CutieP:<BR>Your last sentence was probably a lot closer to the truth than you want to admit. An affair doesn't have to be about sex. It is about caring and sharing and doing all the "other" things that married couples are supposed to do. If you find it more comforatable to talk to the OM or he with you, then you are in precarious position and it won't take much to push either of you over to the other side. Looks like he's already trying to cross over with the "my wife ........ etc". The fact that you guys were spending "too" much time on the computer and one of you had to be told about it, shows a little too much closeness for comfort. Be careful.<P>Professorg: Your strong, positive, christian belief is commendable, but it truly is not a barrier or obstacle to an affair. I had a relationship with a wonderful christian W who would quote bible verses and tell me how Jesus was responsible for her finding me and how the Holy Spirit filled her everytime she fantasized about me. I tried to explain to her that her strong belief in Jesus and her acceptance of adultery were inconsistent. But she tried to tell me that it was God's will that brought us together and we shouldn't be going against His will. So much for that. I guess the one good thing about this is that as soon as she began spouting her spirituality and sexuality in the same breath, I knew I was in the wrong place and I quickly retreated. She still e-mails me and tries to reignite some form of "friendship" but I'm doing my best to stay clean and travel the straight and narrow.<P>Flip

BlindSided:<P>The "right circumstances" can be just about anything. I don't mean "right" as in "the right thing to do." I mean "right" in terms of when things happen in just a certain way.<P>Nobody is claiming that their affair was an "accident." You don't accidentally decide to have sex with somebody who's not your spouse. We all understand THAT concept.<P>What people are saying is that for many affairs (at least the deeper, longer-lasting ones), there is a process of connection with the OP that occurs over a period of time. It's like dating. You become friends first, you have the attraction, you date, etcetera.<P>The difference is, I think, that most betrayers are in a frame of mind that they don't see it as "dating." They see it as being friends, and they convince themselves that it's not harming anyone. Then, they get more and more attached, over time, not realizing the depth of it all until they're in deeper than they thought. They don't want to lose their spouse, but they don't want to lose the friend either. THAT, in my opinion, is when it gets secretive and covert. Then, it's only a matter of time before the sexual element is added.<P>Yes, for some people, they can resist that sexual component. Perhaps they are "stronger" than those who succumbed. But, the dynamic is the same. I don't hold my wife in any less esteem because she failed to resist that temptation. She was human. She was in a wrong state of mind. She managed to convince herself that as long as I didn't know about it, it wasn't REALLY wrong because nobody was getting hurt.<P>My point is this: There is NOTHING wrong with having friends of the opposite sex. I have many. The trick is balancing your friendships with your marriage. For me, my wife comes first. If she told me she didn't want me to be friends with a particular woman, I'd have to respect her wishes. I can make new friends, but I can only have one wife.<P>We all need to remember that our spouse is one of, if not the MOST important person in our lives. We need to respect our spouses and let them KNOW what's going on with us, if we have feelings for another, etc. It ain't easy to do. I would never want to admit to my wife that I had feelings for another woman, but if I did, now that I know what SHE'S been through, I'm gonna do it, no matter HOW hard it is.<P>End of soap-box statement. Thanks for reading.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

I have to add my 2 cents to this as well. Fool No More - you are where I was 5 months ago. My wife had found an opposite sex friend who was giving her emotionally what I was not. There was nothing physical between them according to my wife, and I believe her. But the signs were there that it easily could have at any time. <P>The resolution was not easy. It took a long time for her to break away from him and come back to me. I had to fully commit myself to being a giver and work on her needs, not mine. I wasn't giving her affection or communication. Once I re-established those with her and was sincere, she came back to me. We are still in recovery, probably always will be, and I backslide occassionally. But I believe we're over the hump and will our marriage will survive. Read as many of Harley's books and articles as possible. As your wife to do so also. Don't force her to. That won't work. <P>Remember 2 things:<BR>1 - you get back what you give. Give her love, meet her needs, make her the center of your life. You'll get it back, in spades. <BR>2 - seek God's help and listen when God talks to you. <P>The road back is not easy. But it can be done.

Sorry it took so long for me to get back here...<P>New-beginning:<BR>I too thought it could never happen to me. I slept with the OM twice. It was over in two weeks. I was appalled and disgusted with myself. I'd wake up next to my H and start crying for hours in the middle of the night. I finally confessed about 6 months after it happened. My H was brutal. I had daily thoughts of suicide for over a year. So I'm not going to take from *anyone* how much stronger or better they think they are than me. <P>Lets see. Explanation of why I think people who have lots of opposite sex friends are passive aggressive... First, my definition of passive aggressive is a conscious or unconscious desire to hurt another person in ways that are difficult to directly confront. Keeping close friends of the opposite sex falls into this category for me, because if you confront the person they say "but they're just friends, you don't want me to have friends" etc. You come across as jealous and possessive. Noone wants to appear that way, so confronting the other person is quite difficult. Second, the existence of these other women/men in the picture is a veiled threat. It implies that if the individual is not getting their needs met by you at any given time, then another woman/man is *immediately* available to serve that need. They have removed the necessity that their primary emotional needs be met by their spouse. Most people would be very hesitant to state their true feelings under these conditions in order to resist being abandoned and replaced, as it were, by the "friend." So that is why I consider people who have lots of opposite sex friends to be basically passive-aggressive or controlling. <P>Fool no more,<BR>Even though I work around about 90% men, I wouldn't consider any of them my "friends". I don't share my personal life with them, and any outings are in a group. My H was always invited to any group functions, and many times I'd cancel if he didn't want to go. I was *temporarily* without any female friends in my new environment (for a period of about 4-5 months) because I had just moved to start school. My H was also in another state trying to sell our house. I was totally alone, and the OM filled that vacuum during a very vulnerable time for me. When I started having feelings for the OM, I was too ashamed to talk to anyone about it and just hoped it would go away. I took every opportunity I could to bring other women together, and still do, as it is very rare to just come across other women in my field. My profession can be quite isolating for that reason. I wouldn't want my co-workers wives to be threatened by me either, and that has happened before too. I go way out of my way to put them at ease and become their friends if possible.

Student, I think you are right on the money about the passive-aggressive thing. This is where MY problem started. I was very busy in spring 1998 doing movie reviews and finishing my master's degree -- that's when H started getting very friendly with his (mostly female) co-workers.<P>It wasn't until he was out 3-4 nights a week and I was done with school that I woke up.<P>My problem now is that my H knows how much this "friendship" bothers me, and I wonder if he uses his continued friendship as a weapon to keep me in line. He is very needy, very high-maintenance, and with this friendship, however much it is still going on (which is less than before) emptying massive amounts from the ol' lovebank, it makes it very hard to give him the constant affection, assurance, comfort, etc., that he needs. And I mean CONSTANT. So it's a vicious circle -- he's high maintenance. I'm running on empty. He doesn't get his high need level filled by me, so he goes running to her, which empties me further.<P>I think I need to find a new balance in the needs-filling arena, and stop caring what he does with her...but that's easier said than done.

Here's a new twist that just hit me after reading the latest posts...<P>Do you think it is harder to recover and rebuild a marriage when the opposite sex friendship is emotional in nature, not sexual? <P>If the "friendship" has developed into a sexual relationship, the threat to the marriage is clear. If it's emotional in nature, many people consider these other sex relationships merely friendships, nothing more, nothing less. That haziness is where the problem exists.<P>My W has an other sex relationship that she insists is not an affair of any sorts. Whether it has advance to sexual in nature is uncertain. But, if it is only (only!?) at an emotional state, SHE may not be reading that as anything. That I'm overreacting, acting paranoid. <P>And therein lies the problem. If the spouse involved in the other sex relationship does NOT understand that they are in fact a betrayer, you've got a HUGE hurdle to overcome before any recovery can begin.<P>Does this make any sense???<P>SORRY TO RAMBLE. REALLY BAD DAY TODAY.<P>

<BR>keystone-<P>Makes perfect sense to me. My wife had (has?) an internet thing going on with another guy. This has been going on for 1 1/2 years now and was so obviously an emotional affair to me that I could barely function because of the pain. But she wouldn't admit anything more than a casual friendship until that friendship progressed to her and him professing their love to each other. When it got to that point (AND I SHOWED HER THAT I KNEW) she finally admitted that it was wrong.<P>I'm really struggling now with several things related to this affair in addition to the circumstances that led up to her checking out of the marriage. It's rough.<P>Slightly Sane<BR>

Keystone, <P>Interesting observation. <P>I would say it's hardest to recover and rebuild when the affair is both emotional AND physical. I think the physical sometimes brings out the reality of the situation, but when sex is added the bond sometimes strengthens which makes it even harder to recover from.<P>Your point is well taken though. If sex isn't involved, I can certainly see how the betrayer is blinded by the attachment. They more than likely view it as only a friendship and nothing more. Once the line is crossed, it is as you say "clear" that a transgression has ben made. <P>I suppose most betrayers view affairs as only sexual in nature and don't realize the emotional attachment until it's too late. That's how I view what happened to my wife anyway. <P>How do you get a spouse to see a relationship as an emotional affair before it becomes a physical one? Or, how do you get them to understand the emotional affair is causing damage to the marriage without being viewed as posessive or paranoid? I wish I had answers to these questions a long time ago.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited October 21, 1999).]

Maybe the answer is....don't do anything without an enthusiastic agreement with your spouse....meaning if one of the spouse's is NOT comfortable with the friendship, then the friendship should be terminated or not pursued???

Okay, but then you risk being catagorized as "controlling". Now what?

And therein lies the problem. You cannot FORCE your spouse to live up to POJA or anything else. Either your spouse cares about your feelings regarding the friendship, or he/she doesn't.

D&C:<P>Very well put. Can't be any plainer than that. Either they care or they don't.<P>Of course, sometimes they <I>think</I> they care, and think you're being totally unreasonable. Fact of the matter is, if it's a problem for one spouse, it's a problem for the marriage. You don't wanna be labled as controlling, but you also don't want to lose control!<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Okay...you guys/gals have a point...how can you get spouse to do the POJA if they won't, and refuse to believe that there is a problem?<P>Maybe the Plan A will work here. Just keep filling her lovebank with Love Units so that she won't feel the need to get her emotional needs met elsewhere??

Yeah, but can't you see youself Plan A-ing til your blue in the face, without the knowledge that w HAS broken off from OM.<P>I don't believe that simply depositing more into the love bank is going to give you any piece of mind.

From a lady who has been there. That is a very serious situation.It happened to me about 2Yrs. ago. We were only friends, we met at work,talked on the phone, had lunch, and about after 6mths of that we ended up at a hotel room.My husband was very cold at the time but that is still no excuse. It lasted for 1 1/2yrs. At the time I wasn't a Christian but now I am and so is my husband now. It almost ruined us. I just thank God that we are still together. Even though he is still very cold, but pray for me cause I'm still HOLDIN-ON.<P> good luck,<BR> brina<P>

<BR> I think if you husband or wife refuses to<BR> give up a friend, then they are already in too deep. Thats when I have to say its me<BR> or her. If he picks her, oh well I hope she can put up with him.Now I know that nobody will agree with me on that but thats ok too.<BR> You got to stand up for what you believe in.

I guess my answer of your question is when the spouse begin to hide things and did not try to include you in her/his new friendship.<P>Like any other posters here, I've been there and what I did was that I went directly to plan B, I was the betrayed spouse, we've been married only for a month and I don't want to prolong anything by doing Plan A. I put my foot on the ground in a very earliest stage and scared the hell out of him (it's her or me. If it's her, pack your things and move out NOW. I don't deserve to be treated like this). <P>The road of discovery was long and hard but I am glad of where we both are now. Just be very careful, if their friendship concerned you, you must spell it out.<P>Saskia

Lone Star:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course, sometimes they think they care, and think you're being totally unreasonable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And that's where I think my H is. I think spouses who are in this mindset show a certain lack of empathy.<P>keystone:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe the Plan A will work here. Just keep filling her lovebank with Love Units so that she won't feel the need to get her emotional needs met elsewhere?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This has been my approach, and I have had some success. But she's still there, at least somewhat, as far as I know.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yeah, but can't you see youself Plan A-ing til your blue in the face, without the<BR> knowledge that w HAS broken off from OM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly. And at some point, particularly if the spouse with the friend knows just how much it bothers you, he/she may figure that there's a connection between the friendship and the spouse being so nice all the time, and figure it's worth keeping the friend around as a trigger. That's where I fear I am.<P>CutieP:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think if you husband or wife refuses to give up a friend, then they are already in too deep. Thats when I have to say its me<BR> or her. If he picks her, oh well I hope she can put up with him.Now I know that nobody<BR> will agree with me on that but thats ok too.<BR> You got to stand up for what you believe in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, and there's also such a think as cutting off your nose to spite your face. CutieP, I suspect you are quite young. Life isn't always that simple.<P>Saskia:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess my answer of your question is when the spouse begin to hide things and did<BR> not try to include you in her/his new friendship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From the beginning. In the early days, these people would have these parties, in addition to going out after work, and he'd never invite me. Now at least he takes me to the parties.<P>Interesting observations, as always.<P>

Dazed,<BR> No I'm not young, I'm 36 and I've loved my husband ever since I was 16.I didnt know about his friendship with the other woman<BR> at all,it was kept from me until she told me<BR> everything and sent me all the emails.If I<BR> had have known maybe I could have stopped it.I always thought it would be the girl at work or somebody else I would have to worry about.I never dreamed it would be some woman 500 miles away.I just think if you know about it, and you dont like it, then stand up for yourself and your marriage. I think the more time you let it go on, the deeper its going to get.<BR> Flipper,<BR> I take it back, I do see what you meant about your wife shouting, sometimes we have to fight for what belongs to us.<BR>

And how would you have stopped it? An ultimatum?<P>Let's look at my situation. H has this woman friend. He deals with her at work because her company does projects for his. I've expressed my displeasure with it repeatedly since December 1998. He doesn't understand why it bothers me, and refuses to end it...he CAN'T end it, because he deals with her through work.<P>By your account, what I should do is give him an ultimatum: Me or her. You decide. Now, if I did that, he'd choose me. He'd also quit his job, be unemployed, be depressed, probably have to take a pay cut, and resent me for a long, long time. In fact, he might even end up in a full-blown affair, either with her or with someone in his next job.<P>So what would I gain?<P>I think that sometimes if there's a full-blown affair, an ultimatum is a useful tool. Plan B is sort of a modified ultimatum, IMHO. That's why friendships are so much harder, because there are so many ways the spouse can justify them.<P>Sometimes you have to concede the battle to win the war.