IMO, T2L has been working to plug the small leaks that have occurred, and sailed through the planned breaks.

IMO, the visitation with the kids needs to continue as is. Whether he uses the IM's or not, he is receiving the visitation schedule and abiding by it. I don't feel it's in the best interests of the kids to be cut off from their dad, since he's not acting in the same over-the-top destructive way he was before. A court would be far more lenient with visitation, and would care nothing for any fog he might be in, as long as he wasn't unsafe. Kids should never be asked to PB their parent. If they choose not to see them, fine. But they should not be encouraged to cut them off.

IMO, T2L is going to need to work the most on her thoughts. She does dwell too much on WH and what he's doing. That will take some time, and much effort. I have alot of confidence that she will do it.

Awe thanks PM! I gonna keep fighting and standing. I know God is chasing him....LOL....cuz I pray Lord chase him with vengeance and sqeezed everything out that needs to go LOL. Thank your DH too for the prayers.

I agree and I have been standing in the gap and asking for God's grace upon my H as I know he was in a place of accountability so I ask for grace all the time. I know the word says "Where sin abounded grace did much more abound." Rom. v: 20.

I also think that the 2nd PB letter is going to address things that H may be running from and it is a letter of grace. Not of weakness but of grace.

Oh how very sweet of you to come on. I am sorry to hear your mother isn't feeling well. Take care of yourself too.


I like that and I think I will use it. And gonna mail one to the bark shack in a nice pink envelope 1 day ahead since the Sea Hag may check the mail too!


Yes I have used a lot of what you suggested, in fact quoted you. I have not posted it yet. Just need to go over it again and then maybe i will post it.



LOLOLOL Oh that's how you do it! No wonder it hasn't worked I just kept throwing water on her waiting for her to scream I'm melting...LOL J/K wish I could tho!

T2L, I think you are doing a fabulous Plan B. Having kids means complete darkness just isn't realistic. Fortunately yours are old enough to go out to the car on their own, but he's still going to pick them up and drop them off. You're going to hear from the kids about stuff he says and does, and likewise he is going to hear about you. That can't be helped. It's far more important that your children know it's okay (and necessary!) for them to love both of their parents and be involved with both of their parents.

To answer your questions, I did not do a Plan B. I didn't even know about MB until contact with OW had almost ceased completely. Here's a very quick breakdown of my story, it was fortunately a very short lived long distance EA. I don't remember exact dates any more and that's a good thing.

Jan 2002 - H told me he'd emailed old girlfriend
Feb 2002 - H told me he was in love with GF
I instinctively did Plan A
Apr 2002 - contact began diminishing, EA died a natural death
May or July 2002 - NC was established but no NC letter was ever written, just happened.

Joined MB around this time.

Transparency was very slow in coming and while H read through some SAA with me we never even shared our questionnaires. He didn't like any of it but he did read some of it with me, to make me happy. I didn't force the issue, I was lazy. I was also scared of driving him away by "making" him do the exercises and examine our M and our issues.

I felt unsafe emotionally due to lack of transparency and failure to follow through with "recovery by the book". I lived like this, out of fear, for far too long. Or maybe I expected too much too soon, I don't know. I became involved in an EA with a co-worker but I honestly couldn't tell you when it ceased being a friendship and began being something more. Maybe June 2003? NC was Oct 2003 with no "I love you" or similar ever having been exchanged. I just knew my attraction to OM was unhealthy for my M.

DH has never been "on board" with MB though he has read a couple of the books. Even though we've never done "recovery by the book" I know he's completely open to me now as am I to him. He shows me daily through his actions that my security, safety, happiness, and well-being come before his own. I try to do the same for him, but I fall short sometimes. I'm a more self centered person than he is.

lol, T2L, is this your subtle way of suggesting my advice is not valid? I'm quite sure you know I have not experienced infidelity, I say so all the time. I prefer to think my value is to keep people aware of the psychological aspects of their situation, since that is my forte and is, more often than not, pretty accurate. For example, I guarantee your son is not telling you everything he is feeling, because it is an adolescent boy's 'duty' to protect his wounded mom. I also know he is building up his adult personality through this experience. And I'd be willing to bet money that he will become one of two types of people you see on here when he's an adult - someone who buries his hurt and hurts (or uses) other people, or one who seeks to please everyone and gets trampled on a hundred times because he won't be respected because he won't stand up for himself.

And that's assuming he doesn't have even stronger issues. (based on today's announcement that he finally was able to sleep in his own bed)

The point I keep trying to make but apparently am not getting across is that you can let your kids have time with him now on his terms and you may be stuck doing this for the next 5 years, to their detriment, or you can make a stand and get it decided one way or another by moving back to what you had early November.

But that's cool, that's what this forum is for - hear what you want to hear, ignore the rest. You guys don't want to consider that things could be changed - your choice. Your life. No one wants to hear so, like I said, I'll bow out of your thread.

Leaving you with one thought:
Have you ever sat down and made a list of what ENs he's getting from her and what he's getting from you guys? I'd be curious to see what you think is happening.

I get that you're planning another PBL, but have you planned what you will do when he once again thinks he will just walk all over it? Like he did with this one? And to which you gave in? If you're not willing to stand up to him, and ask the kids to help you in this, the only thing a second PBL will do is CONVINCE him that he will never have to listen to you again. This reminds me of taking only half your dose of antibiotics, and then the next time you need them, they don't work at all because you didn't wipe out the aggressor the first time.

Anyway, good luck.

I must not be writing correctly. None of you are getting what I keep trying to say. What I said was that she needs a position of strength. To say that schedules will be handled through IMs and then use ONLY the IMs. Or else say in the PBL that schedules can be handled through the kids and then stick with that.

The problem is that she says one way, he says another, and she says ok.

If she's not willing to practice tough love re: the kids and the IMs until he's willing to use the IMs, then she needs to restate her boundaries. Because I guarantee that right now he is pretty darned pleased with himself that he has trampled over every rule you've tried to make.

It is THAT mentality - and your response (ok, just one lunch inside the house; ok, just one look through the garage; ok, it really doesn't matter to me that you're parking back in front of the house even though I said it hurts me) - that is going to feed his EN for controlling you, and is going to prolong the affair, thus hurting your kids more in the long run.

T2L, I never did Plan B. In fact, I didn't know about MB until we were into recovery, and it has been a Godsend for me.

I believe (based on personal knowledge of myself) that Plan B would have been a HAVEN for me. My kids were older though-- the youngest was 16.

I think you're doing great on your Plan B compared to some that I've seen since coming to MB.

As far as the damage to your children, even if you went completely BLACK, there will still be residual damage, but you know what? God can heal even that. I've seen in my own children's lives.

Caveat: No offense is intended to any non-believers with what I'm about to say:

I can see where this would seem hopeless and damaging beyond repair to a non-believer, because there would be nothing to fall back on, except their belief in their own self-worth, society's beliefs and pop psychology. However, T2L, with your strong faith, firm foundation and trust in God, everything changes.

T2L has stated that she doesn't plan to continue like this indefinitely. Her first gol is to make it one year, and then she might consider extending it another 6 months to make it to the point where Dr. Harley says most affairs end on their own anyway.

Personally, I think this affair is already on it's way out.

What specifically are you trying to get her to do? I don't think you are telling her to force her kids to also PB their father are you?

It is hoped that a side effect of PB is to force the WS to look to the OP for all ENs. But the main point of PB is to protect the sanity of the BW. T2L seems to be coping pretty well with that, she doesn't seem to be getting so many "fixes" that she's losing it.

As far as that side effect goes, IMHO her strategy seems to be going pretty good. But I am not intimately involved with the daily happenings and private behind-the-scenes stuff - all the things that one can't realistically be expected to type into a computer. But T2L has IM who not only are on board with MB but are some of the most experienced MB vets around. And she has not 1, not 2, but 3 of them! In all the history of MB I don't think anyone has had more capable IMs.


Cat, you know I love you... If everyone in the room is saying one thing and you're saying something different, do you think it's time to re-examine things?

*hugs* cat... I hear that this is really really triggering you, and that you are identifying with T2L's DS10 from your childhood FOO issues.

I think you are smart. You may have a valid point. What *precisely* would you have her do differently?

I freaking LOVE this, SB.

Jayne, I would have her do differently what I keep trying to say, and apparently not very well, lol.

She says this; he does that. Her kids WATCH her say this and him do that. They learn that their dad, at least, and perhaps any male, does not have to respect another's wishes. That as long as he is strong enough, pushy enough, charming enough, he can get whatever he wants and no matter how it may be hurting her and causing her pain.

IMO that is what is harmful to the kids. Her kids are old enough that she can explain what she is trying to gain here - her sanity but also her H and their dad back. She can explain how people try to manipulate others, and she can explain that that doesn't mean he's a bad person, but that may be all he knows how to do - this entitlement that allows him to do what he's doing instead of having his kids as his #1 priority.

We learn by what our parents do. Period. Like I said, by watching this go on for over a year now (and honestly, do you think she is going to abide by her self-imposed time period she decided several months back and walk away from him at that point?), and by watching her continue to fudge her boundaries so he doesn't - in her own words - get PO'd and stomp off and ignore the kids, they are learning:

you can ask for what you want but if someone is not willing to give it to you, you accept that and take what they ARE willing to give you

you don't tell your loved one the truth because he stops calling you

having him keep coming around at any term he's willing to give you is paramount over retaining your integrity

you also can get what you want by saying one thing and doing another, by coercing, manipulating, or sweet-talking your way into what you want instead of just being honest and respecting yourself

you are not worth as much as your father because no matter how much you hurt or ask or cry or beg, he will choose himself over you

I'm trying to get her to see that she can set up a stronger PBL, and she can sit her kids down and tell them what she's about to do, and how it will help keep their mother sane but it will also show their dad that he has to make a choice - that the 3 of them, and especially the kids, won't just sit back and accept these crumbs while he continues to live a double life - they are worth more than that and they should expect more from their dad. She can tell them that has one last chance to get him to see all that, but it will require her looking 'mean' for a bit, because whatever boundaries she sets up in that PBL will have to STAND this time, and she may end up telling D10 "I'm sorry, but that's not how I need it to be; he can't continue to dictate how we live" (something that I believe both kids have told HER), and that may require her saying no to them sometimes when it comes to giving their father what he wants.

Think of an emotionally abusive person - that person knows how to spot weaknesses, and uses those weaknesses to get what he wants. How is what WH is doing any different?

I guess I'm trying to get people to look at the length of this. It's the length that, to me, is harming the kids the most. Just like a wife can lose her love for her H and thus may need to go to PB to retain that love after a time, a child can become broken-hearted and disillusioned and lose their love for their dad (or mom). But the child doesn't have the ability to say 'I'm going into Plan B' - they don't have the control, the parents do. They don't have the right or sophisticated brainpower to do anything but stay in pain.

Jayne, that's why I keep saying I'm bowing out - everyone else is saying something different. Maybe I'm wrong and all these red flags mean nothing. I hope so. But this 10 year old boy just now was able to sleep in his own room. Psychologically speaking, such things are huge.

ote]She says this; he does that. Her kids WATCH her say this and him do that. [/quote]

But what specifically?

She sends her msgs via the IM. There are predetermined visitation days. He meets the kids outside or down the street or elsewhere. The kids TXT their dad but so do all other kids even during PB. Unless the kids choose not to, or unless the WS has completely abandoned them.

What specifically would you have her do differently? A specific example might help.

Okay IM's check your email.

My lil munchkins know that dad can't come in the house and can't stay. They have been told. During sandwich time DS10 was told again dad can't come in, pep was on the phone listening, so he knows but he begs like all kids in his place would.

During the planned break in PB with the sink issue, DS10 begged again for dad to stay and he was again told NO dad can't stay. All other times he has asked he is told the same thing. He knows what I have asked and what the boundaries are. Visitation and parking locations are out of my control.

I'm talking about all the 'I'm in the neighborhood, can I come by' calls. All the I'm getting dinner, ask your mom if I can bring her some calls. She has said multiple times that he completely ignores the IMs. So she sends messages, they go ignored, and he calls and comes by whenever he feels like it. He no longer meets the kids anywhere else; he not only has crossed that boundary (her asking him not to park in front of her house), he is now coming into the house (through the kids' permission, of course, when T2L is not there to stop it).

Is that not what is being said?

Specifically, I would have her tell her kids she can no longer allow him to keep bending all the rules, no matter how badly the kids want to see him every available minute. I would have her tell them there's a reason she set up this elaborate system, and the only thing (IMO) that's being adhered to is that he doesn't physically see her face to face. I would have her tell her kids she needs to make a last-ditch effort to save her feelings and show him why he needs to make a decision, and for that to happen, she has to have their cooperation to quit bending the rules themselves - to quit asking her if it's ok if dad does this or dad does that - they already know she doesn't want it, yet they keep asking, and she keeps agreeing. Because she doesn't want to hurt her kids.

But IMO, what she is giving them is a fake relationship with their father. One based on manipulation, wheedling, nudging, and seeing what each person can get away with - all stuff THEY are learning. What child should have to live that kind of life with their parents? Either give up the pretense of having a Plan B and just accept whatever future he's willing to give them, or do it right.

And honestly, I think T2L is getting too much of a payoff by keeping it this way. At least this way, he's paying attention to her, he's not just outright rejecting her. As long as she has some sort of control over his access to the kids (asking her permission to ignore the PB), she is still getting about as big of a thrill as she can expect. If she were to push harder, he is likely to balk and divorce - as she herself has admitted. So she is keeping her marriage AND her kids in limbo.

Thanks cat.

There are some specific suggestions in there that IMHO are worth considering, at least. I think T2L is doing an awesome job, BTW, but the specific things such as allowing him to simply call up and ask to come by, is there a reason for that or could that be tightened up? And I think (hope) T2L recognizes the mistake with the one sandwich incident. And the pizza thing - I think that was a misunderstanding and a prolonging of the planned sink episode, right? So hopefully no more meals provided to T2L by WH, right? Cus we know he has that hero complex.

I think those are the main things that you mention that T2L actually has control over, right? No more meals and no more spur-of-the-moment visitations?

There is the situation with the 2nd PBL. I happen to think that's called-for in this case. This is somewhat different, but there have been cases where someone had a false recovery and wrote a 2nd PBL. So it isn't unheard of, just a different goal with this one. And I trust SB.

So delivering the 2nd PBL will require contact if I understand. Maybe after the delivery of that would be a good time to enforce the no spur-of-the-moment visitations and no meals.

I wouldn't be heartbroken if MrT2L missed a visitation on account of refusing to read the IM's mail.

Is it uber importante T2?

I'm having troubles with yahoo. I can see the messages there, but it says "sorry for the inconvenience" when I click on them.

Stoopit yahoo.

Since having an actual copy of the visitation schedule mailed to him and not just email, H has been abiding by them.

The sandwich thing won't be done again and he had to go eat it with DS10 at the park. Yeah the pizza thing was part of the sink repair and was kinda out my control. DS10 did beg me to eat with them but I did not. Grabbed a few slices and ate in my room. As soon as H was done eating he split back to the garage as he knew he was not wanted by me in the house.

Yup and I thought had seen other times where a 2nd PB letter was done because of false recovery or breaks in PB's. I think now visitations are going well to the schedule. He now informs the kids oh this is my day I will see you on this day. There is no more questioning as he now refers to his hard copy.

Hi Kimmy!

What are ya talkin bout gurl?? Whats that mean?

My apologies, then, T2L, because I remember seeing you say he won't have anything to do with IMs, that he often calls and says 'I'm in the neighborhood can I come by (and it seems like that was only a few days ago)', and that he has asked you on at least 2 occasions if he can spend the night. These are the things that were sticking out in my mind.

I really feel torn about this whole discussion. Partially because I'm in my own plan b and because I try very hard to stick to it, I miss my H very much.

I think it can be more difficult with kids, but I guess as I read your posts, T2L, sometimes I feel like you are living only for the recovery of your M and I think your WH knows it.

He financially supports You, not just your kids, so you are still His (does that make sense?) You seem to still be holding up your end of the marital bargain (I'll stay home with the kids and take care of everything in the house), but he has not kept up his. So, you may stick to your vows, but are there other agreements that you now have the freedom to change?

I guess I wonder what would your plan B look like if you said, "I need to now live as though he did not exist? I am single, but not looking for a partner." Would you work outside the home? How would that change the current dynamic.

Also, my WH texts the kids and has tried multiple times to set things up with my DD13 this way. I set limits on it (I tell her and now she tells him automatically, "that needs to go through the IM.") The reason for this is that is the boundary I set and I try to keep. Further, we have set times he has the kids. DD13 doesn't want to go and I respect that. However, he is then not going to have her other times because it is not respectful to me -- that is my time with the kids. The assumption on his part is that if we are home, we have nothing to do and he can take the kids. He gave up that freedom when he moved out. Your WH has given up that gift of time with his kids by moving out and creating two households. He now must share his time with you.
Also, I will not be put in the position of saying yes or no. We have agreed upon times that he can see the kids and that is what we try to stick to.

I guess what strikes me is he calls to stop over and his assumption is that none of you have anything to do and are available for him. I think there is a very strong message going out that you are all still living for him.

I can't shake the thought, "I wonder what T2L would be doing if he were completely out of the picture for her? What would she be doing with all that amazing energy?"

Please take this with the good thoughts and energy I am sending with it. I know this is hard, but I felt I just had to share with you what my thoughts are as I read your thread and I accept that I may be off the mark.

Take care of yourself!!!!