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I do know for a fact that he is trying to work things out with his W. My problem right now is that my wife has said many things I have seen on this site. I love you, but I dont think I have ever been IN love with you. I need space. I dont think this will ever work out because I put my effort in a long time ago and dont think I can do it again.
These things mean something to me certainly, but its almost like I feel she is blinded by selfishness right now and deep down there is no way she really thinks that. I know if she would look back and really think to herself about how she felt, it wasnt like that before.
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Sorry for length, but you need Dr Harleys words, not mine; Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.
On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.
A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.
In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.
But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.
Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.
Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.
Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?
While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."
As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.
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Bump!
Anyone else have some advice or comments? Questions?
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Patience Jeff, You have been heard. Replies will follow.  All Blessings, Jerry PS; Breathe and relax. Deep breaths. J
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Sorry, just was hoping to find some quick answers. It is hard just sitting around waiting and letting time pass.
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Jeff, I think you're expecting to much to soon. Recovery takes time. Will your wife come to this site?
GG
me - 47 H - 46 DS 16 - DD 13 H EA August 2007 "Anger makes you smaller, while forgiveness forces you to grow beyond what you were." Cherie Carter
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Jeff,
Part of the problem solving is to become attractive yourself. Socialize, get fit, be adorable drop her nice comments on her cell every couple of days.
Learn this technique for ever...
But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
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Im certainly trying to make sure I do everything I can to make comments and buy little things that mean much more to her. I am constantly thinking about how I can make her laugh or make sure she knows I mean everything I am saying by my actions.
I have given her the site to read up on some stuff. I dont know yet if she came on, but I believe that she will or already did.
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Jeff, I know you have stated that you've been snooping and you haven't found anything. That's good. Can you account for her time away? Is there any chance of another cell phone?
I ask because R cannot begin without NC and if you don't have that then you are spinning your wheels.
I also don't think you should push her onto this site until you have confirmed NC, if nothing else don't give her your user name (kinda hard though if you real name IS Jeff). See if she is really not committed she can use this site against you. A WS can easily use Plan A and B to their advantage. So be careful there.
Have you checked out the questionnaires on this site? If you haven't already, print out the EN questionnaire and the LB one. Both you and your wife fill it out HONESTLY. You will learn a lot. You will find out EXACTLY what her ENs are and HOW to meet them and you will find out what LBs you do so you can eliminate them. Read about them if you don't understand what I'm talking about.
Also purchase Surviving an Affair. You will start to understand the dynamics of A's and you will come to see that they are all the same. Get His Needs Her Needs too. That talks about the ENs in depth.
Basically read everything you can on this site. The knowledge and tools you find here will help you in all aspects of your R and M. And lastly, breath. This is going to take months, even years (avg 2+ yrs) to R from infidelity. You'll have good days and bad. One moment you will love her with all of your heart, the next you'll wonder why you stayed. IT'S NORMAL. expect it.
Glad to have you here.
BW(me) DDay EA 4/05 DDay PA 6/05 In recovery
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I am very sure of the NC. Like I said, I have been in contact with his M and they are working hard to save their M as well. I have already learned that my W has lied a lot and I cannot fully trust anything she says yet. I have kept my guard up as much as I can without being resentful, and will not be a sucker for this to happen to again.
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Ok, so I wake up this morning asking myself a few questions:
1. I understand this seperation - dating thing, but is it really ok when you know there is NC with the OM? What I mean here is, should we be seperately living when the A is over?
2. I wonder how long it will take for her to want to make this work completely?
3. I feel like I am fighting a losing battle sometimes, what is in me that makes me keep wanting to fight more?
Last edited by Jeff1003; 02/11/09 11:44 AM.
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1. I understand this seperation - dating thing, but is it really ok when you know there is NC with the OM? What I mean here is, should we be seperately living when the A is over?
2. I wonder how long it will take for her to want to make this work completely?
3. I feel like I am fighting a losing battle sometimes, what is in me that makes me keep wanting to fight more? 1. No. She should be living with you. Usually when the A ends the WS comes home. It doesn't ALWAYS happen, but the majority of the time it does. The only reason to stay apart is to continue with what she is doing. A person is NOT committed to a M if they are not at home wit you. It's illogical. That is why I am concerned with NC. When WSs know you are on to them they take the A further underground. I know his M thinks it's over, but unless she tails him and is with him 24/7 no one knows 100%. False recoveries happen here all the time. Read some of the threads here. Look at Chrysalis' recent thread. She's been in a false recovery for months now(her WS said the A was over and they were R or so she thought). Her WS has been in contact for like a year without her knowing it. 2. If NC is in place, she'll start getting DE-fogged. If it was an abrupt end to the A, it may take longer and she'll go through a withdrawal period, much like a drug addict. The more ENs you meet the sooner she'll get more clear headed. However, if you try to meet her top needs and she doesn't come around, it is a classic symptom that they are still in contact. If she does start to come around and you offer her forgiveness and compassion, it shouldn't take her long to see what she has done. That's when she would earn her "f" as in FWW. And a truly FWW will beat herself up much more than anyone else possibly could. But it takes time. 3. Only you know the answer to this. There are many reasons to stay: love history children vows You name it, I'm sure someone has stayed for it. It's a tough journey. It's a rollercoaster with lots of hills. No matter if you stay or leave, you should learn all that you can from here and take it with you. Become a good man that any woman would want. Learn from your mistakes and make permanent changes where need be. Improve you.
BW(me) DDay EA 4/05 DDay PA 6/05 In recovery
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I can see it, but all she says is she hasnt been happy for a long time, and doesnt think she can truly love me and feel the way she should towards me again. Jeff, A person CAN fall back in love with another. It IS possible and it happens all the time on this forum. See there is a secret that Dr Harley figured out and put into logical terms that makes a whole lot of sense...he calls it the love bank. When a person meets another person's TOP ENs they put deposits of love units into that person's love bank. If enough ENs are met in the right MANNER that the person needs, then ROMANTIC love develops. And that is how people fall in love. To stay in love the ENs keep being met and the love busters(LBs) are eliminated. Those are things that take love units away. Your independent behavior(hanging with friends) is an LB. Anything else that she has complained about is an LB to HER. Do enough LBing and love is lost. Think about it...what EN is OM meeting? Recreational time, conversation, affection and care? And then add to that that he is not LBing, so he has built all sorts of love units and she started to have feelings for him. It all makes sense, you just have to understand it. YOU must be the only one who meets her top ENs and she has to let you meet them. If she doesn't, there is usually a reason (someone else is doing it more/better or she has enough resentment that she has built up a wall). KWIM?
BW(me) DDay EA 4/05 DDay PA 6/05 In recovery
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It was a very abrupt end to the A for her. This site makes me wonder if it is still going on somehow someway. I think at this point if it was still going on, I wont be able to take it anymore. I want to stay with her so bad, but if she wont even end the A there is no point.
I feel almost like I am being strung along on the side sometimes and it is very hard for me to accept that because I just want her to truly come back to me and love me. I still do not understand how I am this willing to forgive her and work it out, but she is still unwilling to do so. She says its because it has been so long since we have been truly in love.
I honestly dont know what to do at this point. I am trying my hardest to back off and do this dating thing with her. I have enjoyed my time to myself with friends, but there is still a loneliness there that only she can fullfill. I wish she would see that I can meet her EN if she will let me. I am so willing to change from my past ways. I guess I might just have to learn from my mistakes and start all over again......
I cant even believe I have to say that.
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Jeff, I have to tell you that I am very suspicious of the fact that your WW chooses to stay seperated, even after NC has suppposedly ended. This is not the behavior of a WW who wants to try and reconcile. Could your WW be biding her time waiting for OM to drop his W and come back to her? Sounds like WW cake eating. JMHO. Dating BS 2 to 3 times per week,,,, sounds like string him(you) along in case A doesn't work out. How hard have you bee snooping, cause something doesn't fit here. Again, just my bulls$$t meter going into overload. Still curious about "friend who is supporting her stay with her and not with you? Is that where she is living at the moment? OK, Plan A/. Have you downloaded the EN's questionare from a link at the top of this page? You need to be perfectly clear whaere you missed the mark for all these years. It would also give you a clue as to why your WW felt so vunerable to the advances of OM. He was obviously forfulling 1 or 2 of her top en's, so understanding what those needs were, will be key for you to do the same. KWIM? Ok, breathe and relax, how many pounds have you lost so far?  All Blessings, Jerry
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Jeff, I have to tell you that I am very suspicious of the fact that your WW chooses to stay seperated, even after NC has suppposedly ended. This is not the behavior of a WW who wants to try and reconcile. Could your WW be biding her time waiting for OM to drop his W and come back to her? Sounds like WW cake eating. JMHO. Dating BS 2 to 3 times per week,,,, sounds like string him(you) along in case A doesn't work out. How hard have you bee snooping, cause something doesn't fit here. Again, just my bulls$$t meter going into overload. Still curious about "friend who is supporting her stay with her and not with you? Is that where she is living at the moment? OK, Plan A/. Have you downloaded the EN's questionare from a link at the top of this page? You need to be perfectly clear whaere you missed the mark for all these years. It would also give you a clue as to why your WW felt so vunerable to the advances of OM. He was obviously forfulling 1 or 2 of her top en's, so understanding what those needs were, will be key for you to do the same. KWIM? Ok, breathe and relax, how many pounds have you lost so far?  All Blessings, Jerry Lol, I have lost some weight. There were a few times I was not eating for 2-3 days at a time, and throwing up. We had a rough night tonight as she came over for a bit before we went to a counselor. We both agreed that it was over because she is not trying hard enough to make things work. She agreed to go ahead and go to the counselor with me. I did not realize how much counseling could help...... until now. We went in and I told the counselor it is over as of tonight because my W has no real want inside of her to try anymore because she is so hurt and we have been living basically like roommates with benefits for so long. She just has drifted away because of our terrible marriage. The counselor questioned my W a bit on her reasoning and told her that she has a man that loves her, cares for her, and is willing to learn from his mistakes. You just dont find that very often. I am no boasting on myself, but I think I deserve some kind of credit for that. Now she did also point out all the things I did to hurt my W over the years and push her away. She made my W explain things to me as in "It made me angry that I felt invincible" which meant alot more to me for some reason than her saying, get off the computer and spend time with me. I dont know what it was, but it meant more to me because of her saying she was angry rather than just demanding I do something. I ask the counselor about seperation time with dating and expressed that I can only see how much it hurts me. She said it is the best thing if my W is really willing to try and respark something we never really had and take time to actually get to know each other in a more real way. Basically what she was telling us is, there never really has been much of a marriage and there are no kids involved so its really not much of a change from the way we were living before. My W did say she is ready to try 100% to get to know me and help meet my needs. The counselor has us express what precisely we wanted to see from one another, because neither of us can read minds. I was worried that if I told her exactly what I wanted than if she did it, I would feel like it was only because I asked her to. The counselor then stated that I do not need to question which heart it is coming from because it is more of the fact that she is doing it, and suprises can start from there when she learns more about what I want from her. I guess as a conclusion she said we are at ground zero right now, and it can not get any worse, it can only get better from here. She said she feels that if we both try very hard than there is no way we can not work it out because our love tanks will be getting filled. I am ready for this and taking it as the opportunity I have been waiting for.
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Good. Continue to read the site here for meeting her needs.
But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
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I guess as a conclusion she said we are at ground zero right now, and it can not get any worse, it can only get better from here. She said she feels that if we both try very hard than there is no way we can not work it out because our love tanks will be getting filled. I am ready for this and taking it as the opportunity I have been waiting for. Jeff: Sounds like the counseling session pulled you both back from the edge of the abyss! Good! Ground Zero can be a good thing. Startig new. Fresh beginning. Just like dating all over again. Good thing... Be patient with your wife. My WWs A came to an abrupt end...the OM just stopped communicating with my WW. Their affair was largely EA via phone, text and a few e-mails. They did "hook-up" for a weekend in Vegas  After that my WW realized the OMs "friend" was really more than a friend...a girlfriend. OM basically shut down the affair and went back towards his GF. My WW suffered through withdrawl (er, withdrawal...thanks Mike) for a month before DDay and me finding out. Even after DDay my WW was still a bit foggy from the affair. It's been five weeks since DDay and she continues to improve. I'm still Plan A-ing my tail off! And it helps!!! My advice, drop everything you do that doesn't involve your wife. Spend every waking hour you can with her, doing things she loves to do or things you both like to do. It's all about meeting her ENs right now. And the cool thing is after a while she will start trying to meet your ENs. Patience and keep reading and posting here. IT's a rollercoaster ride...heck, I've been on it twice now (two affairs...  ), but I can tell you your marriage can be better than it ever was. You just have to keep working on it! Peace and strength my brother!
D-Papers served May 8th, 2009
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Thanks for everyones advice and kind words. I think it will be easier for me now to try because my W has committed to completely putting the effort into it as well.
I will never let her regret that decision. I am willing to wait now, because I know these things take time. I told her that any date time I have with her will be just me and her, no friend double dates along with us because I do want any time that I get to be just me and her. I hope she knows why I want that.
I think Valentines day will be the best I have ever had!
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I hope no marriage talk on VD.
What's your plans for valentines day?
But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
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