Reading Erichh's posts, and I tend to agree with him, it is not that masturbation is wrong, per se. I think what he is saying is that for him, the way he was using masturbation, was a way to avoid dealing with his W and their problems. And, if he reached a point where he needed the masturbation and pornography (which was probably more frequent than the masturbation itself) to feel complete then he was addicted no matter how infrequent this was. You can't tell if masturbation and pornography for a particular person is healthy or unhealthy based upon frequency.

I commend Erichh for dealing with what he considers to be a problem in his relationships and wish him luck.

Keep us updated.

Hi-
I haven't read your whole posts.

My husband is a recovering sex addict. His addiction was porn and masturbation.

I was reading your other thread..I was a bit worried that you said your addiction was "just" porn and masturbation. That's minimizing addict speak. If you don't deal with your addiction, it has the capacity to escalate to prostitutes, physical cheating and the like-which would make you like the others in the 12 step meetings you attend. Addictions escalate, that you can bet on. How they escalate, is the wildcard.

Do you have access to sex addiction therapists through your health network? That did the trick with my husband. He's been sober with no slips for 2 years now. He'd been acting out for nearly 20 years. He also didn't care for 12 step meetings. (Neither did I.)

There's also some web sites: recovery nation, no-porn.com for people dealing with sex addiction.

Patrick Carnes also has several books out, including a workbook on the 12 steps. That's what my husband had to work through.

Good luck. I think you know that you are on the cusp of a long, hard, new adventure. It IS worth it. I would also table any thoughts of divorce for a year. It took my husband 9 months to move from sobriety to recovery.

And, I found that my recovery has significantly lagged my husband's. But he married me without disclosing his addiction. In my case, I had to deal with all my skeletons in my closet to heal myself before I could work on my marriage and deal with his addiction. I personally believe that mentally/emotionally healthy women don't choose to marry addicts.

Biblically this is called an Onanism after Onan who was supposed to inseminate his brothers widow, but missed. Onan died.

I guess I carried this sin of "self medication" for many years. ED at fifty has slightly positive charateristics.

There is no question in my mind whether I'm unhealthily addicted to P & MB. I have always used it as an escape from difficult emotions. It has always been like a drug for me. I have tried to stop and have never been able to go more than a month before acting out again. I think what has kept it from progressing to worse acts is that I've always been active in my church.

I know that some may believe that P and MB as a way to self-medicate is not wrong but I believe it is wrong and I've seen a few recent studies that show serious negative consequences to the health of marriages where one spouse views pornography.

Thanks for responding to my comment about minimizing my problem. That's a good reality check for me. I'm beginning to take it more seriously and really want to nip this problem to be a healthier person.


I do have a good therapist that I've started to go to who specializes in addiction recovery. I don't like the 12-step meetings either. I have been visiting recoverynation.com and have found it helpful.


This is an interesting comment. This also hits on one of the issues that is making it difficult for me to know whether I should pursue recovery with my spouse or not. I don't believe that she is mentally/emotionally healthy and maybe that is why she agreed to marry me when she knew I was addicted to P & MB. Of course, I don't think that I am mentally/emotionally healthy either since I have an addiction. I feel that once I am free from my addiction, maybe my thought processes will be clearer and I will be able to make better choices of what I need to do.

One possible outcome is that I will overcome my addiction while my wife is still actively in an affair in which case I may feel it is best to finalize the divorce and look for a healthy marriage relationship in the future.

Ideally, I'd like to recover from my addiction and find that my wife has recovered from her adulterous ways and maybe we could recover our marriage.

I don't know the outcome but I believe I've found what I need to do right now and for the next year or so or as long as it takes. I don't want to make any final decisions until I've overcome my addiction.

I'm going to change the subject a little here.

Since my wife and I signed the temporary custody agreement 2 or 3 weeks ago, I've defaulted to a plan A because my wife began acting civilized again. She was in very good spirits the day we signed the agreement and we've been on great friendship terms ever since.

She usually stays at my house for over an hour when she drops off our son and I stay at her apartment for over an hour when I take him back. She has stayed for dinner at my house a couple of times and we've been getting along great.

WW said that it is a sad thing that we talk now more than we did when we were married. She has even been playful with me and spashed me with water at the kitchen sink and other playful things.

I only LB'd once during this period unintentionally and made a disrespectful judgement. She got angry but I kept my cool and brought her back around and we were back as friends again almost immediately.

She is a flirty/playful person in general so I don't take the playfulness for more than her just being herself but I am really curious whether my meeting her EN for conversation will make her fall in love with me again if I keep it up.

I was getting pretty hopeful about things until I was at her apartment this morning dropping my son off when she shared a youtube video with me on her computer and I saw a minimized chat window with OM's name on it. So obviously they are still in contact. I was amazed at how much it hurt me to see this. I almost had myself believing that they weren't in contact anymore because of the way my wife and I were getting along and talking so much and hanging out.

I composed myself well and made myself get over it. I reminded myself that I need to keep working on myself and that things take time. And as I said earlier, I want to get myself in a very healthy mindset before I make any big decisions anyway. But this episode made me realize that I have fallen in love with my wife again... I am becoming vulnerable again. I'm not sure this is a good place to be. I need to keep a level head.

Does anyone here think that it is possible to have a WW that will "cake-eat" for extended periods of time? For example, is it possible for a WW to let two men meet different ENs indefinitely or will she eventually choose one over the other? I guess this gets into the realm of plan B...

Sorry if my mind is all over the place. It's V-day this weekend and it's the first V-day being apart from my wife and I've been feeling a lot of emotions. It's also Friday the 13th. Weird.

She's playing you like she's played all her other ex husbands. She gets along with all of them.

You're now going to be number 3.

I say you Plan A for a while, but be prepared to go to Plan B eventually after you've executed a good Plan A.

Otherwise she is simply going to cake eat and it's easy for her to do this now that she's out of your house.

She is certainly cake eating.

She does get along fairly well with both ex-husbands, particularly #2. The second ex-husband would always stay for an hour at our house when he dropped off his son and chat for a while with my wife and I. She gets along well with him but they only talk during exchanges which occur just every other weekend.

I've been seeing her almost every day due to our frequent exchanges. I guess I'm hoping that by having so many good and long conversations nearly every day, that I can fill her love bank past the love threshold and get her to fall in love with me again.

I know she may be cake-eating but hopefully I can give her more delicious cake than her no good fruitcake serving OM. Then at least I'll have a choice whether to take her back or not.

Tonight she was flirty again when she dropped off our son. She swatted me on the bum once and another time she acted like she was going to kiss me on the mouth but stopped at the last second, all in a playful way.

She was playful like this when we were together and she always wanted me to be playful back to her but I was more like a deer in headlights and clueless of what to do in return, kind of like tonight dang it.

I think she may be giving me opportunities to flirt back with her and maybe fall in love again. Maybe I'm just having wishful thinking. But I just don't want to believe that my wife could be so sinister as to tease me for no reason other than to get her own kicks.

I will continue to plan A for a while and then go into a dark plan B somehow. I just need to figure out how to avoid talking to her during exchanges... That will take some planning. As I work the plans, I will work on myself too.

She is feeding off of having two guys treat her like a goddess.

Can you handle that?

If not, just go to Plan B so she'll have to face the consequences sooner, for everyone's benefit.

Don't forget about the stick of Plan A. It will give you a better guage about her motivations. Generally, if the affair continues then the affair remains there primary motivation....meaning it ALL revolves around her addiction. She's only nice to you as long as you don't interfere with her addiction, make her feel that you are happy and going along with her divorcing you (i.e.- don't make her feel guilty and ashamed) and you help alleviate the pressure by taking one (or even two) of the kids off her plate so she can continue the affair.

You may consider, as part of the stick, mentioning, in response to her saying how well things are going, that IF she, in fact, follows through with the divorce it will be a shame to lose your relationship with her. Say it light heartedly and without anger or any judgmentalness in your voice. Very nuetral and matter of fact like. Just remind her that you are only behaving such way because she is still your wife and you are respecting the vows you made when you married her (i.e.-love, honor and cherish); however, IF she does divorce you, you have no intention of maintaining a relationship with someone that would so devastate you and who is so selfish that they would hurt you and your child in such manner. That you must demonstrate to your son, in time, proper boundaries. Etc.

Then see how nice she continues to be as her behavior is more likely an act of manipulation to serve her selfish desires to have her needs met and allieve her guilt. She has no feelings for you...just as a active crack addict doesn't care about anything and anyone other than their dear friend the crack rock.

Read up on the carrot and stick of Plan A and don't fear conflict as it's the ONLY road to intimacy in the long run.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- Don't forget about attacking the affair whenever and however possible. There is absolutely no way to recover your marriage or even get the chance to until the affair is over. Rock the boat and make it as difficult as possible. Often with WW's the best chance to end it quickly is by getting the OM to dump your wife. You've got to make your wife difficult to the OM...such that he may just find some other woman with less baggage (there's got to be loads of those in your area as your wife has a pretty big set of Samsonites). Such difficulties include your wife being upset at you for your Plan A stick manuveurs and continual complaining to OM about you. OM's like happy WW's, not upset, crying and distraught ones. Also, OM's are weasels and no matter how much bravada they try to put out, deep down they all inherently fear the BH because they KNOW they deserve a good butt-kicking. Remember...anything you say about OM or imply about OM to your wife WILL be repeated back to him so use that to your advantage. The OM in our situation was lead to believe I was a former competitive golden gloves boxer and that my family was in the Greek Mafia. Neither of which are true, but I said it to my wife and let her repeat it to OM. Funny thing is...my wife knew it wasn't true...but OM's implicitly hear and feel the threat anyway. Maybe you know some tough known ex-criminals or made men in your area that you could mention to your wife that you had lunch with or just ran into and discussed OM. Let HER do the inferring and she WILL repeat it to OM. Let her notice the bat in your backseat or the hunting knives in your open glove box. Don't threaten...just innocent implications. Etc.

This is absolutely true...even conflict is better than complacency. Don't dodge any conflict, it's ok.

[P.S. Why Mr. Dub, this is quite a long post from you! And very right on!]

I had a friend from church swing by WW's apartment this morning on his way to play basketball (they play b-ball at 6:30am!!). He said WW's car was not there so she is probably spending the weekend at OM's house since neither of them have their kids this weekend. Plus it's V-day. How romantic for them..

I have been happy and going along with the divorce so far. I said in an earlier post that shortly after we signed the temp custody agreement, I told WW that I was going to just hurry up my paper work so that she could finalize the divorce and just get it over with. Her response was "what's the big hurry?" She repeated that to me another time as well.... So now it seems that she is in no hurry to finalize the D... Why would she do this if she's still hot for this other guy?


I could do this. But again, she doesn't seem in any hurry to finalize things for some reason. Maybe she is testing the temp custody agreement to see if she likes it or not. She did mention that she wanted to try out the visitation plan I asked for but that she didn't know if she wanted it to be permanent because it's more time away from our son than she initially agreed to. But the thing is, that the longer we have this temp agreement in place, the likelier it is to become permanent by a judgment from the court..


Yeah, I think I am being manipulated. It's easier for her to deal with a pleasant spouse than an unhappy one. It makes it easier for her to get what she wants. But I do think that she genuinely enjoys our time together because she definitely doesn't have to spend all that time with me during our exchanges. She also sends me emails and text messages. I believe that a part of her wants me there in case things don't work out with OM. Not the best position for me to be in but better than nothing?

I'm definitely going to go to plan B after I've Plan A'd really well for a little while longer.. Partly because my heart can't take this. I have feelings for her again and I know she's still in pursuit of the OM... It was easier when I'd lost most of my feelings for WW due to us not talking and her keeping my son from me.

The upside to her manipulating me is that she feels relaxed about our situation and lets my step-son come over for visits and she may make mistakes that could make her look bad in a custody battle. For example, I found out that WW leaves her apartment to go grocery shopping on weekends after she puts the boys to bed and lets our 11-year-old babysit until she comes home at 11:30PM. I don't think this is illegal and I think that our 11-year-old is capable of keeping an eye on the boys, but maybe it could be used against WW in court if necessary.

So, as hard as it is for me to know that one of her motivations for being kind is likely to manipulate me, she is also being manipulated into giving me what I want--more time with my kids and a favorable outcome for me in a D. She said that she is going to drop a lot of the things that her attorney encouraged her to ask for in the D such as half of assets and separate maintenance.


I'll have to brainstorm here. WW isn't fooled easily by me. She always seems to know when I'm blowing smoke, but we'll see.

Ugh, now I wish I didn't know that WW and OM were likely together for V-day weekend. It rips me up inside. I'm taking care of our little boy while being kind and friendly to her while she is probably having a lustful weekend with OM. I just need to get my mind off of that and focus on my own personal progression and having a great weekend with our son. Thank goodness for MB, it is so helpful to have others with similar experiences be here for me.

Thank you all. Have a happy Valentines Day.

E

I'm not saying that I don't believe you here but does the love bank theory break down in the instance of a WW being in the middle of an A? In other words, when I meet her needs for conversation, family dedication, and financial support, do these not make deposits in her love bank since she is having an A?

I was hoping that it was possible for me to make enough deposits in her love bank to break through her threshold of love and make her fall in love with me again even though she is having an A. The idea would be to have a higher balance in her bank account than OM has and draw her away (the carrot).

While saying all this, I do know that we can not recover while she is having an A. I was hoping that it was possible to draw her away from OM so that the A would die a natural death, and then work on marital recovery. I want to manipulate the manipulator! Of course I pray that OM drops off the face of the planet or dumps WW, but I have little control over that.....legally...

I don't have much of a "stick" right now since she is living in her own apartment but will brainstorm how I could beat her affair with a stick as suggested by Mr. W....

Sorry if I write a lot. It's part of how I cope with the situation--it is therapeutic.

I re-read Dr. Harley's advise on what to do when a wayward spouse won't end the affair:

But what do you do when your spouse won't leave her lover? What if she won't move to another state? I have recommended two approaches to this problem.

The first approach that I often recommend is to compete with the lover. Even as she is seeing the man, try to meet her needs, financially and emotionally. That approach has the advantage of proving that you care more about your wife than her lover does. Since you have more to lose than the lover (your family unit and present way of life), you can usually outlast the lover. He eventually finds someone else with less baggage.

This of course is referred to as Plan A. He goes on to explain that it is often too difficult for a spouse to continue this approach indefinitely because of images of their spouse in bed with OM, etc (I know the feeling). So he therefore suggests to plan A for about 6 months then go to Plan B. I have been in plan A for less than a month now. I'd like to think that I could go six months and will try for that.

But I am also serious about a DARK plan B if Plan A fails. I just have to figure out how I would take care of our frequent exchanges without contact with WW.

Er

WW has moved out.

Divorce proceedings are going forward.

Plan A is not working.

WW still has contact with OM.

Time to plan B is now. Get WW to realize what she is losing before the divorce. Plan B after the divorce is pointless. WW has what she wants, you gone.

It is true that WW has moved out but the divorce proceedings have come to a halt. WW says that she is in no hurry to finalize the D. We've been getting along better than we have in years and WW is giving me lots of opportunities to meet ENs. I wouldn't consider myself completely "gone" since I spend at least an hour with WW nearly every day (every other Monday morning, Tuesday evening, Wednesday morning, Thursday evening, Friday morning, every other Friday evening.) We also talk on the phone and text each other.

I know that she still has contact with OM, but things between WW and I seem to be gradually improving with each week. I think that if I can plan A for a while longer, I might have a chance at this or at least to leave her with a very good impression once I go dark.

I don't think the fact that WW has moved out for about two months and has contact with OM means that I should automatically go to plan B. There are too many examples of couples that recovered with a lot worse situations than mine. Mortarman's wife was gone for something like two years. I think the example in SAA of Sue and Greg was a situation where WW was moved out and seeing OM for months. She even took the house and kicked BH out!!

I could always be wrong though, especially in light of my WW's history. But neither of her ex-husbands fought for her. If things don't work out between us, I don't want to say that I didn't do everything i could to make it work..

Why is WW stalling?

Is the OM failing to meet her needs?

Is WW pregnant?

I smell something foul.

If OM is failing I think best time is now for you to plan B. Faced without having any needs met is what needs to be happen to push your WW off the fence.

ITA, something is definitely rotten in Denmark!

Charlotte

I don't know why she is stalling. If you search through my thread you'll find a chat conversation between OM and WW that shows them lovebusting each other badly. I think that OM is not the prince charming that WW thought he was.

I also received an email from WW during the period when we weren't talking to each other where she says that she actually missed me.

Plan B might be the answer, but it is risky. I think it may be the right thing to do after thinking about it. But I just want to make sure that I've made the best impact that I can make with a SOLID plan A that will leave her literally begging for me once I'm gone. So far, I feel like I've done a strong plan A because WW and I seem to be getting closer and closer.

Once I feel that we've gotten as close as we can possibly get barring her leaving OM, I'll go dark. Perhaps her email stating that she missed me while we weren't talking is a harbinger of what is to come if I go dark. I am still figuring out the logistics of how to do this though since we have frequent child exchanges..

Any one else think I should jump straight to plan B already?