Catperson, I enjoy reading your posts. You show amazing insight and usually come up with new angles I hadn't considered. I have to disagree with you on this, though.

The children are entitled to visit their father and NEED to visit their father. This isn't an "hour long fix", it's visitation which is a good thing and should be encouraged.

Also, we have no way of knowing what might have happened if T2L had done her Plan B differently. Nobody can say if she'd done X, he'd be home.

She really has no right to keep him from the home. It's HIS home too and legally he could enter if he so desired. She's staying out of sight as much as possible and he's pretending to respect her boundaries while pushing them to see if she'll give. I don't know that she really *can* do much other than ask him not to contact her. She's lucky he respects her desire for him to stay out of the house or out of the garage, and to visit only on certain days.

I do agree that her Plan B is not dark. She knows way too much about what he's doing and he knows too much about her. But with children 18 and 10 news of activities, conversations, and attitudes is going to leak. I'm not sure how that could be handled while encouraging interaction between WH and the kids.

I wish she could be darker but I'm not sure how it could be accomplished.

I agree, Turtle.

I think that things are going as well as can be expected at this point, and am delighted that WH has resumed visiting the kids again. That's not a fix - that's a vital part of life no matter whether there's a R or not.

Also, the idea of taking them to the Barf Shack, the only other likely option for WH, is unthinkable. CA is not a state that would even consider keeping the kids away from the Hag, and T2L is so blessed that so far he hasn't tried to push that.

As I already told T2L, she needs to do all she can to tighten up her PB when he visits. But I would far FAR rather have him parked out on the street in front of the house, and for T2L to have to do some creative work to keep dark, than to have him start pushing to have them overnight at the Lust Lair.

He is going to continue to try and get his fixes - both of T2L and the inside of the house. Clearly, he's addicted to the garages, too, lol. IMO, that is the main line that needs to be held. Keep him on the outside, and I think that any damages from house fixes will be minimal. And even if there is a delay in the end of the A because of the very small outside house fixes, much better to have that than to subject the kids to his other legal alternative.

T, do you suppose you could train your dogs to bite him? Oh, that might be an LB...

Try - There are some key points here - he has visitation with his children, but you should not be giving him YOUR sandwich order - that allows him to meet an emotional need and that is the fix YOU can prevent.

Also - when your children mention that they talked with him about a Valentines gift - you should teach them that "Daddy needs to think of these things on his own and I don't want any "gifts" from him until he comes home - and ends all contact with SeaHag!"

There is much more you can do to stop him from getting a release on his guilt valve. Stop receiving ANYTHING from him that doesn't go to the care of the home his children live in. Period.

Ello Luv!

I see what you are saying , makes a lot of sense, but my H will not use the IM's. My IM's are aware of it but nevertheless I still send visitation schedules and financial schedules and any other information "TO" him THROUGH the IM channels.

I cannot force an individual to use the IM's BUT I can however choose to use them on my end, in my control. Plan B says to use them so I am. It doesn't however say in the book to force them too. You see all one can do is follow the best they can and as closely as they can to follow the book. I was told today by a wise bird to do the best you can and don't get stuck on things when they don't go as expected. All WS's are the same and all stories are going to vary a little here and there. I follow as best I can to the Plan. I dont condemn myself if its not perfect and keep going right back where I left off. Not excuses I just give myself grace so I can do this as long as I can. I have no excuses. I am doing my best and following my heart in what I feel needs to be done. I have in no way give Mr. T2L me on a silver platter. He basically has no access to me, other than the planned sink fixing. He cannot come in my home although I did have 1 issue and it was completely my fault for not telling DS10 but now he knows.

I feel to choose my battles wisely and I think that the IM issue is not the battle that is most important to me. I use them. He is getting his schedules and abiding by them. He is depositing the finances and bring me W-2's and things of that nature when he was notified by through the IM's of those issues. He is cooperating with whatever is asked through the IM's he's just not saying OK to them. I have noticed that some WS use the IM's and some do not. Mine does not, but that's not a big surprise to me LOL. I actually expected it. Most women have to get LSA's, their kids have to go to the OW/OM place, they get no money or very little but I do not. H has given me money to stay in the home, keeps us on the insurance, and has said so far he will not make kids go to their place. I see that as pretty fortunate.



My son MUST see his father on his visit days. He has experienced much anxiety, sadness and fear because of this and when he sees his father he does much better. He has been in touch with his father again and now last night he made it 3/4 of the night in his own bed. I don't feel his visits are fixes. I will not stop DS10 from seeing his dad. I am not apart of their visits. And unfortunately the park behind the house is public too. Can't make him leave there either. If they need to meet in the park to visit fine, but DS10 MUST see his father and DS10 absolutely hates the SEA HAG and has begged me to make sure he does not have to go there. What would any mother answer to that? I said I will do everything in my power son. Whats in my power is to allow visits behind the park so they can see each other and H does not push to get DS10 to spend weekends in the Sea Hag Den. State of Cali won't help me a bit there.








I have no excuses, I listen to all the input, pray about it, weight it out, sometimes get counsel and then go with my gut feeling on what to do. I guess they probably do sound like excuses, but they are choices actually and hopefully you will all still accept and respect me even through it. This is what I feel. I'm just gonna throw it out at y'all and hope you'll still love me and post anyways. SAA is the framework of recovering the marriage. Its a stinking awesome book from beginning to end. It makes perfect sense and there is no other book i know that can get you from start to finish. Its brilliant. But I also feel like CarolH's thread she used SAA and implemented within that also Divorce Remedy. It worked, but it was not to a "T" SAA. I know that God uses the simple things to confound the wise. I am following my heart believing God is using this forum, my IM's and my own heart to guide me. I cannot be so stiffed neck that God cannot even deviate me to add something new to recover my marriage. My H was a good man, he is lost and I'm gonna try my best to do what I can. I am not making independent decisions. I am praying, I talk with my IM's, I listen to you all and on occasion I mention it to my pastor. SAA is the framework, yes it should be followed as close as possible with just a little room for God too.



Weakness is not my forte....LOL I am a person of strength and so is my H. I know just way to use my strength. Its not always what seems strength. Sometimes holding your peace is strength. Sometimes love is strength. I guess its just the way you may view it. My H knows its a new day and he cannot just walk in. He knows I will not take him back or let him spend the night with out the OW out of the picture. He knows this and weakness could have never given him that picture. Son told me a bit ago that dad said it was ok if mom didn't want to let me in we will just go to the park. Now he could have gotten nasty but he didn't he cheerfully suggested to meet in the park.

Yes I do see that I am getting feedback that H is getting a fix by being around the house. I refuse to go out and throw him off my property in front of my children. My H has so far agreed to not bring the kids around the Sea Hag. The only way for him to visit is to meet them locally here and the other problem is he has no personal car, he gave it to me. So when he visits he drives him company vehicle and the kids are not really allowed in that vehicle so that is why they meet alot of the time in the park behind the house or IF DD18 is here she will drive the both of them to a different location. So if he parks in the street, which is public property BTW, It doesn't bother me as much as it did previously as long as he does not go to the garage and come in then its fine. He's outside and I'm away where he has no access to me.

I don't know that if I had done anything differently if H would have come back already. Actually I think that he would not have. There are some things aside of the affair that he needs to work through and schoolbus nailed it on what she said and her suggestion to a 2nd PLB. This PBL will different from the last and will be almost verbatim of what schoolbus has said. I think all in all I have done ok. Not perfect but H really has not had much access to me in 3 months. 2 occasions and I stayed gone or out of access even then.

I keep going and working the plan the best I can.

But I love love love y'all!

T2L,

Reading through your thread, I think you did a SPOT ON plan A and your plan B is as good it can be with children involved. One area that I don't quite agree with is the dark, dark plan B when children are under middle school age or so. To do a dark plan, you need to cut off all contact and with young kids, I think it is next to impossible without jeopardizing the BS position in divorce proceedings.

I think you've done a great job walking the line with DS10 by trying to sheild him from Sea Hag yet still letting your WS be a part of his life. I'm thinking your husband's actions are starting to show he's not commited to Sea Hag in the long term. I think if he was, he would have started pushing for overnight visitations and starting to integrate her into DS10 life. Plus, he's still supporting you financially. To me, if he was serious about walking away for good, he would have done more to separate him from you as well as push for overnight visitations.

Yep, I agree.

And this PB will just keep getting tighter. Each time he does succeed in getting a glimpse that wasn't planned - unlike the sink thingy, or if something happens like DS inviting him into the garage, it's just taken care of so it doesn't happen again.

There will be no more sammiches, lol, and every effort will be made to be securely out of sight at the beginnning and end of the visits. The rest will take care of itself with time.

Also, the VD presents the kids were discussing with their dad were what they wanted to give her. Since T2L is a SAHM, she and the kids are currently dependent on WH for every penny. They can't get her a present for anything at this point, without getting the money from him. This was not about WH getting her a present, but about him loosening his purse so the kids could get something.

Why?

T2L set up very adequate visitation schedules for the kids to see their dad, much more generous than they'd get in a typical divorce decree. Had WH chosen to follow it, and had T2L stuck to it, the kids would be feeling very secure knowing the times and days and hours they would get to see their dad. They would not be feeling like just a pawn in their parents' power struggle.

This way, it is a day to day free for all on when dad feels like coming to this side of town, when he feels like calling the kids, and it's all done on his terms. Just like he wanted last fall when she went dark. She has basically regressed to give him exactly what he wanted - the ability to call the kids whenever he wants, the ability to see them whenever he wants, and the ability to see them INSIDE THE HOUSE! Because he does exactly what he did pre-D day - nudge, nudge, nudge, one give-in at a time, until he has it set up exactly the way he wants it. Because he knows T2L's a pushover and he knows she will put her kids' happiness ahead of her own. So bottom line, he has won. He gets to scr&w Toad; he gets his fix of wife by geting to hang around the house once again; and he gets to see his kids at his desire - or not - resulting in his son's prolonged and increasing stress and self-loathing. The way it is now, it is back to total WH control, and the kids are once again at his mercy. If he's mad, he ignores the kids. If he's getting what he wants (eating inside the house, parking in front of the house, shopping in the garage...), the kids get to see him more because he's reveling in his success.

Sure, D10 may be feeling a little better right now, but at what cost? Now, T2L is obligated to keep keeping WH happy, because if she doesn't, he stops calling the kids, and D10 blames her first, and then blames himself. (I'm not good enough for dad to want to keep seeing me)

So in the long run, WH has NO reason to leave Toad. So D10 will now be stuck forever in the 'please dad' limbo, and it is becoming part of his core being - Because I have no control and I don't get what I want unless I keep the people I love happy, I will never find happiness in life unless I give up who I AM.

I promise you, T2L, this is what your son has learned. I watched it happen to my brother. And me. It sucks. Your son learned to lie so as to not have to face his dad when he was hurting, because he was afraid his dad would leave HIM, TOO, like he did you, if he displeased his dad. So he'd rather have his sister lie for him than tell his dad the truth - that he didn't like what his dad was doing.

NOW, he has learned that as long as he keeps making things good with his dad - and giving him whatever he wants (visitations HIS way, not asking for anything, etc.), he gets his dad; if he doesn't, he doesn't get his dad. This unstructured visitation schedule, and the slipping of your boundaries day by day, are killing your son's belief in doing things the right way.

WH is not happy. Not by a long shot.

I think T2L is doing an amazing job. And I think her kids are doing a great job reminding Mr. T2L that his role is back in the home as a H and F.

He misses this!

And I'm envious since my WH wants nothing to do with me or the kids or our house. He wants closure from us all.

But Holy, T2L's husband has abandoned his wife and children for another woman..the same as yours...he is giving his family CRUMBS..whereby they deserve a FEAST..I, too, remember holding on to my H's CRUMBS..I wish I had not..IMO, it's the same or worse as NOTHING AT ALL..

I came to the point of trying to pretend that my H did not exist..that was best for ME...and the point of PLAN B, IMO...

I don't think we should clap or be happy for T2L about what her H is doing..all BULLCRAP..him trying to use her to make his affair easier for HIM...

The Australian family courts have had new laws passed and they are having a field day "appeasing" everyone and acting on behalf of the children.

The current generic order sees the kids spend 7 days with mum and 7 days with dad on an even rotation, through holidays, school and life.

The family courts are currently filled with desperate parents trying to put their children first and the courts trying to prove that they are fair to the children by splitting the care evenly between parents, even when it is not appropriate.

I don't know what laws apply to you T2L, but I agree 100% that the relationship that your children form with their dad is paramount to their happiness in life. They may not have been the perfect husbands, but when the WH tries to be a great dad and the kids so desperately need that contact, the BS should compromise.

WS's twist it so Plan B looks like you are keeping the kids away from them and preventing their relationship. In the end, I was the one that was made to feel selfish for denying my WH access to the children.

My situation is not the same, I have 2 kids DD3 and DS1 and I have been on Plan C WH is making a huge effort to see the kids and knows he must be respectful of me. I choose to leave the house when he visits so that they can spend time together but he doesn't get his fix of me.

Anyway, the point is that compromise needs to be part of the plan. How can a mother justify keeping children from a loving father. I know that they are not loving husbands, but when they actively want to be there for the kids, what choice is there that does not sound like selfishness? The recovery of my marriage should not be more important than my children knowing and loving their father. I have a preference for marriage, but I will not put my needs first. My WH is not enjoying his role as part-time dad. He is far from happy in life but the choice to change is up to him. I cannot control my H or my children or anyone else, I can only control me.

It could be accomplished by her running a consistent Plan B; by refusing to bend on the Plan B rules. It could be accomplished by her showing her kids she has to be firm about this to get SOME SORT of decision from him, and then therefore repeating the mantra - we have to stick to this plan so he sees the benefit of choosing his family first.

If you read my posts like you say, you'll see I have NEVER said he shouldn't see his kids. That's ridiculous. I said that by allowing him to trample all over her wishes, and the wisdom of Plan B, the time he DOES spend with his kids is not as beneficial as it seems because it allows him to cake-eat and lets him go ever longer without making a decision. PLus, every time he sees them is ONE MORE TIME he leaves them and goes home to another woman without making a decision.

THAT is what is detrimental to his kids. What I actually said was that following the plan and not letting him chip away at it would make it more likely that he will make a decision one way or another. Of course he may choose to divorce; most of them do. But he's not doing that. He's not coming back either.

Don't you think that this hurts the kids more than if he were to make a decision? At least if they divorce, his kids will know what's what; what the future is; that he has made a decision about their mother (living with her or not), and that whether he comes or goes has nothing to do with how well they please their father. That is what is hurting the kids.

That and the fact that his seeing them is now COMPLETELY up to him - when, where, and how. At least if she stood to the Plan B and used the mods, it would take away some of the instability for the kids' sakes.

Frankly, I think they'd all be better off if he would just go ahead and divorce (no offense, T2L); IMO he's way too manipulative for T2L to ever have a decent life with him - she'll just spend the rest of her life trying to figure out how to please him, and he'll spend the rest of his life keeping her on her toes (brings not2fun to mind). And it would make more sense to the kids, and it would not urge them to blame themselves for not being good enough to bring him home for months if not years. It's already over a year; why should he ever change?

I don't agree that WS can be good parents. They are like CRACK ADDICTS....Parenting is not tops on the list...THE DRUG is..IMO, children need to be PROTECTED against them..

As a person who was on the phone with her when T2L was talking to S10 - I was so impressed with her strength, her compassion for her son, and her ability to say "No" when necessary.

She is doing a wonderful job in a most difficult situation.

There is a plan moving along.

I agree T2L is doing wonderful, though...

PLAN B is HARD..I screwed up zillions of times...

But I got lots of TOUGH LOVE here when I screwed up, though..

I needed it and appreciated it...as it is clear that T2L does...

Sorry I haven't been posting. My mother is in a health crisis, and my body isn't faring too well either.

Anyway, I have time for a brief note tonight.

To answer Neak's question, I think if a second PBL is done, it should be done the same way the first one is done - from the BS to the WS. There's been enough contact here that it wouldn't be too much involved for her to give him the letter. And she might be able to slip a little touch of a Plan A in there when she does it. Just to let him know she means what the letter says - that she can, and will, forgive him when he comes home.

Me? If I were giving him the letter, I would wait for one of those nights when he is there, lingering...when you know he wants to stay and "can't". Hand him the letter as you are closing the door, and tell him that there is a way he could stay forever. Tell him that the door you close behind him tonight could always reopen to him - and the letter he holds is the pathway home. Then close and lock the door behind you.

Keep your voice quiet, soft, honest, and calm. Tell him that you love him before you close the door.

And do not open the door that night again, unless he agrees to the terms of the letter.

You never know what his reaction might be. I haven't heard of a second PBL before, but somehow your WH seems to be in a very weak position right now and keeps turning up with reasons to be around you. And he keeps indicating and hinting to the kids that his affair has about run out of gas. But someone else said it:

PRIDE

stands in the way. Maybe he needs to be pushed. So the second letter might just be the push.

I didn't have time to read if you have already given it to him or not. If not, I hope it turns out the way you want it to. I liked some of the ideas about letting him know that God still loved him.

I always tell people who are having a crisis in faith that they may have lost faith in God, but God still believes in them and has faith in them. God never wavers.

I think that is a very handy trait to have in a God.




Hang in there T2L. You are doing a great job in the situation that has been handed to you.

BTW, I read somewhere that if you want to get rid of SeaHags, you just hire the Argonauts.

SB

Ok..maybe not WONDERFUL..as well as can be expected in a difficult situation...

For marital recovery to happen with such a cake-eater, it's important that she remain as DARK as possible..

Plus, it is likely TRUE..sad to say.. that her WH is USING the children to some extent..they are TRULY ALIENS..main goal and priority being THE DRUG..as I said before..

But, SB, as MORTARMAN would say, THIS is the TIME to BE DARKEST..when he is WANTING HER is the time to be DARKEST...

The WS has to SUFFER, SUFFER, SUFFER..HURT, HURT, HURT..to come around..

Any PAIN RELIEF will PROLONG THE AFFAIR...

This certainly was the case for my H..sent him running back to her EACH TIME..

Steve told me to ONLY GIVE after HE GAVE and only A LITTLE..only a SPECK of LIGHT..

100% agree ... WH is using the children to stay in contact with the "nagging" "bossy" "controlling" wife he couldn't wait to leave :RollieEyes:

There is a plan afoot.

And in case anyone wonders ... she still loves WH .... so she's not ready to throw in the towel.

Yep...