interpret this conversation for me ...
context ... ww is staying at MIL's ... called this morning hoping to catch the kids before they left for school, she's missing them. I told her I was missing her.
after the requisite small talk she asked me if I understood what happened ... understood how she ended up falling for another man (no mention of her choosing to have an adulterous affair with him) I explained yes ... very compassionately outlined the short story of our 12 years, her most important EN being neglected, her frustration unnoticed, my lack of emotional availability, her inability to pursue her dreams (lack of a green card, cdn living in the US) ... now, as of 2 years ago, we're back in Canada, she is pursuing her dreams, successful, self-esteem is recovering, she is someone who is making a difference in the world, then along comes this POSOM who notices and meets her most important EN ... she falls "in love" with him - do I understand? Yes - and yes we're intentionally leaving off the "you chose to have an adulterous affair with him" part for now.

WW then asks what is really going to change? Can I become a different man who will not neglect her dreams, and will meet her most important EN (she didn't use MB language but that's what she meant). Then states "I will not spend the rest of my life in a relationship where I don't feel loved and where my needs are not met and where my dreams aren't taken into account and where my,my,my ....

I respond gently, that I believe in her, I believe in us, that I can change and become a better man, that I am in counseling to work on emotional availability and that once she ends the A and we are working on our marriage we can learn how to meet each others EN.

she used the phrase "how can i be sure" - obviously, she's looking for assurance that I'll change.

more small talk ... I mention (still answering the question "do you understand what happened?) that I understand that at some point she made the choice to turn this into an affair instead of coming to me saying ... I've begun to realize that there are some unmet EN in me that we need to talk about ... you need to learn how to meet these so that I don't fall for another guy. She jumped in deflecting, not wanting to talk about the affair (her bad) but what led up to it (my bad)

more small talk ... says she's going to hang up, amicably ... I say "I miss you and I love you" - no response, we hang up.


three minutes later, she calls back, tells me that when I say "I miss you and I love you" that it sounds empty and condescending, like I'm treating her like a child ...

I break down on the phone and explain to her how I miss her, that I can't sleep in our bed because she's supposed to be in it, that I can't use our bathroom because it smells like her, that I weep when I pour my morning coffee because it's one cup, not two - that I'm unbearably lonely when the kids go to sleep because she is not there. (at this point, I can't speak for sobbing) I say again that I miss her, and I love her. Hope she didn't think it was condescending the second time around.

she was feeling sorry for me ... hearing my loneliness ... and asked if I wanted her to come over ... I said yes, but no. I told her again that I missed her and wanted nothing more than to be with her, but that I don't want her back for an afternoon, I want her back for good.


so ... interpretations please.

well, this is a tough one

... if we stay together and begin recovery, it'll be a long road and a long time before she's willing to ever face those people again. Also, the church (it's a church that I started from scratch 2 years ago and grew two over 200 people) is deemed to be part of the problem in her mind, it is a trigger point - my church career inadvertently kept her from being able to pursue her dreams, contributing to some of the emptiness.

... if this ends in D ... I'm not sure that the church will have me back, and I am sure that I'll be in pretty rough shape and not really in a good place to do the job.

so, in either case, I'm beginning to think that the best thing for the church is for it to move on without me ... I'm not making that decision now ... but it looms on the very near horizon. A two-month sabbatical will go by quickly.

Sounds like she's at the point where she's weighing her options; on the fence; i.e., do you have enough to offer her. meh

What is this "dream?" Her little PT job down at the gym where her adultery partner works?

You do understand that this "dream" has led to the near ruination of your family and can't continue the way it has?

She wants very much to blame her affair on you, did you get that? She was trying to make you mad and when you didn't comply you didn't give her the ammunition for her gun.

Now I have a serious question. Did your pastoral job really cause problems in your marriage? Did she object to it before the affair? I ask this because this is not a normal job, but a job that serves God and your marriage is clearly under assault. Your W is serving a different master today.

Her dream is simply to have a purpose outside of me ... she's been pushed and prodded to the the pastor's wife and it's simply not her ... never has been. The "dream" doesn't sound like much, but to her it's freedom to be someone independent of the expectations that come from being married to a pastor.


i totally see that she want's to lay all of the blame on me ... i spent some time shouting at the walls today about that ... she did this ... I will accept my responsibility in creating the environment, but she did this ...

In response to your serious question ... I think she did object to the job all along, in fact, the first time I proposed she said no ... because she didn't want to be a pastor's wife. The church job has been a factor in that it places unfair expectations on her, which I did not protect her from.

I've no doubt that while our problems and the affair are very real and natural - that there is a supernatural element to it where there are dark forces opposed to the work God is doing through the church ... wreck the marriage, wreck the church.
(I know some of you don't think that way ... that's cool, don't check out on me just because our religious beliefs might differ, I still need your help on the natural side)

btw - i've made no mention of dark forces or a spiritual dimension to ww ... I'm not some spooky demon behind every tree kind of person

See, this is something that would be addressed in MB and is a key issue. One of the MB concepts is the policy of joint agreement. That means that a couple does nothing without the enthusiastic agreement of the other. It means that you would not have taken the pastoral job without her enthusiastic agreement. It means she would not have taken her PT job without yours.

Her acquiesce to your career choice led to huge resentment and a dangerous attitude of entitlement: "see what I have sacrificed! I DESERVE my own life!" That is how many affairs start and this is how the thinking goes.

So, in a future marriage, decisions like this will be made JOINTLY, not unilaterally, if you use MB concepts.

Independent behavior in a marriage is usually a disaster, and because she feels you practiced it, she believes she is entitled too.


Right. There is nothing you have done that even comes close. What she did is on the level of rape or death of a child. She did a horrible thing to you and those kids.


We see whats going down here. After you are here for awhile it becomes even more clear when waywards all use the same script. It is shocking. It is good you are aware of it.

I totally get the policy of joint agreement, and wish that someone told us about it 12 years ago. It's that policy that I expect will lead to a career change for me. I think that if we were in recovery, and sat down to evaluate where to go from here, that continuing in my current career would not fit the POJA.

I want to live by that Policy, I see the beauty and the freedom of it.

OMG - have you been listening in on our conversations?!

No problem understanding the equation.

The order of authority we have been taught: God is first, our family second and the church comes third.

So what kind of job are you applying for and is WW on board?

imagine, we haven't even talked about it ... but she understands the implications the same way I do ... together, church is not likely, apart, still not likely.

haven't talked about what kind of job, I have no trade and certainly don't want to take a sales job that requires travel if we are in recovery ... ironically though, a sales job is what I'd be best suited for.

Regretfully I do not have morning prayers with my wife. I know I must jack up...

Do you have any home devotions with your missus?

WW had her first counseling session today ... not sure that it helped any ... the counselor is very much for saving our marriage ... so WW felt a bit ganged up on.

I sat and listened for almost an hour and a half about how this was all my fault. She's been reading a book that I bought recently to help me become more emotionally available ... the book is called "what women wish men knew" ... she read it and said see ... you don't get it, you've been missing it for 12 years ... but the OM, he gets it intuitively, he doesn't have to work at it. (props to myself for not LB all over the place - I endured it all patiently, told her I bought the book with the intention of growing and learning how to love her better.

She's taken to psycho-analyzing me now ... do i know who I am? do i know what i like? what i like to do? what i want to do in the future? what would be my dream job? - says she needs to be with someone who's got all that figured out and who's answers are compatible with hers. - The whole two hour conversation sounded like her trying to convince herself that I'm not the right guy for her.

But then, there were glimmers of hope. She asked if I would really leave my job ... I've told her 20 times that I would ... but I think she was really listening this time. I explained the policy of joint agreement and I think she sort of got what I was getting at. Her response was that we've wasted 12 years then

a little later (after the kid interruption) She asked what it would look like for us to start over ... i explained complete NC as the starting point ... then POJA and counseling to work through forgiveness and all the pain ... basically a total restart to the marriage, learning each other's EN and working to meet them, following Harley's rules. She heard me ... but I can tell that she thinks the road back might be a little too long.

on the other hand ... I'm pretty sure that she didn't really hear me ... especially about the NC part ... she started talking a while later about one of her clients who was pissed that she took a week off, so she was on the phone scheduling her sessions at the gym for next week.

frustrating.

realizing that if WW decides to return to our marriage that we're likely going to need a relocation included in our recovery and restart program. The gym she works at is literally 2 minutes away from our house, we drive by it everytime we enter our neighborhood ... I'm sure even seeing it will trigger both of us ... me the resentment, and her the addiction.

I know they were hitting it at a local hotel, went to hockey games together, played golf at a bunch of local courses, practiced golf together at the indoor range ... God knows what else is local that is now tainted.

To avoid triggers we're likely going to have to relocate. I haven't broached that one with her yet, I think I'll wait until she's committed to return. I don't want to add any more length to the road back at this point.

any thoughts?

Cool! you just spent 2 hours in a room with a falling down drunk telling you what a SOB you are so she won't have to look at herself. You feel worse, and she is even more protective of her drug of choice.

Now, do you see why Dr. Harley NEVER counsels couples together? Do you know what AA tells people who show up drunk? Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Or we escort them to the door.

I hope you didn't pay for this exercise in .......I was going to say futility, but that would be giving it too much credit. This session caused DAMAGE, it was not futile. Listening to this abuse will get you nowhere except worn down much FASTER at a time when you most need your strength.

Can I suggest that you save the counseling for a time when the falling down drunk is SOBER and it will make a positive difference instead of a NEGATIVE difference?

Dr. Harley addressed this one time on the radio with a brilliant suggestion. He told a BS in this same situation to MOVE to another town with his kids. He knew that the WS would have to move to the other town if the marriage was going to make it anyway. So if they reconciled, the WS would have to follow the BS and since it was in another town, they would at least HAVE A CHANCE.

See, you are very right. You will have a very hard time recovering in that town with the gym so close.

I guess i wasn't clear ... ww had her first solo counseling session, I wasn't there. It was after the session that ww decided to analyze me.

Counseling=waste of time rite now. I am not just SAYING it I DID it!! Luckily for me my insurance pays 100%. A few times I left feeling totally run down. The C said once.....it appears she doesn't love you anymore....DUH!!!

I'm excited about the possibility of starting again fresh in a new location without all the emo triggers around every corner.

sucks that we moved here specifically so that the kids could be near both sets of grandparents.

it's amazing that one person's selfishness can cast such a wide net of hurt.

we're not in couples counseling - ww went to see a counselor to help her sort through how she got here, and what she really wants.

Whew! I thought you actually PAID to listen to that fogbabble! Thanks for clarifying.

Did you see my post about moving? What are your thoughts on that? I thought it was a BRILLIANT suggestion from Dr. Harley when I heard it.