me lie...in essence, think about it...and free yourself of that resentment. You made it up. You conjured it, felt it, fed and grew it into a monster consume your own happiness...and you know what? That's what I did...and resentment/entitlement became my real master, through a lack of respect.

Your H does not ignore you...he is consumed by you...eating you up in reflecting him...and you eating him up...all over each other's stuff and you can't see your fingerprints for pointing with them.

This past weekend, you didn't make his choices just about you...you sorted them...his choice to go the woods first wasn't making you last...you made his digging the holes about you, acts of love...so you experienced enjoyment, relief, acceptance and acts of service...so you shared...made your choice to share based on his actions, attitude...

made it about him...not you...not your vow to yourself to respect your H...to honor your marriage...nope, just him...him earning your openness and honesty by acting right...and BAM, he acted wrong...said the wrong thing.

Don't try to fix the mechanics of this interdynamic...change your primary belief that humans are capable of earning love.

We aren't. We cannot ever earn love.

We are love.

LA

It's not what if he...

it's what will I do when...

If you are crying, hold yourself to stating why...OWN it. "I am hearing in my head all sorts of H did this and ignored me...he said that...and it hurt because I took it to be about me..." Say what you're hearing...and pre-determine what you will do if he...blows up...Hold your hand up and say stop...No. Ouch. I will listen to your reactions tomorrow. Tonight, I want you to hear what's in my head, too. This is new. You don't have to fix my thoughts, match them, or even share your own stuff. Not tonight. I want to do this many, many of our nights together. This is the first one."

And if he continues, YOU WILL...state and remove for 20 mins? Same boundary enforcements...not manipulative. This was the hidden promise you made with yourself..."I will only if HE doesn't/does"...stop bs'ing yourself. Know your hidden promises...and he's not making them...he doesn't even KNOW the extent he fails you, minute by minute...and I think he needs to know. He needs to know you subjugate yourself, then feel shame-filled and lacking. He doesn't want that power...we aren't equipped as humans to begin to really know control over another person...for to do that is to BE controlled by the other.

Yech.

Do it, anyway. You can...cat has your tongue isn't real...wasn't real when folks use to say it...Cat has a tongue, a voice, a self; she's real, and really whole. Stop manipulating your H. (Yes, manipulation is going on..."I don't do so he won't do" is the SAME as "I do so he will do".)

You know this...in yourself already...it resonates. Not how you thought you were living, loving...or maybe you do know this and want to keep earning love and punishment? You know that way like the back of your own hand. I respect it's your choice what you believe...how you really believe human love works...and I have no doubt like others on this board, if you act from earning, you won't feel loving feelings as result. You'll feeling deserving, instead.

Your choice.

LA

Cat,

I haven't read all of the responses you got, but some of the things you said triggered me. Specifically, about the arthritis and that your feet always hurt. I wouldn't say he had the proper responses, but I might understand a bit about how he's thinking.

If these pains are common, then it probably drives him crazy that he can't fix it. Guys typically don't fully understand what it means to be sympathetic for something like this, but we do know how to fix things. So when we can't fix things for our wives it's gets frustrating. Very frustrating, and we just don't want to deal with it anymore. We know that you're hurting, but we can get to the point where we just don't want to hear about it. Even if we do know how to be symathetic, we don't get the same sense of satisfaction about it.

I gues what I'm saying is that his response may be less about not caring about you, and more about his own frustration about not being able to fix it. Understandably, it's hard to see that, and of course, instead of stating his frustration, he takes it out on you. It's hard to admit that it's frustrating, it almost sounds horrible to say.

I don't think that means you don't tell him about it, but asking for a hug or similar could help you and give him some sense that he's helping to 'fix it'. And I know he responded bad to rubbing your feet, but if he could understand that rubbing your feet makes you feel so much better, then perhaps he's fixing it. Perhaps it's like maintaining the problem, just like how he maintains the yard in a way.

He likes to work on the forest because he can fixed that. To me it seems like helping you with that can a similar thing for him if he can feel like he's getting somewhere with it.

Although he does need to understand sympathy better (so do I), and I could be way off on what he's thinking/feeling. I don't know.