Hello, <P>I have read through this site as well as many other books and I am still a little confused. I am not sure I am in the right place, so if I'm not please tell me.<P>My question is when does an opposite sex friendship become an affair?<P>My wife and I have been married 16 years. we have 4 children and we are both Christians. She and I were having marriage problems last year. I basically ignored her too much I think. She met this guy friend at work. I found that they were emailing each other quite often. It seems my wife is the one who keeps the friendship going. The emails are friendly but not too friendly (i.e. no talk of love for each other or sex or anything like that). <P>I noticed in the emails that she rarely talks about me. She doesn't say anything about our marriage being in trouble either. <P>I have found they call one another on the cell phone sometimes and they meet for lunch too. They might meet about once every other week or so. <P>All of this bothered me and she told me they are just friends. She told me they met at work and there isn't any thing going on. <P>Our marriage is doing better but she doesn't show me any love or attention. If we go out, it is only at my suggestion not hers. We talk a lot but she doesn't like talking about her friends. She said she wanted some of her own friends and some autonomy and space from me.<P>If you need more information about us I can provide more. I just wanted to know if this kind of friendship is OK or am I too paranoid that my wife is messing around.<P>Thank you for listening to me.<P>Fool No More

.Dangerously sounding like an emotional affair...not too far away comes the sex.<BR>I never thought my wife could but she did and is(?).<BR>Talk to your wife about your uncomfortableness with their freindship.<P>Keep posting and i'm sue others here have more experience than me.Good luck.

I don't think you're paranoid.<P>Your wife may not realize that she is emotionally attached to this guy...but she is, and sooner or later it will most likely lead to something more.<P>I don't think there is anything wrong with having opposite sex friends, but when the contact with the "friend" happens often and alone it could lead to trouble.<P>My affair started out being a close friendship...although I wouldn't have called it an affair at the time. It seemed so innocent sharing my thoughts and feelings with this other man and was innocent in my mind...I really didn't want it to lead to anything. But, I got emotionally attached to this guy and it was hard to let go.<P>If you wife isn't showing you any love or affection she probably feels that she doesn't need it from you. Her emotional needs might be getting met elsewhere.<P>I'm not saying that your wife is having an affair...I'm only speaking from my experience. Who knows, I could just be a weak person that can't have a close opposite sex friendship.<P>

Fool no more - I hate to scare you but what you describe is exactly the way my husband's affair started. When I showed concern about the time they spent together (all supposedly work related) I was attacked for being the envious and suspicious wife who keeps him from living his life to the fullest. After a couple of years he stopped mentioning her except to ask me to buy her a birthday present from him because he was too busy to shop. By that time they were hot and heavy into a year long true affair well beyong work related friendship. I was in total denial because I feared alienating him by asking any questions. During that year they spent every Sat. and Sunday together supposedly working. He didn't give me any "love and affection" and said he wanted "autonomy and space" and was very busy at work. At the same time our marriage seemed to "be going better". During this time my then closest girlfriend suggested my husband may be having an affair. I yelled at her for suggesting such a thing as I thought he had so much character and conscience he would never do such a thing. The only advice I can offer is don't be blind, work with your wife on your marriage. Please try to get her to agree to go to counseling with you to learn how to improve your marriage. A spouse in a healthy marriage does not give attention and support to a friend of the opposite sex that they could and should be giving to their spouse - your wife seems to find time for lunch dates with her male friend but never suggests that the two of you go out? Trust your instincts.

Watch out. My wife was telling me the same thing last year after 16 years of marriage. Needless to say, it became physical. You need to start talking now, because it is extremely painful once the relationship with OM deepens.<P>------------------<BR>tanker0076<BR>

Thank you for your replies.<P>Holly, When you said you didn't want it to lead to anything, why did it happen then? Were you on good terms with your husband? At what point does it lead to something more? And was there anything your husband could have done to keep you from going further than you wanted?

Fool No More,<P>Well, you've heard it from the other here. I'll just support what they're saying.<P>Both my affairs started off the same way. I was simply friends. In fact, for the second one, I didn't even think I'd be romantically involved AT ALL. But all the things that you describe about your wife and her "friend" are very similar to how we behaved at first.<P>Even if she is not emotionally involved right now (which seems rather unlikely, given the amount of time she spends on/with him), the chances of it turning in that direction are <B>very</B> high!<P>Make your wife aware of your worries. These feelings of yours are not unfounded suspicions. They are <B>concerns</B> for your marriage. Make your wife understand the difference. You are not trying to make her give up her life or whatever. You are trying to make her see that she is putting your marriage in jeopardy!<P>--andy

These replies certainly have me scared now. Maybe I have been too trusting of her.<P>Simone - In hindsight, what would you have done differently?<P>What should I say so that she doesn't blow up at me and think I'm not giving her space and autonomy?

Oy vey...another one.<P>Fool No More:<P>Read my profile. I've got the same thing with my H. Whether I still do or it's in the past remains to be seen. But it's the same deal. 15 years together, 13 years married. Spring 1998 I was finishing my master's degree and getting into writing. I'd always had my own interests, and H never seemed to mind.<P>This time, he had a whole circle of people at work, mostly women, that he hung out with. There I was, at school, writing, and only after a few months did I notice he was going out 3-4 nights a week with his friends from work, most of whom were female. Gradually, he started talking more and more about one of them, who eventually became his immediate supervisor.<P>To make a long story short, something just didn't seem right. Every time I tried to say that I wasn't comfortable with this, he got very angry and defensive. <P>Sound familiar?<P>Yeah, I've had the same deal -- check the E-mails, found nothing incriminating, nothing about me, except once -- when he lost his job and needed someone to talk to other than me (because I wasn't supportive enough, I suppose).<P>This went on August 1998 - March 1999 when I came here. Went into immediate Plan A. Stopped all outside activities, including friends. Good mood every night when I came home. Planned recreational things for us to do together. Made him the center of my universe. <P>So where am I now? Well, my H is still very self-centered (see my recent posts), but things are a lot better. Dragon Lady is still a factor, but less so. However, I still mistrust, and always will, as long as he's in contact with her (which he is, through work).<P>Your W is unlikely to give up this friendship just because you tell her to. She is probably defensive about it, because either she's had some feelings for this guy that she knows she shouldn't, or something else is going on.<P>The bottom line in these situations, and it's hard to accept, is that YOU CANNOT CHANGE WHAT SHE DOES. YOU CAN ONLY CHANGE WHAT YOU DO.<P>A book that's very helpful in these situations is HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER, by Susan Page. This book will help you change YOUR half of the interaction. When your half changes, her half will have to change, because she's used to reacting to certain stimuli, and if the stimuli are different, her response will be different.<P>Another useful site, <A HREF="http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.vaughan-vaughan.com/</A> has a "Question of the week" section, in which there's stuff about opposite-sex friends and emotional affairs. In one of these, Peggy Vaughan says that the best you can do is try to lessen her NEED for this outside contact. Plan A in this situation helps you do that.<P>Yes, the friendship is inappropriate. An opposite sex friendship that does not include you is inappropriate. An opposite sex friendship with secrecy is inappropriate. For months, my H went out with these friends, even went to parties, and never invited me. Now, we go as a couple. It's hard for me, because I despise this woman with every fiber of my being...but I'd rather go than not go.<P>That your W is not affectionate with you and that she talks about "needing space" is not a good sign. I was lucky in that my H didn't change towards me. When I'm not feeling paranoid, hurt, and angry, I feel perhaps I nipped it in the bud, before it could progress. I fear perhaps your W's friendship has made that progression, due to her distancing behavior.<P>If you can confront her in a "safe" manner, and tell her how uncomfortable this "friendship" makes you, try it and see how she reacts. If she flies off the handle, like my H does, you may have to go into this peculiar "nondisclosure Plan A" that I've been in for over six months.<P>I'd say E-mail me, but I have a rule against any E-mail contacts with the opposite sex of any kind. But feel free to ask me questions here -- I'll be happy to answer.<P>

Well said Dazed and Confused. My W made the same identical statments about "me not being so needy" and "he is only just a friend".<P>I'm glad you mentioned the book by Susan Page. I was considering ordering it and now I will. <P>As the betrayed, you have got to build yourself up, physically, spiritually and emotionally, because if you do, your spouse will notice. With my experience, good is coming from this situation.<P>------------------<BR>tanker0076<BR>

FNM - add my welcome and my agreement to the others. My h's affair started as a friendship. Talking at work, just lunches. Took a while, but - well, here I am. <P>Listen to the advice you've been given. It's gold and there's no need for me to repeat it.<P>Good luck.<P>lori

FNM:<P>Sorry to say this but that's how most of them start. I went that route. Lunch, E-mails, Phone calls, then a little time "after" work. Then maybe a "Saturday" or "holiday". Just to talk right? Then you sit in the car for a while and one of you leans over for a little consoling hug or a peck on the cheek, and then, and then.....<P>Been there, seen it, done it. If only I would have been as smart then as I am now, but alas, it was just a "friendship" and nobody had the right to interfere with a mere "friendship" right? Wrong. I wish my W would have screamed and hollered and scared the Hell out of me before I went brain numb. So sit down and "nicely", 'calmly" talk things out. Maybe lead your W to this forum so she can read all of our stupidities and that might just save your marriage.<P>Any person who says they can have a platonic relationship with a person of the opposite sex without developing feelings after a while is either a fool or a liar. Or perhaps both. I was.<P>Flip

Fool No More - You asked what with hindsight I would have done differently. At the time our marriage seemed to be "okay" in that there were no major blowups. However, I was very unhappy it wasn't better and didn't know how to make it better. For us I did all the wrong things like making sure the house was always clean, cooking his favorite meals, being a supermom to our daughter etc. Also my H was unhappy but I really didn't know why. When my H was withdrawn and spent so many hours away from home it made me sad and lonely but I didn't say anything because I thought I was respecting his need for "space". (something I thought men needed) I wish I had said I was not happy and I know our marriage can be so much better - please work with me to make it good so we are both happy. Please tell me what you need from me;how I can make you feel more loved by me. In general I wish I had spoken up and was able to articulate how I felt instead of being so fearful of his reaction. I also wish I had initiated sex more and set up "dates" together more. I never wanted to intrude on his space at work so I hardly ever visited. In hindsight I would have made my presence known by visiting him there frequently - and behaving like a happily married woman so the ow could "see" what she was trespassing on. (though she must have known she was destroying a family) I also would have said I know you have too strong of a character and conscience to ever have an affair but I have noticed how much time you are spending with ow. I know your work is important to you but it hurts my feelings that you spend so much more time with her than with me. Can we find a solution so I don't feel this way. (H told me he justified his affair because he thought I really didn't love him, didn't care) All this would have had to have been done early on because at some point my husband put a mask on me to convince himself that he was married to an uncaring woman who only wanted to hold him down - this gave him the green light that he deserved the ow he referred to as his "oasis".<BR>My husband has also said for a long time he didn't even know he was having an affair. Perhaps it would be helpful if you gave your wife some of the literature on how (and why) affairs begin.<BR>Does your wife show any signs of depression? I know my H was depressed at the time.<BR>Hope there was something in this that may be helpful. There is probably a lot more I could have done (if done early on) - if I can think of any thing particularly significant I will let you know. Trust your instincts early on, before it is too late. Don't deny there is a problem -- talk to her lovingly without yelling, arguing or blaming. One more very important thing - take care of yourself emotionally and physically so you are strong and attractive, not weak and needy.<BR> Simone<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Simone (edited October 19, 1999).]

I agree with what my fellow posters have written. My affair started as a friendship too. He was someone I studied with. As an engineer, I'm surrounded by men. I studied with men as an undergraduate and things never got out of hand. I thought I was safe. WRONG! My H tried to warn me, but I too felt he was being paranoid. Those feelings developed slowly over time, plus I was in a new place, new environment and was having problems meeting other women for friendship because, again, as an engineer there aren't alot of women around. It was so easy to talk to him about my problems, etc. One thing led to another and here I am....<P>My H, too, fell prey to the opposite sex friendship dilemma. During our separation, he went on a vacation with a "friend" of his that I had been suspicious about. <P>After my divorce, I briefly dated a guy that had women friends. I didn't like it, and the more I got to know him, it became obvious that we could never have a long-term relationship because of his insistence on keeping these women friends. The way I saw it, time spent with them should include me. Time spent with them alone should have been time spent with me--alone. I think people who claim that they gotta keep their opposite sex friends tend to be passive-aggressive people and just aren't trying hard enough to make same sex friends.

FNM--<P>I guess what I meant was that I wasn't looking for my friendship with the OM to lead into anything. I thought that there was no problem with me be close to the OM. I didn't realize that strong feelings were developing for him. When we were in the "right" environment and he acknowledged his feelings for me I in turn did the same thing. We were on a business trip in Lake Tahoe when the affair started.<P>I thought that I was on good terms with my husband at the time...but, now that I look back on it things weren't so great. My husband and I had grown apart after only 2 years of marriage. I had my own interests and friends and we didn't pay much attention to one another...we were basically roomates. I didn't realize that I was getting my emotional needs met elsewhere, so I felt that there were not any major issues between my husband and I because I was happy doing my own thing.<P>In my case it led to something more when my husband and I were moving. The trip to Lake Tahoe were my last days at work and I think the OM and I realized how close we had become and that we meant alot to each other. Looking back, I now realize by allowing myself to get close to this OM that I dug my own grave. When I felt that my husband and I were growing apart I should have worked on getting closer instead of turning to someone else. My husband and I are now in the process of doing that.<P>My husband probably could have shown that he cared more. My h is very layed back and had no problem with us doing our own things...he's very independent. He was perfectly happy not connecting with me...whereas I was extremely lonely in the marriage. I felt the OM loved me more than my husband because he met my emotional needs for conversation and admiration...these were not being met by my husband.<P>Try downloading the emotional needs questionnaire on this website and take the test with your wife.<P>

Talk... Talk... Talk...<P>PLEASE try to do what so many of us didn't or couldn't until it was too late. It seems so clear that something is close to happening (happened?) that will impact your future as a couple. And, all of the advice you're hearing on these posts is pretty consistent. There is reason for concern!!<P>The opposite sex friendship is such a problem with so many people that have visited the MB website. See "Truth or Lies I and II." It provides such an easy escape when minor issues at home are allowed to fester.<P>I'm on the other side: I think my W has crossed the line on a friendship with the opposite sex. 15+ years of marriage, two great kids, a wonderful career, and now problems. In hindsight, had I paid more attention to the signs that trouble was brewing -- YEARS AGO -- I don't think I'd be here. Although the other sex friendship didn't become apparent until about a year or two ago, I gave her the opportunity to seek those emotional points elsewhere. <P>PLEASE talk, if possible in a positive way. If something is going, the truth will hurt. But, It'll hurt a lot more the longer it's burried in deception.<P>Good luck

Sorry for double post. Computer problems now rival those in marriage!<p>[This message has been edited by keystone (edited October 19, 1999).]

haha keystone... and agreed!<P>Fool No More,<P>Yup, you've heard it here before... this sounds like an emotional affair that *could* lead to something more.<P>I also had a friend at work and we got REAL close REAL quick... and I ended up in such a mess. Within a three month period my H had moved out, the OM said he needed more time to leave his significant other (SO), and I had jumped in the sack with him, even though I cried most of the way through it because I KNEW how wrong it was. I've said it before, it wasn't making love, it was a roll in the hay because it wasn't real. It was a fantasy. However, the STD tests, and the biggie HIV test in two weeks are very real. Ask you W NOW, and show her oodles of love as you navigate your way through this.<P>Best wishes...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 19, 1999).]

FNM,<P>Trust your instincts here. No matter what this is an inappropriate friendship. After what went on with my husband I no longer believe in opposite sex friendships unless both people H & W are friends with the person. <P>Tell your wife how you feel. About your insecurities. Plan A to death. Tell her you are unhappy with the way your relationship is and that you want to go to marriage counseling. <P>Get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Harley. Have her read the case study, the first one in the book.<P>The betrayer doesn't often plan to get into an affair. It happens often slowly but, they know what is happening. Not often is it a love at first site thing. It builds out of friend ship. <P>If this man is truly her friend then he'd want to get to know you because we all want to know our friends families. Right?<P>I will be lifting you and yours up in prayer. <P>Your wife is nearing 40? That seems to be another very common denominator here.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Flipper, I beg to disagree with you, that you wish your W had begged, screamed, and pleaded with you, that if she had, you would have capitulated and not had your affair. That's nonsense.<P>The fact is that you couldn't see what was happening, and all her posturing would have just been perceived by you as nagging. Believe me. It would have. I tried it, and all I got was more defensiveness.<P>Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you as a spouse can do about such "friendships." Adults will do what they want, not what someone tells them too. All you can do is recognize it as a potential problem, talk about it with your spouse if your spouse will let you (mine didn't; I had to resort to giving him a letter, and whether he took it to heart remains to be seen), and Plan A to death -- and hope.<P>Unfortunately, that's the reality. Because these things start out as "friendships", and the person involved in them sees them as such, the uncomfortable spouse seems "unreasonable" to complain -- as if the presence or absence of sex is the only factor.

D&C:<P>You're right. I guess in retrospect my W had let me know something was wrong with the "friendship". But looking back, I can see she wouldn't acknowledge that she had anything to do with our alienation from one another. Fourteen years after that first "friendship" ended she still can't understand "WHY". The terrible part is that there were other "friendships" and I guess we did talk about them, but I could never get my W to talk about "US". She insisted that she was doing everything she was "supposed" to do and that I just wasn't getting with the program. So I guess I ignored her and found solice in my "friendships". What bothers me the most is how easy it is to enter into these "friendships" and how large the pool of "friends" is. I guess we are truly hedonistic inside. I can remember me and the OW crying about what a terrible thing we were doing and then comfort each other as we did it anyway. Maybe if my W would have screamed and hollered about "us" instead of just nagging 'me', it might have made a difference. Any clue?<P>Flip<BR>. <BR>

Flipper<BR> you remind me so much of my husband.Why is the responsibility of your friendships on your wife's shoulders?? I have a very close male friend, but thats all it is.We have limits, we dont cross the line, we dont talk about anything that we couldnt talk about with my husband and his wife listening.We dont keep secrets, he helps me to see my husbands side of things like I help him see his wifes. My husband says if I would have been paying attention I could have prevented his affair.Gosh, I thought he was a grown man,I thought he knew to look both ways before crossing the street.Just dont try to<BR> throw the blame to somebody else.I think<BR> a person knows when its going to far,I think you know it and you let it happen anyway.

Sorry to not offer any positive info .... my affair started the EXACT same way.<P>

So you guys think it's impossible to have opposite sex friends without threatening your marriage? Come on, people. I don't doubt that alot of affairs may start that way, but only because your spouse CHOSE to do it.<P>I have a lot of different friends - men and women. I feel very strongly about one of my women friends but I know it doesn't threaten my marriage.<P>I don't care much for golf, football, wrestling, stock car racing, or hunting. I like deep intelligent conversation. I don't find too many men who are willing to go there. So where do I get that? - my wife and my women friends.<P>I'm not discounting your experiences, but be careful about broad generalizations and jumping to conclusions.<P>I started reading this forum because I was worried about the feelings I had for my friend. A good counselor finally convinced me that it's OK to have these feelings - but you CHOOSE what you want to act on.

Whoa. Prepare for the onslaught.<BR>

Oh, it's possible to have opposite-sex friends...but not the kind of close, intimate relationship you have with your spouse...or you might even have with a same sex friend (women more than men). <P>I've had male friends where there was never anything else, nor would there ever be, because there was no attraction at all, at least on my side. But I did have a male friend once about whom I started feeling more than just "friendly" -- and it was at a low point in my marriage.<P>In ALL of my male friendships, including the one I became attracted to and found a new job so as not to become involved, my H was always informed of when I saw them, who I'd be with, where I was going, and I ALWAYS invited him to come along -- in short, wanting to INCLUDE him in the friendship.<P>And that's the difference. For all that my H now takes me to parties where PSBFH will be, he is still friends with her behind my back, still sees her and doesn't tell me, and there's still this "just him and her" element. And therein lies the problem.<P>Sure, you can CHOOSE not to become involved. But it's hard once those wheels get rolling. I left my job because I was about to either make a huge mistake or make a fool of myself, depending on the guy's level of interest. And it was HARD to leave. Not because I loved the job so much, because it was time to move on anyway, but because even at that early stage, before anything had happened, I didn't want to "lose" this guy. All the more reason to do it, I decided. But it took a lot of strength of will.<P>

You added the part I left out -<P>Yes, it's important that your spouse know about these relationships. It's important that you include your spouse when possible.<P>I agree that sneaking around and intentionally excluding your spouse is bad behavior.<P>Thanks for helping out with that D&C.

CutieP:<BR>Never tried to throw "all" blame her way. I know I did what I wanted to, but it wasn't totally without help, Yes I am very responsible for what "I" did and by the same token she is very responbsible for what happened to her. These things are not one sided and if W keeps thinking that then we get nowhere. <P>I knew what I was doing all the time. I even commented on how OW and I both agonized over what we were doing and we still did it. I guess knowing what the "right" thing is and doing the "right" thing are two separate animals altogether. Just try to realize that No One is blameless.<P>Flip

BlindSided--<BR>I agree that you have a choice not to act on your feelings...but, for me feelings are what made me want to act.<P>I felt that if I had these feelings for the OM that they must be real, that we must be meant to be together, that we were soulmates. The key for me (and I'm assuming others) is to not allow yourself to get emotionally close the a member of the opposite sex. In my situation my heart lead over my head!

BS,<BR>I just love it when some people say "*I* could never cheat! I have lots of women friends and I just don't choose to go farther." Basically, you are saying --hey, my will is bulletproof and you all are weaklings. Well, bud, I thought the same thing before it happened to me. I used to love getting on my soapbox about everyone else's immorality. Pride goeth before a fall, dear. And just because a "counselor" says its ok doesn't mean its ok. Your wife's opinion is the only one that counts. Now that I'm divorced, I won't date a guy that has lots of women friends. I think guys who feel the need to have women friends separate from their wives are passive aggressive. Same goes for women who have lots of men friends. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 20, 1999).]

Hi The Student<P>I thought what you said about men who have lots of women friends being "passive aggressive" was VERY interesting. <P>Could you elaborate a little on that? I mean, it sounds right to me but I'd like a little more info on the passive-aggressive/opposite sex friends connection.<P>Thanks in advance!

Samantha-MI --<P>My W is/was friends with OM and his W. OM's wife was her "best friend". Don't soooo many affairs start this way -- spouse of close friend.<P>What I'm getting to is that my W is friends with both. You would think that a relationship like that would PREVENT her from crossing over to an affair, but I 'm affraid it didn't work that way in my situation. NJo sure if if got sexual (My W says no), but she also says that there is no emotional involvement either. However, she admits to sharing insights into each of our marriages. I've got problems with that!!!<P>Also, she just turned 40. Midlife crisis? probably a factor, although I guess if I hadn't allowed her other opportunities to drift away years ago, that too would have been insignificant.<P>Also says that I've become controling, using my confrontation re:this suspicious "friendship" with OM and an marked increase in drinking as evidence. Yet, in counseling, she confirmed that I was NEVER controlling -- EVER -- until the last year or two. This after 15+ years of marriage, and three+ dating.<P>Re: CutieP -- I'm curious re: the fact that a "good counselor" told re kay to be friends with opposite sex. Was that a good counselor, or a counselor that supported a position you wanted to hear. An important distinction.<P>Again, talk, talk, talk if something about this friendship is troubling you. Talk BEFORE it becomes too late and too difficult on everybody.<P>Good luck!

FNM,<P>Welcome to our little sanctuary. You are certainly getting some quality info here from some of the best folks a round. <P>I can only add that my wife started down this path as well. her and this OM were just friends. She pursued him continually until he finally gave in to her advances.<P>I found out after the damage was done and have spent a considerable amount of time trying to win her back. <P>Keep in mind that you are visiting the infidelity forum so our views are some what biased. I'm sure there are many folks who can have opposite sex friends with out it going to something deeper, but I for one have been tainted with the idea that it is impossible. <P>I wish I had advice for you that would keep your stay here short. you are in a difficult situation to say the least. I offer my prayers to you that your wife and this "friend" keep their relationship from going further than what it is. I hope they do not become blinded by what can happen to them and those around them. Infidelity is a horrible state to be in. The pain is overwhelming at times. <P>We are here to help you my friend.<P>SHA

Blindsided,<P>I also thought it could be done. IT CAN'T... you're putting yourself and your spouse in a very precarious position if you think you can honestly be anything more than cursory friends with a person of the opposite sex.<P>Student,<P>Regarding:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Basically, you are saying --hey, my will is bulletproof and you all are weaklings. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's exactly how his post made me feel. When my H had affairs, I thought I would NEVER EVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS do it. I am a Christian, albeit a weak one right now, and I have MORALS, dammit! So, you can imagine my horror (and can see why I nearly ended up in a mental hospital) when I did the unthinkable and had an affair. THE WORST MISTAKE OF MY LIFE. And luckily, a short one, so that rebuilding could begin right away. <P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

To everyone that responded,<P>I am completely overwhelmed by all the responses. This website and all of you are incredibly caring. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. <P>I see that I am not alone in my feelings. I also see that my future seems bleak. <P>Dazed and Confused - You certainly seem exasperated by all of this and rightly so. Your post meant a lot to me. I have also been doing what I guess is called a Plan A. I have also stopped all outside activities and concentrated all my efforts of my wife. She has been the center of my universe too. I actually have that book by Susan Page along with many others I have been reading. I have been trying to change me and for the most part I think my wife likes it. Our marriage seems better than it was a year ago, but I still am not happy. I hurt because she sees this other man. I hurt because she desires to talk to him and mail him. I feel he is getting in the way of our marriage getting better and she doesn't care. Or maybe she just doen't think he is getting in the way. I don't know.<P>My wife seems very happy with the way things are. It is almost as if she has another life a part from me and that is OK with her. When I try to talk to her about this she does get very defensive and she thinks I am too possessive of her. She resents me for not allowing her to have friends. She said she wants autonomy. Stupid me I had to look that up. I didn't like what I read. How can you have autonomy in a marriage?<P>Flipper - My heart hurts after reading your post. The progression of what happened is what I fear. I have tried to get my wife to read some of the books I have, she won't. My problem is that when I try to talk to her about this she does get defensive, and angry, and resentful. She says nothing is going on. And why can't I let her have any friends. Perhaps she is already brain numb as you state. This other man is married too. From his emails, it seems that he could drop this friendship without a problem but my wife keeps it going. In some ways, I think he is a little uncomfortable with it. <P>Simone - A couple months ago, I asked my wife what her needs are so that I can make sure to meet them. She said there is no way one person can meet all the needs of someone else. She did tell me a few and I have been working on those. She didn't want to ask me what I needed because she felt she was giving me all she could right now. We are having sex more now then we were a year ago. It seems I am the one who initiates it all the time though. It is nice and she seems very loving during that time. I hold her and kiss her a whole bunch during that time because I don't want it to end. I wish our frequency was higher, but she is only want to get together every other week or so. She says she is just too stressed for anything more right now. Thank you for your suggestions. I have set up a date to talk to her about my feelings again. I will use what you said and make sure she knows that I love her.<BR> <BR>TheStudent - My wife is like you in many ways. She doesn't have many women friends either. And those she does have are going through some serious relationship problems too. I often wonder if she thinks we are having relationship problems. <P>Holly - thank you for responding back to me. I am trying to connect with my wife. I love her dearly. I write love notes to her often. We talk a lot. I give her back rubs. I just don't get much in return from her. I will keep trying.<P>Keystone - thank you too. As I said, we do talk, but maybe it's idle chatter and not real feeling being shared. I am going to talk to her in depth. I think I may push her away with my words but what else can I do.<P>new_beginning - How awful that experience must have been for you knowing it was wrong. I didn't even think of the possibility of her getting a disease. I'm sure she doesn't think of that either. <P>Samantha-MI - Thank you for the book recommendation. I think my wife would flip if I implied she was having an affair. She won't even read some of the other marriage books I have, she says she is too stressed right now. My wife is exactly 40. How did you know that?<P>Dazed and Confused - I think you are a very wise lady. I too think I can only tell her how I feel and hope. I can't control her and she would hate me for trying. <P><BR>CutieP - how do you keep your relationship with your male friend from going further? Would you be upset if your husband said he was uncomfortable with it? I wan to believe my wife is like you and that she knows the limits.<P>BlindSided - If your wife said she was uncomfortable with any of your women friends what would you say to her? Is there casual flirting going on? Like Gosh, you look nice today. Or stuff like that?<P>Sir Hurts Alot - I appreciate your thought in that I am asking folks in a infidelity forum. I sought this avenue because from what I read it seems that affairs get started as just friends. It is hard for me to believe that my wife would actually betray our vows. She is a Christian and we still go to church a lot. I fear she thinks she can handle this but as you have stated maybe she is blinded by what is going on. If I knew she gave her heart to this guy I think I could never trust her again. And I think our marriage would be over.<P>I almost feel I am in a hopeless situation here. If I confront my wife with how I feel, she would resent me and push me away and probably grow closer to this other man. If I let it go, she would grow closer to this other man. No win situation for me. I suppose the best thing to do is to tell her how I feel and if she does resent me and push me away then at least she knows how I feel and maybe in the back of her mind it would keep her from going too far with this.<P>Thank you everyone. You all are truly amazing.<P>Fool No More<p>[This message has been edited by Fool No More (edited October 20, 1999).]

It's when you have opposite sex friends who are very close & you say to yourself, "an affair <B>couldn't</B> happen to me" is when you need to start worrying an affair <B>could</B> happen to you! Else why would you be saying that?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Fool No More:<P>You've gotten some great advice here, and I don't think I could add very much, but I can tell you that my W's affair started this way. She and OM were co-workers. At first, she didn't even like him. But, they started hanging out a little and she got to know him and they became close. They worked at a nursing home, so W often felt like he "understood" her problems better than I did.<P>Anyway, I wish I'd been more insistent that she stop seeing him so much. I wish I'd sat her down and told her what this friendship was doing to me, but I didn't want to make waves. I didn't have any hard evidence and I didn't want her to feel like I was a jealous husband.<P>In retrospect, what I SHOULD have done was sit her down and tell her EXACTLY what I was feeling. I needed her to know that we should be connecting together instead of drifting apart. But, alas, I didn't do it.<P>You evidently have the opportunity to do that. Don't be mean. Don't be accusatory. Just tell her in the most loving way you can that her friendship with this man troubles you and that your marriage is the most important thing in the world to you and that you REALLY want to concentrate on each other.<P>In the grand scheme of things, what's more important to your W, her marriage and family, or this friend?<P>---------<P>Blindsided:<P>Believe me, EVERYBODY is capable of having an affair. I never would have thought my W was "the type" but she did it.<P>I like to think that I wouldn't do it, but I know that, given the right set of circumstances, it could have JUST as easily been me that cheated on her. The fact is, we can't really know what we'd do until the situation presents itself under the right circumstances.<P>You just never know. Ya know? <P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

So, do I seem to be hearing everyone here say that their affairs were an "accident"?<P>No, I never said that an affair couldn't happen to me. I absolutely know that it can. Maybe that's why I'm so conscious about the choices I make with my women friends. All I'm saying is all of you CHOSE to do what you did. Some of you chose poorly in this area. I don't judge you for that. God knows, I've chosen poorly in other things.<P>What are the "right circumstances"? Under what circumstances are we willing to destroy our own personal integrity (aside from hurting our spouses)? <P>My counselor says we are desperate to make "connections". If we don't feel like we have that with our spouse, we will try to connect to almost anyone. Or we can work like hell to get the connection with our spouse back. That's what my focus has been. I believe as long as I maintain that connection, I have nothing to fear from the other.<P>In answer to some of your questions FNM. Is there anything wrong with telling someone they look nice? I do that with everyone because I know how I feel when others do it for me.<P>I realize I opened a hornets nest here. I will confess this - I do ask myself frequently about relationships with some of my women friends. I wonder sometimes if I'm rationalizing to keep their company. But they are such a big part of my life, that I can't imagine just cutting off my friends because I'm afraid of what MIGHT happen.<P>There. I've shown you the chink in my armor...what will you do with it?

FNM,<BR> I will try to answer your question the best I can. I have been friends with the guy<BR> for around 5 years.We dont have any fantasy<BR> of each other I guess. He knows my faults and I know his.We see each other twice a week about work and then he drops by maybe once a week just to talk. He is smart ,funny,<BR> hes great looking and he always smells good.<BR> If we werent married, well I just dont think<BR> we have enough in common, he likes to hunt and fish and I am a baseball,football, racing<BR> nut.My husband knows how often we talk, they also talk.The only problem we had was when he first got his computer and we talked<BR> too much and his wife got upset and he told me so I told him we just wouldnt do it anymore.<BR> She was pregnant and I'm sure she wasnt feeling all that great, I understood that.He<BR> didnt understand but after I explained how it is,he was ok with it. We had to deal with other people saying we were having an affair,<BR> we just laughed it off. He will run to me when him and his wife have problems so I have to tell him ,he needs to talk to her!<BR> I guess we could have an affair but what good would it do? I care too much about him<BR> to ruin his marriage. Hes having problems with his wife right now, shes starting to stay out late and he doesnt know where she is<BR> and shes talking more about being seperated.<BR> I told him about mb and told him to come here for advice too. If my husband has a problem with any of this all he has to do is tell me. I dont think in any way I am different from anybody else and I could have an affair just like alot of people here. The only thing is, I do stop and think about things because of my half brother and sister<BR> and what it did to them when my parents did what they did. <BR> ok ,I read what I just typed and now i'm wondering, maybe we do have some kind of attachment to each other.No ,no , I dont even think of him as being a guy, I think of him as being a friend.<BR>

Just adding my 2 cents worth.<P>It is possible to have opposite sex friends. But because of our weak sinful nature we get prideful whether it be puffed up (saying that it will never happen to me) or it be I want something better because I don't like what I am currently going through (this is what causes the affair, concern for self rather than concern for others:spouse, family, the person you are thing about having an affair with, or their family, God.) <P>Our BEST FRIEND has to be Jesus first. Once we develop that relationship which has to be done continually just as our relationship with our spouses has to be worked on continually, then all other relationships will take their appropriate place. We put ourselves in those positions that cause us to fail. Because of this website and the help of other believers, I have not. When I feel myself headed down that path, I remember the pain and go to Jesus to get my comfort because He is the only one who can fill that void that we all seek to have filled. That is where we are all getting confused. Yes, I get confused until He hits me between the eyes with a board that knocks me back into His reality which is the truth.<P>Sorry if I used words that inflamed. Without compromising His truth as He reveals it to me I said it as diplomatically as I could. I accept other views that receive the same scrutiny that my own views receive: the work over by His word. His word is the only thing that we can rely on. The Holy Spirit clears up any problems for you once you truly know HIm.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 21, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 21, 1999).]

CutieP:<BR>Your last sentence was probably a lot closer to the truth than you want to admit. An affair doesn't have to be about sex. It is about caring and sharing and doing all the "other" things that married couples are supposed to do. If you find it more comforatable to talk to the OM or he with you, then you are in precarious position and it won't take much to push either of you over to the other side. Looks like he's already trying to cross over with the "my wife ........ etc". The fact that you guys were spending "too" much time on the computer and one of you had to be told about it, shows a little too much closeness for comfort. Be careful.<P>Professorg: Your strong, positive, christian belief is commendable, but it truly is not a barrier or obstacle to an affair. I had a relationship with a wonderful christian W who would quote bible verses and tell me how Jesus was responsible for her finding me and how the Holy Spirit filled her everytime she fantasized about me. I tried to explain to her that her strong belief in Jesus and her acceptance of adultery were inconsistent. But she tried to tell me that it was God's will that brought us together and we shouldn't be going against His will. So much for that. I guess the one good thing about this is that as soon as she began spouting her spirituality and sexuality in the same breath, I knew I was in the wrong place and I quickly retreated. She still e-mails me and tries to reignite some form of "friendship" but I'm doing my best to stay clean and travel the straight and narrow.<P>Flip

BlindSided:<P>The "right circumstances" can be just about anything. I don't mean "right" as in "the right thing to do." I mean "right" in terms of when things happen in just a certain way.<P>Nobody is claiming that their affair was an "accident." You don't accidentally decide to have sex with somebody who's not your spouse. We all understand THAT concept.<P>What people are saying is that for many affairs (at least the deeper, longer-lasting ones), there is a process of connection with the OP that occurs over a period of time. It's like dating. You become friends first, you have the attraction, you date, etcetera.<P>The difference is, I think, that most betrayers are in a frame of mind that they don't see it as "dating." They see it as being friends, and they convince themselves that it's not harming anyone. Then, they get more and more attached, over time, not realizing the depth of it all until they're in deeper than they thought. They don't want to lose their spouse, but they don't want to lose the friend either. THAT, in my opinion, is when it gets secretive and covert. Then, it's only a matter of time before the sexual element is added.<P>Yes, for some people, they can resist that sexual component. Perhaps they are "stronger" than those who succumbed. But, the dynamic is the same. I don't hold my wife in any less esteem because she failed to resist that temptation. She was human. She was in a wrong state of mind. She managed to convince herself that as long as I didn't know about it, it wasn't REALLY wrong because nobody was getting hurt.<P>My point is this: There is NOTHING wrong with having friends of the opposite sex. I have many. The trick is balancing your friendships with your marriage. For me, my wife comes first. If she told me she didn't want me to be friends with a particular woman, I'd have to respect her wishes. I can make new friends, but I can only have one wife.<P>We all need to remember that our spouse is one of, if not the MOST important person in our lives. We need to respect our spouses and let them KNOW what's going on with us, if we have feelings for another, etc. It ain't easy to do. I would never want to admit to my wife that I had feelings for another woman, but if I did, now that I know what SHE'S been through, I'm gonna do it, no matter HOW hard it is.<P>End of soap-box statement. Thanks for reading.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

I have to add my 2 cents to this as well. Fool No More - you are where I was 5 months ago. My wife had found an opposite sex friend who was giving her emotionally what I was not. There was nothing physical between them according to my wife, and I believe her. But the signs were there that it easily could have at any time. <P>The resolution was not easy. It took a long time for her to break away from him and come back to me. I had to fully commit myself to being a giver and work on her needs, not mine. I wasn't giving her affection or communication. Once I re-established those with her and was sincere, she came back to me. We are still in recovery, probably always will be, and I backslide occassionally. But I believe we're over the hump and will our marriage will survive. Read as many of Harley's books and articles as possible. As your wife to do so also. Don't force her to. That won't work. <P>Remember 2 things:<BR>1 - you get back what you give. Give her love, meet her needs, make her the center of your life. You'll get it back, in spades. <BR>2 - seek God's help and listen when God talks to you. <P>The road back is not easy. But it can be done.

Sorry it took so long for me to get back here...<P>New-beginning:<BR>I too thought it could never happen to me. I slept with the OM twice. It was over in two weeks. I was appalled and disgusted with myself. I'd wake up next to my H and start crying for hours in the middle of the night. I finally confessed about 6 months after it happened. My H was brutal. I had daily thoughts of suicide for over a year. So I'm not going to take from *anyone* how much stronger or better they think they are than me. <P>Lets see. Explanation of why I think people who have lots of opposite sex friends are passive aggressive... First, my definition of passive aggressive is a conscious or unconscious desire to hurt another person in ways that are difficult to directly confront. Keeping close friends of the opposite sex falls into this category for me, because if you confront the person they say "but they're just friends, you don't want me to have friends" etc. You come across as jealous and possessive. Noone wants to appear that way, so confronting the other person is quite difficult. Second, the existence of these other women/men in the picture is a veiled threat. It implies that if the individual is not getting their needs met by you at any given time, then another woman/man is *immediately* available to serve that need. They have removed the necessity that their primary emotional needs be met by their spouse. Most people would be very hesitant to state their true feelings under these conditions in order to resist being abandoned and replaced, as it were, by the "friend." So that is why I consider people who have lots of opposite sex friends to be basically passive-aggressive or controlling. <P>Fool no more,<BR>Even though I work around about 90% men, I wouldn't consider any of them my "friends". I don't share my personal life with them, and any outings are in a group. My H was always invited to any group functions, and many times I'd cancel if he didn't want to go. I was *temporarily* without any female friends in my new environment (for a period of about 4-5 months) because I had just moved to start school. My H was also in another state trying to sell our house. I was totally alone, and the OM filled that vacuum during a very vulnerable time for me. When I started having feelings for the OM, I was too ashamed to talk to anyone about it and just hoped it would go away. I took every opportunity I could to bring other women together, and still do, as it is very rare to just come across other women in my field. My profession can be quite isolating for that reason. I wouldn't want my co-workers wives to be threatened by me either, and that has happened before too. I go way out of my way to put them at ease and become their friends if possible.

Student, I think you are right on the money about the passive-aggressive thing. This is where MY problem started. I was very busy in spring 1998 doing movie reviews and finishing my master's degree -- that's when H started getting very friendly with his (mostly female) co-workers.<P>It wasn't until he was out 3-4 nights a week and I was done with school that I woke up.<P>My problem now is that my H knows how much this "friendship" bothers me, and I wonder if he uses his continued friendship as a weapon to keep me in line. He is very needy, very high-maintenance, and with this friendship, however much it is still going on (which is less than before) emptying massive amounts from the ol' lovebank, it makes it very hard to give him the constant affection, assurance, comfort, etc., that he needs. And I mean CONSTANT. So it's a vicious circle -- he's high maintenance. I'm running on empty. He doesn't get his high need level filled by me, so he goes running to her, which empties me further.<P>I think I need to find a new balance in the needs-filling arena, and stop caring what he does with her...but that's easier said than done.

Here's a new twist that just hit me after reading the latest posts...<P>Do you think it is harder to recover and rebuild a marriage when the opposite sex friendship is emotional in nature, not sexual? <P>If the "friendship" has developed into a sexual relationship, the threat to the marriage is clear. If it's emotional in nature, many people consider these other sex relationships merely friendships, nothing more, nothing less. That haziness is where the problem exists.<P>My W has an other sex relationship that she insists is not an affair of any sorts. Whether it has advance to sexual in nature is uncertain. But, if it is only (only!?) at an emotional state, SHE may not be reading that as anything. That I'm overreacting, acting paranoid. <P>And therein lies the problem. If the spouse involved in the other sex relationship does NOT understand that they are in fact a betrayer, you've got a HUGE hurdle to overcome before any recovery can begin.<P>Does this make any sense???<P>SORRY TO RAMBLE. REALLY BAD DAY TODAY.<P>

<BR>keystone-<P>Makes perfect sense to me. My wife had (has?) an internet thing going on with another guy. This has been going on for 1 1/2 years now and was so obviously an emotional affair to me that I could barely function because of the pain. But she wouldn't admit anything more than a casual friendship until that friendship progressed to her and him professing their love to each other. When it got to that point (AND I SHOWED HER THAT I KNEW) she finally admitted that it was wrong.<P>I'm really struggling now with several things related to this affair in addition to the circumstances that led up to her checking out of the marriage. It's rough.<P>Slightly Sane<BR>

Keystone, <P>Interesting observation. <P>I would say it's hardest to recover and rebuild when the affair is both emotional AND physical. I think the physical sometimes brings out the reality of the situation, but when sex is added the bond sometimes strengthens which makes it even harder to recover from.<P>Your point is well taken though. If sex isn't involved, I can certainly see how the betrayer is blinded by the attachment. They more than likely view it as only a friendship and nothing more. Once the line is crossed, it is as you say "clear" that a transgression has ben made. <P>I suppose most betrayers view affairs as only sexual in nature and don't realize the emotional attachment until it's too late. That's how I view what happened to my wife anyway. <P>How do you get a spouse to see a relationship as an emotional affair before it becomes a physical one? Or, how do you get them to understand the emotional affair is causing damage to the marriage without being viewed as posessive or paranoid? I wish I had answers to these questions a long time ago.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited October 21, 1999).]

Maybe the answer is....don't do anything without an enthusiastic agreement with your spouse....meaning if one of the spouse's is NOT comfortable with the friendship, then the friendship should be terminated or not pursued???

Okay, but then you risk being catagorized as "controlling". Now what?

And therein lies the problem. You cannot FORCE your spouse to live up to POJA or anything else. Either your spouse cares about your feelings regarding the friendship, or he/she doesn't.

D&C:<P>Very well put. Can't be any plainer than that. Either they care or they don't.<P>Of course, sometimes they <I>think</I> they care, and think you're being totally unreasonable. Fact of the matter is, if it's a problem for one spouse, it's a problem for the marriage. You don't wanna be labled as controlling, but you also don't want to lose control!<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Okay...you guys/gals have a point...how can you get spouse to do the POJA if they won't, and refuse to believe that there is a problem?<P>Maybe the Plan A will work here. Just keep filling her lovebank with Love Units so that she won't feel the need to get her emotional needs met elsewhere??

Yeah, but can't you see youself Plan A-ing til your blue in the face, without the knowledge that w HAS broken off from OM.<P>I don't believe that simply depositing more into the love bank is going to give you any piece of mind.

From a lady who has been there. That is a very serious situation.It happened to me about 2Yrs. ago. We were only friends, we met at work,talked on the phone, had lunch, and about after 6mths of that we ended up at a hotel room.My husband was very cold at the time but that is still no excuse. It lasted for 1 1/2yrs. At the time I wasn't a Christian but now I am and so is my husband now. It almost ruined us. I just thank God that we are still together. Even though he is still very cold, but pray for me cause I'm still HOLDIN-ON.<P> good luck,<BR> brina<P>

<BR> I think if you husband or wife refuses to<BR> give up a friend, then they are already in too deep. Thats when I have to say its me<BR> or her. If he picks her, oh well I hope she can put up with him.Now I know that nobody will agree with me on that but thats ok too.<BR> You got to stand up for what you believe in.

I guess my answer of your question is when the spouse begin to hide things and did not try to include you in her/his new friendship.<P>Like any other posters here, I've been there and what I did was that I went directly to plan B, I was the betrayed spouse, we've been married only for a month and I don't want to prolong anything by doing Plan A. I put my foot on the ground in a very earliest stage and scared the hell out of him (it's her or me. If it's her, pack your things and move out NOW. I don't deserve to be treated like this). <P>The road of discovery was long and hard but I am glad of where we both are now. Just be very careful, if their friendship concerned you, you must spell it out.<P>Saskia

Lone Star:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course, sometimes they think they care, and think you're being totally unreasonable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And that's where I think my H is. I think spouses who are in this mindset show a certain lack of empathy.<P>keystone:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe the Plan A will work here. Just keep filling her lovebank with Love Units so that she won't feel the need to get her emotional needs met elsewhere?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This has been my approach, and I have had some success. But she's still there, at least somewhat, as far as I know.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Yeah, but can't you see youself Plan A-ing til your blue in the face, without the<BR> knowledge that w HAS broken off from OM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly. And at some point, particularly if the spouse with the friend knows just how much it bothers you, he/she may figure that there's a connection between the friendship and the spouse being so nice all the time, and figure it's worth keeping the friend around as a trigger. That's where I fear I am.<P>CutieP:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think if you husband or wife refuses to give up a friend, then they are already in too deep. Thats when I have to say its me<BR> or her. If he picks her, oh well I hope she can put up with him.Now I know that nobody<BR> will agree with me on that but thats ok too.<BR> You got to stand up for what you believe in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, and there's also such a think as cutting off your nose to spite your face. CutieP, I suspect you are quite young. Life isn't always that simple.<P>Saskia:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess my answer of your question is when the spouse begin to hide things and did<BR> not try to include you in her/his new friendship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>From the beginning. In the early days, these people would have these parties, in addition to going out after work, and he'd never invite me. Now at least he takes me to the parties.<P>Interesting observations, as always.<P>

Dazed,<BR> No I'm not young, I'm 36 and I've loved my husband ever since I was 16.I didnt know about his friendship with the other woman<BR> at all,it was kept from me until she told me<BR> everything and sent me all the emails.If I<BR> had have known maybe I could have stopped it.I always thought it would be the girl at work or somebody else I would have to worry about.I never dreamed it would be some woman 500 miles away.I just think if you know about it, and you dont like it, then stand up for yourself and your marriage. I think the more time you let it go on, the deeper its going to get.<BR> Flipper,<BR> I take it back, I do see what you meant about your wife shouting, sometimes we have to fight for what belongs to us.<BR>

And how would you have stopped it? An ultimatum?<P>Let's look at my situation. H has this woman friend. He deals with her at work because her company does projects for his. I've expressed my displeasure with it repeatedly since December 1998. He doesn't understand why it bothers me, and refuses to end it...he CAN'T end it, because he deals with her through work.<P>By your account, what I should do is give him an ultimatum: Me or her. You decide. Now, if I did that, he'd choose me. He'd also quit his job, be unemployed, be depressed, probably have to take a pay cut, and resent me for a long, long time. In fact, he might even end up in a full-blown affair, either with her or with someone in his next job.<P>So what would I gain?<P>I think that sometimes if there's a full-blown affair, an ultimatum is a useful tool. Plan B is sort of a modified ultimatum, IMHO. That's why friendships are so much harder, because there are so many ways the spouse can justify them.<P>Sometimes you have to concede the battle to win the war.

Flipper,<BR>All those who profess to be Christian are not Christians. There are a lot of people who think they are saved and are not. The lady you spoke of has herself at the center of her universe. The Bible talks of those people in great detail. She was trying to justify her actions. This behavior is much like that of the pharissees and saduccees. You will know a tree by its fruit. She did not have the fruit. She had the talk but the walk is out of synch. You always know a true Christian because their walk and talk are in synch. As long as I continue to let Him direct my path then I will always be safe because He said He would NEVER leave nor forsake me. He has always come through during those tough times. <P>It seems that He has been working on you because you left her in the dust. Good for you. We do serve a MIGHTY GOOD GOD. All praise, glory, and honor to Him.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Professorg: Your strong, positive, christian belief is commendable, but it truly is not a barrier or obstacle to an affair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>With God calling the shots, it is the ONLY barrier that will succeed. If I try to do it under my OWN power, then I am DOOMED TO FAIL EVERY TIME.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 22, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 22, 1999).]

Professorg:<P>I agree with you 100%. Just thought you'd like to know that some people like to twist things a bit to suit their own purposes. OW was very much of the opinion that everything revolved around her. Got involved trying to help OW cope with illness. Found out that very lonely person existed under all the camoflage. Outwardly very deeply committed to Christ, inwardly committed only to self.<P>In this case it was easy to see she was out of synch, but other cases may be more difficult.<P>GBU2<P>Flip

Had a long talk with my sister last night about opposite sex friendships. She has lots of guy friends and I really wanted to hear how she does it. She seems to think that it is unnatural to have friends only of the same sex. She thinks I have a problem with men and that I should go to a counselor to discuss why I can't have men friends. ugh. I explained that I associate with men at work, am friendly, but don't discuss my personal life with them, or let them talk to me about their personal life. I thought I could be all trendy and cool having this man "friend" to talk to, and he turned into the OM. It is something I see with mostly young 20 somethings these days. Even to the point of having roomates of the opposite sex. Can't do it. And won't date anyone who does. That probably rules out alot of dating options for me, but oh well. Two other women I work with, and one of whom I'd call a close friend, tend to have mostly men friends. My observation of both of them is that they don't generally get close to other women because they like being the center of attention, and hanging out with another woman doesn't give their egos (as a woman) much stroking. Same thing with guys who have lots of female "friends". The guy I just broke up with over this issue wanted to still be friends and I told him that wasn't possible. I don't want to be part of any man's harem or stable of females, whether it involves sex or not.

Opposite-sex friendships are truely a no-win situation for a marriage. I honestly don't see how a comparison to the spouse won't be made at some point in the friendship. Once the comparrison starts, the affair is giving life and the downward spirial begins. <P>Opposite-sex friendships are breeding grounds for affairs. When marraige troubles occur, and they are inevitable, even the strongest of character can/will succomb to temptation. <P>I think prior to my wife's affair I would not have had much of an issue with opposite sex friends, but now I see they are just too dangerous to any marriage. <P>A feel Fool No More and others like him are just in an awful situation. Telling your spouse to end a friendship because it makes you uncomfortable will cause resentment. The spouse with the friend will believe they can handle the friendship and view you as controlling, jealous, and overly possessive. <P>POJA is great only if both spouses sign up for it. I think those whom have made it through an affair are more likely to abide by it than those who haven't. <P>SHA

SHA, I'd have to agree.<P>10 years ago I had a group of "work friends" that was very similar to what my H had a year ago. His crew was about six gals and three guys; mine was about six guys and two gals. Same deal -- nutty boss, unhappy at work, we were each other's strength.<P>The difference was that every time I went to dinner after work with these people, I invited H to come with me. And still...when our marriage went through a rough patch due to H's unemployment and depression, suddenly I was talking to one of these guys one day (not about the marriage), and boom! It hit me. "Boy, he's attractive."<P>That's the one where I ended up finding another job before things got out of hand and never saw the guy again.<P>So I do understand how it can happen.<P>I just wish I could make H understand. I don't think he sees her that much anymore; I truly don't. But the whole situation has kind of upset the applecart of our relationship in my mind, and I don't trust the way I used to. When he says he's going in to the office for a few hours on Saturday, I always wonder if that's where he's going; whereas before, I never would have questioned it.<P>My rule now is: No male friends. I have to practice what I preach.

SHA --<P>Bingo! Couldn't agree with you more.<P>But, our challenge is to come up with some strategy to confront these "friendships" in a positive, non-threatening way. To give the spouse the "out" without creating an environment considered controlling, demanding, etc. I just wish there was a formula that we could all apply here. Unfortunatly, there isn't.

No, you didn't come to the wrong place. It's like you're writing what I've already lived with my H. You are at the point where I began to work on my marriage. His affair turned sexual after I had started to work on my marriage because he was already hooked. Then he became torn between the two of us and then I won out. If she's having lunch with him without you, as far as I see it, there's a problem, not to mention she wants a separate life from you. My H started with frequent e-mails, then phone calls, and then came.... You ignoring the problem will only make it worse. I think you need to work big time on making her your priority. She's getting her needs met elsewhere.

Dazed<BR> I never said YOU should do it.I said I<BR> would. I stand by that. <BR> He can't end the friendship? Wow, I really feel for you. Good Luck.