I've posted and had great advice on "just found out".
My biggest question right now is "how can I work plan A if she leaves out of anger when I expose?"

thoughts?

The question should be: "how can I save my marriage from divorce if I continue to enable the affair?"

Can you answer that for me? The greatest threat to your marriage is the AFFAIR, not exposure. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive an affair. Remember, your goal here is to save your marriage, not to avoid your wife's wrath at all costs.

I completely agree with you ... I'm no longer questioning exposure, I am expecting her to leave when I expose, and am wondering how to meet her EN if she's not around ... I don't get that part.

hopeful, do you want to save your marriage? Do you want what WE HAVE or do you want what YOU HAVE?

The best you can do in Plan A, since most WS's won't let you meet their needs home or not, is just to make sure they know you are willing to meet their needs in the future if they end their affair. That is the best you can do when one is in an affair.

Hopeful,

I feel your pain, it is a bit confusing on exactly to go about implimenting Plan A, when they aren't around.

Just make sure you work on yourself, take care of yourself, and learn about what it truely means to be a husband she would really want to be with the rest of her life.

Like it's been said on here before, stay upbeat when you speak to her, compliment her, check your anger, and try not to beg (which I have done), whine (been here too), or judge her (yeah again guilty). There is a fine line, the hard part is for us to figure out where that line is for our paticular WS.

Once the wall (fog) starts to lift, you may be able to do more.

If you are sick are you going to wait a week before you take the medicine?

Your marriage is sick. Why wait on exposure?

A lot of WW's threaten to leave and don't. If your WW was going to leave exposure did not do it. She had already planed it. She's just using exposure to place the blame on you.

This is the same warped logic that WW's use to do the OM.

What to you have to lose?

What your WW will really get made?

So made she will bang the OM?

Oh I'm sorry I forgot she's already doing that. I see exposure only helping. Exposure can't make things worse.

What is important is to convey to the WS that you understand the problems in the marriage and are WILLING to rectify them if the affair is ended.

excerpt from What Are Plan A and Plan B?

And keep in mind that most affairs DON'T END in Plan A. But when the affair does end [usually in plan B] the WS has a soft place to land because they know there is a future in the marriage.

Plan A (like all the plans) is for YOU.

While your wife is living at home but actively involved in the affair, all your attempts to meet her ENs will not make deposits into her LB$. She is in a state of withdrawal and your Plan A actions do not get through to her. So you are doing Plan A primarily for yourself. You are learning to be a better spouse.

Sure, Plan A has the happy side effect of making the marriage a more attractive option than the affair, but Plan A is primarily for YOU. When she ends the A, commits to NC, and goes through withdrawal, you'll be in the habit of meeting ENs and avoiding LBs. You'll make deposits like mad then.

I think you're wasting your time worrying about IF she leaves. What if she doesn't leave? Expose already. If she does leave then she'll be an adulterer AND she'll have abandoned her family. People will look at her knowing she's done those things. How do you think she will feel then?

What are her top ENs? They can be met if she's living outside the home, though it is more difficult.

Conversation: call, send notes, email, text messages, ask her out to lunch and chat. Do NOT talk about the marriage, the affair, recovery, the relationship!!! Talk about normal fun stuff.

Financial support: This is a great one because it works two ways. You can support her while punishing the affair. Pay the normal bills: mortgage, utilities, car, insurance. If you guys have talked about savings in the past establish a savings account or a college fund for the kids and let her know you've done that. Get rid of unnecessary expenses, especially if they're self-indulgent and she doesn't like them - like a golf club membership that only you use. Do NOT pay for anything that supports the affair - if she moves out, make HER pay for her rent, her utilities, her car, her groceries.

But you know what? She may not leave. And if she does, she's got the "I abandoned my family" stigma to deal with.

thanks again ... you're all getting through to me ... I found a post about the "carrot and stick" and finally get it.

will plan and act ... and post to let you know how it's going.

Glad its sinking in, hope! Please don't make the mistake of exposing in a half [censored] way. That is the equivalent of bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight; you will just end up SHOT for no gain. Going half way leaves the waywards slightly wounded and angry enough to retailiate. And their anger frightens some BS's so badly that they don't finish exposure.

So, use your best shot gun and take your BEST SHOT the first time. It should be a tsunami that makes it harder for the affairees to recover.

The best tactic that I know is to make up a list of key targets and expose on the SAME DAY. If you don't expose to all at the same time, you run a high risk of the affairees getting wind of your plan and PRE-EMPTING you. Trust me, if they know what you plan, they will get to the target first and spin you as a jealous nut who is imagining an affair. So when you do call, your credibility will be ruined and the person will scold you for calling.

So, make up that list and start making phone calls. Tell the target you are trying to save your marriage, tell them about the affair and ask for their advice. Hopefully they will offer to call your wife and have a chat.

Good exposure targets are:

1a. the SPOUSE or SO of the OP
1. her parents, your parents, the OM parents
2. her siblings, any friends who know right from wrong [if she has female friends who are enabling her, then don't bother with them - they are not real friends and are useless parasites of your marriage]
3. employer, if a workplace affair
4. any relatives that are close to your family

If you have children over age 4-5, I would tell them too. ALONE. Kids around that age understand the concept of right and wrong and they will need to understand what is driving the turmoil in their family.

But, please do it right, hopeful.

One more thing. There are so many "hopeful" screen names on this board that I know I will find it almost impossible to keep you straight with the other 500 "hopefuls." In fact, the day you registered, someone else registered a "hopeful" screen name. You might want to consider changing it to something unique or folks will never keep your story straight.

thanks ML ... changed the screenname to greatwhitenorth. Hope you can keep track!

Thanks to all of you who helped me out along the way last week. Sorry for the absence ... been working the plan.

So, the A is exposed, probably more gently than most of you would have done, but exposed and out in the light nonetheless. I am working Plan A, WW is still home and we alternate between good conversations filled with hope of rebuilding, and hopeless conversations that end with her saying "you should just let me go"

I've reread all of your posts, and I think I understand where we are, it's a difficult but good spot. I am in counseling to deal with my emotional unavailability (major underlying problem) and she will start counseling next week - couples counseling to follow.

She has not yet committed to NC ... they are co-workers and she is not yet willing to leave her job - long story, but her job is intimately tied to her self-esteem and sense of purpose. She has told OM that she is recommitting to our marriage and that their EA is over, though they will still see each other every day. I don't want her to have to leave her job, but she has to commit to NC if we are to have a chance. So, I'm staying the course, calmly but insistently telling her that she has to commit to NC. There are creative ways for her to do her job while committed to NC. In the meantime, I am becoming a better man.

So, my question for the day is ... is this normal, does it usually take a while for the WS to commit to NC once plan A is in effect? Am I correct in understanding that I can't really make deposits in her LB$ until she goes NC? Am I correct that if she won't commit to NC that I'll eventually have to go to plan B? I just want to make sure I'm going about this the right way.


one last question ... help me interpret this fog talk ...
"I'm giving you another chance because it's fair"

A little more info ... just cause it makes me feel good to share it ... ww broke down last night as we discussed the need for complete NC ... said with tears that she really wants to fall in love with me again. When she left for work this morning I kissed her and wished for her a great day - I could tell that she knew that going to work where the OM is was hurting me, and that is beginning to bother her (the hurting me part) ... perhaps the fog is lifting ever so slightly.

How was exposure gentle?

Who was exposed?

I have been reading here for years.

The affair will lie dormant at best without NC.

WW and OM must not work together.

***edit***

no need for the insult friend.

exposure to her employer, closest friends, colleagues, church community.

i agree that the affair will lie dormant without complete NC, that is what I'm working toward. I understand that this is the point of Plan A ... I am tempted to plan B if she wont go NC but it's only been 10 days or so - seems that Harley's recommendation is 3-6 months - I was hoping for quicker results but will stay the course.

so, to be clear. exposure has happened. she's bearing the shame. I am working plan A, she has not yet committed to NC. I am planning to stay the course with Plan A ... just want to be sure that I'm not missing anything.

I will propose a creative solution to her continuing in the job she loves in a way that will allow NC. I expect this will reveal how much she loves "the job" and how much of her refusal to leave the job is really because of OM. I'll do all of this with love, compassion and understanding.

I'm not delusional, I'm working plan A to the best of my understanding - just looking for those of you with experience to keep steering me right if I'm missing it somehow.

gwn, just as long as that creative solution involves them not working at the same company. And it needs to be said FIRMLY, with love; remember that part. She needs to understand you are very serious about standing up for your marriage. Any sign of wimpiness will not serve you well. It is good to signal that you are willing to forgive, but not good to REWARD her for cruel, thoughtless behavior.

In order for your marriage to recover, they can't work together, lest she will be perpetually triggered. If she is perpetually triggered, she won't withdraw and if she doesn't withdraw, you have no recovery. That is like sending the alcoholic into the bar every day and expecting him to recover by calling his drinks "business drinks." It won't work.

My suggestion would be to let her know that your marriage cannot recover as long as she continues to work with the OM. You are willing to stay in the marriage as long as the conditions make it possible for recovery.

Just be a broken record about it and be sure she understands your feelings on this.

Exposure at work might help you in this regard, though. It will put alot of pressure on them at work when everyone knows about their affair. Its no fun to have an affair when everyone is looking!

The timeline should be based on how much of this you can take before you lose all love and respect for the WW. You will know when you are getting to that point. Even if that is only a few weeks, then you should go to plan B




I agree with Road 100% on this one (minus the insults). She has got to get out of that job. While she is in it, they will be far more creative than you and will always find a way to continue contact. There is no middle ground here. Have you really exposed completely in the workplace? to Senior management? HR?

You need to do everything you can to get her out of that workplace immediatly. Trust me, this is one of those things you will look back on a few months from now and wish you would have done differently.

It means she is still in her affair, but has just gone further underground. After all, she still sees her lover every day at work. That means a continuation of the affair until she no longer works with him.

This is how affairs turn into 5 and 10 year affairs, gwn. I hate to tell you this, but you are facing a life of hell if you sign on for them working together. That is like dying a death of a thousand cuts.

When you say you exposed the affair the "soft way" what does that mean? Is the OM married? Have you exposed to his wife, his family? Have you confronted the OM?

Here is a workplace exposure letter that some have used here [sent to director of HR and the WS's direct supervisor]:

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

BS
_________________________

thanks again for the quick responses everyone.

The workplace is a fitness gym ... hr, ceo ... none of them care at all ... all are waywards it seems.

I'm proposing that she open her own studio ... this is actually the dream profession that she's been working towards ... I'm proposing that she leave her current employ, and the OM immediately, completely and finally to open her own studio ... I would support this and make it happen if it made for a NC agreement.

I will not sign on for them working together, believe me, I don't know that I can tolerate it another week. I am trying my best to operate in Plan A positivity by offering a workable solution alongside a firm and unwavering demand for NC.

who knows ... she may turn down the opportunity ... then I guess I will know where things really stand.


OM is not married, i don't know of any family ... he just left his fiancee in the last month or so ... presumably to make room for my wife ... vindictive thoughts running through my head at this point

Gosh, this brings back so many bad memories.

D-Day in my case was in May 2005. My FWW didn't stop working with the OM until December 2005. In the beginning I was also under the impression that they might be able to work together.

What really happened is that not only was recovery of our M delayed by over 6 months, the fact that I allowed such a situation to continue did a lot of damage to our relationship and adversely affected our recovery!

Don't make the same mistake that I did!

You say that you are a pastor, do you have a building that you work from? Can you begin gym classes near here?

Have you consulted with OM that he know that is unwelcome by you?

Lastly, a huge billboard around your car outside their gym would resolve a business matters. Lets see how the CEO handles that!

When she says that you deserve a second chance means that there is deep spiritual conflict within her. Share that you two are a team and you need her to guide you through this time.

one last question ... help me interpret this fog talk ...
"I'm giving you another chance because it's fair"
Mel nailed this. It means "I want to be able to say I tried to save the M but it didn't work out."

Counseling is pretty much useless while the A is ongoing.

The workplace is a fitness gym ... hr, ceo ... none of them care at all ... all are waywards it seems.
They don't care while it's gossip and hearsay, no. But when it's in writing and clearly shows all the people that were copied, it takes on a whole new tone. Now it's an officially documented workplace affair. If OM works at the gym then they're opening themselves up to sexual harassment charges when the A ends.


OM is not married,
Let me guess. Your reliable, honest, trustworthy WW told you this. And she got the info from the ever-so-honorable OM. Verify this independently. You'd be surprised how often this info is inaccurate. It boggles the mind.

thanks th ... you are right, the legal print and threat of a lawsuit would likely incite action within the workplace.

your interpretation of the Fogtalk was what I expected ... less egg on her face when she says she gave it another shot.

Om is def. not married, I know him, we hung out a bit socially when I was part of the club ...

Imagine asked if I've confronted OM, no - I haven't, not sure how to without getting thrown in jail.
any advice on that one?

Quote

he just left his fiancee in the last month or so ... presumably to make room for my wife ...

This is not good!!! Please tell me he has a new girlfriend!!!

man in motion ... It's good to know that you can identify ... I'm not intending to allow this to go on ... exposure doesn't seem to have forced the end yet ... but there are bigger guns, like the legal threats referenced below that will likely end both of their jobs, and likely end the A pretty quick.

If she does not end the A of her own choice with agreement of NC within the next week. I will do everything in my power to ruin it for them ... why wait a week ... to see if exposure does the trick and to avoid further damage to an already fragile relationship unless it becomes necessary to do so.

flynn ... my ww is the new girlfriend - at least in the bubble
I'm not sure if OMFiance discovered, or he revealed ... but they are done ... I know for sure from sources close to them.

Why have you not exposed to family members? Is there no one in the family of influence on your WW? Don't believe that this is only an EA. What POSOM dumps his fiance for a new GF without testing the goods out? Try to contact the exGF and ask questions. If OM dumped her, she'll probably be very happy to see him gutted. I'd confront OM as well. He's after cheap thrills. Is he signing up to play step daddy to your kids? I doubt it. Make your presence known.

Oh my, contact is still going on?! That just won’t work, never has, never will. There is not one example of a happily recovered marriage in the face of daily contact with a former lover, NOT ONE.


For goodness sake, her job is a fitness instructor? If she were president of IBM our advice would tell her to leave, but a “fitness instructor”? Foolish, foolish girl.

She must leave. I’m sorry to say, there is NO other way. Either she or he must leave. Tell her to pack her shorts and get out.

Either she leaves or you will soon find yourself in Plan B.

Mr. G

om is 12 years older, sensitive, sentimental, romantic (all the things that I've not done well in 12 years of marriage) ... living unhappily with his girlfriend.

Remember this guy is a professional at this!!! He flirts with women all day for years. This is not his first rodeo!!

What I was saying earier was that if he doesn't have a current GF and he and your wife are only having a EA, then he will be pushing even harder for a PA...if you know what I mean.

I would agree with Turtle on her comment. You wife has tried to remain above board within a thin frame work. This is why you need to remove the bullets from the gun.

A second chance means absolute NC with OM.

Is this a YMCA? How do you know none of them care?


How do you know he left his fiance? Do you know who she is? WHO gave you this information?

LOL! She had already said the SAME THING I was thinking. NEVER MIND!

GWN, please call her TODAY. It is very likely she has no idea. It is doubtful the OM would ditch his gf for your wife. That would be a rare exception. Either way, she needs a phone call from you to ensure she knows the truth of the situation.

I'm sure she has no idea ... I'm trying to figure out how to reach her - don't even know where she works, where she lives, what her last name is ...

as soon as I track it down I'll be in contact with her

good man!

Turtle,
why is counseling useless while the A is active? can't it help to lift the fog and help the WS determine to end the A and go NC?

GWN,
You ask why counseling is not useful in ending the A. If she is going for individual counseling, individual counselors are usually focussed on the "individual." They are frequently not thinking about the other people (children, husband) involved in the life of the "individual" that they are counseling.

They frequently encourage the "individual" to look for fullfillment for their own life by "finding themselves." They can actually encourage the individual to separate from the spouse in order to "find themselves."

The counselor can only act or give counsel based on what the individual is telling them. A spouse involved in an affair will likely tell the counselor very foggy information. Hence, the counselor can end up supporting the fog. You are a pastor, so your WW may be going to a counselor that supports your marriage, but I don't know if this is the case.

I hope you write a letter to her workplace like Mel suggests.

we are seeing the same counselor, first individually (for clear honest disclosure) then together as a couple. This counselor is for "the marriage" not for the flaky find yourself motif.

The reason counseling is useless while in an affair is because the affair prevents recovery. The goal of counseling is RECOVERY, an impossible goal while in an affair. The only thing that will lift the fog is the END OF THE AFFAIR. Many counselors aggravate the problem because they focus on FEELINGS, current feelings, rather than a strategy to save the marriage. And that is very dangerous when dealing with a wayward who is intoxicated by adultery.

Yup!

frig, plan A is hard. It really is day to day isn't it. Everyday WW walks out the door to go to work where I know she'll see OM nearly kills me. I want to rage. My kids are beginning to suffer from the heightened tension in the home. I've got to get my sh** together and start focusing on me becoming a better man and caring for my kids, instead of obsessing and wallowing in hurt and fear.

Looks like I'll have plenty of time to work on me as I'm likely to be placed on a forced sabbatical (church) until this comes to some kind of conclusion.

WW refuses NC ... I've been calm and honest in every request and have offered to create avenues for her to continue her job while committed to NC - she won't budge. I thought her remorse would be greater and her return would be sooner. I realize that I'm in this for the long haul ... aware that Plan B might become a factor some day.

Any suggestions on self-help material I can read on becoming more emotionally available ... seems the big EN miss has been emotional connection, verbal praise, emotional availability - hearing her, believing in her, supporting her dreams.

I'm a reader, and will have time - so fire your suggestions at me.

bracing for the long haul.

How old are your children and have they been told?


ARe those misses defined by HER? Or you? The key is to find out what her top needs are according to her. Have you both taken the Emotional needs questionaires? They key is meeting EN's, avoiding lovebusters and learning the use of the Policy of Joint Agreement. Do you have His Needs, Her Needs?

thanks for the quick response mel.

those misses are defined by her. explicitly. She has told me straight up where I've missed it in the last 12. Didn't tell me during those 12, told me now, once the A is on.

my kids are 8 and 6 - probably too young to be brought into the loop.

I have SAA and HNHN ...

we have not taken the EN questionnaire or looked at the Policy of Joint Agreement ... we're not really collaborating on recovery yet, it's more just me working plan A, waiting for the A to end.

I'm doing my best to avoid LB, but when the hurt breaks through it's an ugly scene, not anger, just gut wrenching sobs.
I find it difficult to celebrate "work victories" with a smile, knowing that she shares that world with OM. For example ... she landed a huge contract yesterday ... she was thrilled, and I was proud of her, told her so with a big smile and a hug ... but the scene playing out in the back of my head had her celebrating on the spot with OM before she got home to tell me. Keeping positivity moving around is becoming more difficult with each day.

GWN, I suspect that you are not going to be able to pull off a LONG Plan A if she won't end her affair. It is important to take into account your mental state. It will do no good for your family if you are beaten down from this abuse. You are all your children have and they need you to be emotionally healthy.

If she will not end her affair, a separation - Plan B - would be the Marriage Builders plan. And it makes sense if you think about it. When we associate with evil, we get sucked down into the morass ourselves. This is what happen when folks stay too long in abusive situations. They erode mentally and physically.

If it does come to that, you would want to consider how to get her out of the home via a legal separation that leaves you with the home and primary custody of your children. If it does get to the legal stage, you can have your attorney call the OM as witness to adultery if you are in a fault state.

When the WS won't end the affair, as in your case, it is a good idea to let them know that:

1. you will not live like this for much longer because it is too painful - the marriage cannot survive this way
2. if legal action is warranted to resolve the problem, you will be seeking possession of the house and primary custody of the children, filing on grounds of adultery [if you have grounds in your state]
3. you will be calling the OM to the stand to give sworn testimony under oath about the details of the affair
4. you will never be her "friend" if it comes to that - you would not want to be a friend with someone who hurt you so badly

The above message is very important to a fogged out WS. She is in a fantasy and cannot see the consequences lying in her path. She needs to know it will not be pretty to continue to abuse you and your children. Giving her a dose of reality often serves to wake them up somewhat.

She needs to know there will be consequences.

should I just leave off the discussion about her establishing NC?
I've made it abundantly clear that this has to happen - should I keep calmly flogging the dead horse, or is it important to persist with the statement of fact that until the A is done, we can't rebuild.

It seems that ww is looking for me to become a better man, so she can fall in love with me again, then she'll really end the A. I know that she won't ever fall in love with me again until the A is done. It's a vicious circle.

I'm beginning to understand that I need to become a better man for myself, and for my kids, and for whomever else is part of my life in the future (hopefully my currently ww) My motivation can't be rooted in her ... it's too discouraging when there is no reciprocation, only hurt laid upon hurt.

honestly, it's like she chooses to betray me again every time she walks out the door to go to work.

it hasn't even been a month ...
I expect more from myself.

Quite a bit of it is likely manufactured. I would ask her to take the emotional needs questionaire if she will. That will better identify her needs.


They very much need to be told. They need moral guidance and if you don't tell them - SHE WILL. And I guarantee you it won't be moral, it will be lies and rationalizations and demonizations of their father. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies. They need the truth FROM YOU [not a spun version from her] and then she needs to explain why she is willing to destroy their family over her adultery. Dr. Harley is adamant about telling the children and he is right.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:



Question put to Dr Harley from woman with 4 yr old twins and a 7 yr old:
This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect. I can email you this 1 hour MP3 if you want it: ohmelodylane@aol.com

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

GWN,
Those may be her emotional needs. But she is telling you that you have not met them in the 12 years in order to justify her affair. While she is in her affair, she will try to block you from meeting her emotional needs. She does not want you to meet them because then, she will have less justification for her affair. If you try to push too hard with meeting them, you will end up looking needy and weak in her eyes.

Remember, she is responsible for making the choice to have an affair. She is giving you a lot of fog-justification for her affair right now.

Have you been able to find the OM's supposedly ex-girlfriend yet? I think it is important that you find her and have a conversation with her. Your wife is telling you that it is an emotional affair. But you are also hearing that his girlfriend left OM. I doubt that it is an emotional affair and suspect that it is physical as well. OM's girlfriend might have information that would shed some light on this situation.

I truly doubt that this guy left his girlfriend for your wife and he is not involved in a physical relationship with anyone right now.

You may have more success in getting more information about what your wife is doing right now than attempting to meet her emotional needs in a way that pleases her.

Continually bring this up and the pain she is causing by seeing her adultery partner every day at work. Firm persistance is the key. If you don't bring it up, she won't think about it anymore. It is up to you to defend your boundaries and she can't be counted on to do so.


right, this is nonsense. She is not trying to fall in love with you. She is trying to endure you so she can continue her affair.

I will point out something very important, gwh. Women do not respect men they can run over. Our love is contingent upon the respect we feel. So keep this in mind if you feel you have crossed that line into appeasement, because that is a very bad place to be if you want to endear your wife. This is not about appeasement, but about standing firmly for your marriage without lovebusting. It is not [censored] kissing, etc. It is important to know this.

Your wife needs to see you stand up firmly for your marriage and your children't family, NOT sitting by allowing her to destroy them with unwarranted nice words. Just be careful here.


SHE IS. It is a death of a thousand cuts.

thanks all ... working on the OM ex-fiancee, narrowed down to where she works, so I'll contact their HR and try to get in touch.

I hear what you are saying about the kids ... that's hard, but it's right.

hard to keep my own head out of her fog.

contacted OM ex-fiancee ... they are still under the same roof, engagement ended in November ... she suspected my WW to be the cause but never confirmed ... I confirmed her suspicions today. So ... more exposure, he's about to get a world of pressure and panic on his end ... she owns the house he lives in. Mold doesn't grow in the light.

hoping there are some friends out there right now.

the sh** hit the fan today ... i exposed A to OMfiancee ... they are living under the same roof, still sleeping together ...

then I found out the straight goods that the EA is really PA.

Most of you knew that anyway, but I was hopeful enough or naive enough to believe her.

I confronted her on the lies, reaffirmed my commitment to recovery in our marriage, that there is forgiveness and a road back from the depths to which she has sunk.

She ranted a bit about how what I had done was not love (exposing to OMFiancee) and all that bs that usually comes along with the shame of exposure - you exposed me, that's not love, I'm going to be with the man who loves me (om)

so, she stormed out ... said she was headed to her moms.
I waited 5 minutes then went to her workplace, she was there, with OM, so I confronted them both together, assured them that there was no way that I'd allow my kids anywhere near the two of them ... caustic and destructive, untrustworthy in everyway.
Told them that this was only the beginning, that I want my wife back and will fight to see her freed from the fog of this A.

Then, for good measure, I made sure the receptionist/office manager knew of the affair, and reminded the CEO of the sexual harassment implications that will occur when they end the A and my WW claims that she was trading sexual favors for advancement in the company ... since the OM is senior to her in the organization.

So, OMW knows and is livid, she owns the house they live in, so I'm sure OM is out on the street tonight.
WWparents know ... and are livid, they are ready to intervene in a big way
WWbrother is going to hunt her down to talk sense into her, and hunt down OM with a big stick (better him than me)
My folks are caring for the kids, trying to keep them out of the mess.
Church leadership community knows all and is caringly confronting her sin every chance they can.

With CEO and harassement threats in play, they may both lose their jobs - sucks for him, he'll be left with no money and no bed. WW can come back to me for all the provision she needs.

This all just sucks, and the PA dynamic hits me hard since that was a sacred element of our marriage, both of us were virgins when we married, she can never get the purity of that back - I don't know at this point if I want her back.

deep breath. I know this really doesn't change anything ... she's feeling the stick of plan A ... the carrot is still in play ... i just need to reconcile to another layer of hurt and keep on with the plan.

If she doesn't return ... does that force us into plan B? My LB$ balance is pretty low right about now.

little help or commiseration?

GWN,
I am very sorry that some of us were correct in the PA aspect of the affair. Sounds like you have been very smart in what you did today.

Hopefully, you have created a fissure in the affair relationship in that OM will realize your WW is not worth the trouble that he now has.

Are your finances protected?

What State do you live in--is it a no fault State?

Do you have an attorney to make sure that you will be able to secure custody of your children?

i hope you are right about the fissure ... i threatened the two of them with the statement that I will not allow the kids anywhere near their relationship, looked him in the eye and told him that he's taking her away from her kids, wonder if he can live with that - that's some heavy karma.

finances are protected.

I'm in Canada, pretty sure it's no-fault.

No attorney yet - how do I secure custody ... what's the tactic?
abandonment, admitted adultery?

Unfortunately, he does not give a thought to the chidren. You know the drill about do not leave your home--right? Also, be careful now that you have confronted both of them regarding any tactic she might use on you to claim she feels you are threatening her physically.

You may want to consider getting some sort of recording device that you can have running if you think she is in the mood to call for police protection. You don't want to get removed from your home.

You need to find a good attorney to go over options of getting custody.

Others will be by soon with more advice.

How did you find out that the affair was PA?

GWN, I am so sorry you know about the PA now. I want to applaud you for bravely standing up for your family. The conflict you caused today is like chemotherapy to cancer. Yes, your wife is furious that you interfered in her affair, but her anger will wear off.

I would IMPLORE you to sit those kids down NOW and tell them about the affair and give them moral guidance. If you don't, SHE WILL. [and they won't get the truth] You have the affair on the ropes now, don't give up. Telling the kids will BRACE them for what is to come and it will also further smash your wife's fantasy.

You have inflicted a huge blow today on this evil affair.

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. Philippians 4:13

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." ( John 3:19-21)

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

Sorry that the EA is in fact a PA. Holding on to that tiny bit of hope just to have it snuffed out...BTDT Sorry.

Good thing is you have exposed and the walls of the A will start crumbling in. On Dday I did not want my FWH back. But I did want the A to end regardless because I would not tolerate skankho being around my children in any way, shape or form. FWH was always going to be their dad, but tramp-o-lean had to go. You have family for support. Lean on them when you need to. You need to take care of yourself too. As Mel advised, I would tell your children in an age appropriate manner. Mine are about the same age as yours and explaining basic right and wrong to them about the situation can be done without the gory details.

Thumbs up on the workplace and Church exposure. Did WW say she wasn't coming home?

she confided in a friend who told me. I confronted her and asked for the truth. she confessed.

premeditated rendezvous ... not some heat of the moment one-night stand.

GWN, while it seems scary, you are in a much better position TODAY than you were yesterday. Bringing this all out in the open in an atmosphere of conflict is much more harmful to the affair than peaceful coexistance. As it was, your W was planning on continuing her affair all along. Your W will be angry temporarily, but your marriage can survive that. You have shown her that you will fight for your marriage, and that is what she needed to see.

Does she know that her parents know? Are they going to take her in?

she knows her parents know ... they will take her in, but they won't support the affair at all - they will take her to task on her behaviour and hopefully help break through the fog.

so ... am I still in plan A?
she's welcome back home, I'm still avoiding LB and learning to be a better man, but insisting that the affair end.

I've not asked her to leave ...

still Plan A?

Yep! Just stick to the plan and say lots of prayers and hug your kids alot.

Don't try to reason with her [a waste of time] and don't allow her to bait you into a fight. If she comes after you again, just tell her you are so sorry she is upset about the exposure, but the OMGF had a right to know about their adultery too. In fact, everyone does. And...would you like a potato chip?

If she tries kicking you out, tell her NO THANK YOU.

you have all been a tremendous help tonight. I needed some friends to tell me that I did the right thing. I'm scared that she's gone for good - but I realize that if she is, she had already made that decision.

if you have more encouragement bring it on ... I'm a sucker for it tonight.

GWN, I just read the days events and you are doing great. You will not regret anything you have done in the last couple of days no matter what the outcome.

No one knows what will happen next for you. In all honesty most of the time they do not stop the affair right way. You should be under no illusion about that. But you have done the things you can do and you cannot control what she will do.

Plan A if you have it in you, but I suggest you go to plan B as soon as you feel you have too. It is not just the emotional toll this has on you and your family. If you wait to long you simply wont want her back.

You should be very proud of what you have done today.

WW will likely try to pick fights with you, guilt you, and draw you into her "poor me, you ruined my life" drama. Just let her have her melt downs and avoid engaging as best you can. Don't believe anything out of her mouth. She will be spinning her version of the truth every which way. The more desperate she gets the more bonkers she may become. Does she communicate by email with OM? Have you looked into a keylogger?

Did OMGF say you could contact her again if needed?

key logger is in place.
has been for a while ... mostly nice pleasantries, nothing salacious.

thanks for the encouragement. I am proud of manning up and walking right into their office, confronting them both on their turf and saying that I'm not going to stand for this.

I hope she breaks and comes back.
I suspect that you are correct that this isn't likely to happen quickly.

yes she did.

any suggestions on what I might tell the boys, they are 8 and 6

How long was the PA?

There is a rough formula that calculates how quickly recovery takes place based on the time in PA.

I wish SMB was over here because she has recent experience with this. But I would give them the facts. Tell them their mother is having an adulterous affair with a man from her gym. Tell them WHY adultery is immoral: "mommy is married to me and is only supposed to be with me, her husband." Let them know this has caused you great pain and that is why mommy and daddy are having problems right now. Explain to them that you are standing up for your family and will always be there for them.

I am so very sorry. This will be hard, GWN, but they will be better prepared for what is to come if you tell them. It will also be harder for your W to drag them into her affair unwitttingly.

PA was one event, 4 weeks ago.

Since they work together, recovery can't even begin until one of them is gone and WW commits to rebuilding. What is her personality? Is she stubborn? Needy?

As for OMGF, you could always give her WW's email and cell phone #. I know when my OWH contacted my FWH and told him the 921 ways he was a low life POS, he felt like dirt. It worked for me. LOL

I am proud of you, too.

she is generally stubborn, but last time I saw her she was pretty broken and disoriented, not really sure what she'd gotten herself into.

i will pass that info on to OMGF ... nice call.

Dang, I like it too..

REALITY has that effect on intoxicated aliens.

My kids understand that M is a promise for me to only love their dad and vice versa. They also understand the religous aspect of M. I told my kids that daddy had broken his promise and told lies that hurt me deeply. We talked about the consequences of lying, break their promises, and hurting people with examples they could understand. I then told them that OW wanted to be daddy's wife/GF and he was wrong to let her because he was supposed to protect his family.

I don't know how open you are with your children but I even took it a little further about respecting our bodies while still keeping it PG.

I have to go feed my munchkins. You are in good hands, gwn. I wish I had found MB as early as you did. Maybe would have saved me from destroying a few extra brain cells.

Watch out for Mel though. She packs some serious heat.

don't worry, br, I won't shoot the man.

LOL I know that.

If he was in denial or paralyzed by fear, I'd advocate pistol whipping him, but he's good.

exposure to OMGF seems to have tipped the scales ... all hell is breaking loose, outcome is uncertain, but at least we're no longer in business as usual mode, my WW wiping her feet on the doormat that was me.

Good! I hope the OM dumps your wife.

Let her burn. OM will likely throw WW under the bus soon enough so just stand back and wait for her to be charred and broken.

yep, i hope that happens sooner, rather than later.

good news ... tonight, she's at her moms - not off shacked up in some motel just to get back at me.

also, the OMGF swears he's not into kids, said he wouldn't have kids with her - no way he's going to be into taking my kids on as a part-time dad (not that I'd let him within 10 yards of them)

Dang, that means your W would have to choose between the kids and the OM. That is, if he is going to bother with this mess. I suspect your WW will quickly become too much trouble for him. After all, he is a man of low character and decency who was just out for some fun. Not so much fun when an irate H comes after you!

Next time you speak to the OMGF, how about asking for the OMs parent's phone #s? Maybe they should know what a scumbag their son is?

Wanted to add my 2 cents - great job GWN. You are now one step closer to R. This will be a rough ride but the OM confrontation with the WW is great.

Basic advice - now make the option of a loving home with a forgiving husband and kids more attractive than the sleazy affair with the POS.

From:
A Canuck now living with Texans

thanks for the 2 cents ... working on getting my head back on the carrot end of plan B ... the stick was plenty effective today.

Yep spread some icing on POSOM's cake. Heck maybe WW could even get an earful from her fantasy "in-laws"

I'm thinking that you may have to put her hand on the bible.

Read her the section of the old testament how they tested wayward wives. Then ask her to describe the number of times they made contact.

Do your sermons get better of worse from this ordeal?

feeling the full weight of betrayal today. Devastation might best describe it. I know you all can identify with that hollow feeling in your chest ... like your lungs are only half full.

WW went to her moms last night ... I'd already exposed to WWmother so I hope they had a good conversation. I'm not sure what to do next ... I know that sitting around brooding and waiting for WW to call or show up is not a good plan. So I guess I'll just get at the day, look after myself and my house and be a good father.

also, I told my boys last night ... that was very difficult, but the right thing to do.
they are 8 and 6, the script went something like this ...

"do you guys know what it means to be married?" my youngest responded "it's when a boy and a girl kiss each other on a special day" (too cute)

I told them that when you get married you make a promise to only love one person. That mommy promises to love only daddy, and that daddy promises to love only mommy. I told them that mommy was breaking that promise because she loves someone else. I also told them that the broken promise makes me both sad, and mad. I made sure that they know that she still loves them very much, but that what she was doing was bad and that we should pray that she stops breaking her promise.

I also let them process their feelings, both said (with tears in their eyes) that they were sad that mommy was doing something that makes me sad.

Thanks to all of you who encouraged me to have that conversation, it was necessary and right.

{{{{{{{{{GWN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I know it was so hard to do this. God Bless you and your little boys. You are good man who is standing up for his family and doing what is right even though it is very hard. I think you did a very good job of making it age appropriate.

Instead of waiting around for her next move, why not plan something for you and the kids this weekend that will get you out and away from the house? I would try to keep as busy as possible and not allow this train wreck to shut down your lives.

Another thing that helped me tremendously was getting lots of exercise and eating right. I hate to bring up exercise in this circumstance, but it did more to calm me down than anything else. I went out and bought the toughest weight lifting tape I could find [for women] and a set of dumbbells and lost myself in exercise.

I am not a big fan of anti-depressants, but others have used them to good effect.

Hang in there, GWN. This is going to get better, I promise you. At least now you know you have what it takes to stand up for your marriage. You did good.

GWN

Just a reminder - in the big scheme of things - a man's main responsibility is to provide and protect his family. Protect his family from any dangers especially an OM.

Sometimes we as men get hung up on jobs, careers, our buddies and the power game while the family becomes the appendages to the lifestyle. We lose the focus for the reason we are here for. All our work and games will go away but our family will always be there.

Interestingly in the animal kingdom like lions biologists have witnessed where a new dominant male will kill the female's offspring to make sure her attention is given to him, get her in heat and provide for his offspring. I think oddly we can and have seen this behavior with WW.

I dont know what character your WW is - sometimes this kind of exposure will blow away the fog quickly because they will witness the horror they have created. I pray that it is so for your family.

I sometimes think myself to be a “tough guy” but reading the above shows me to be nothing but a pushover.

GWH, you are the conductor to the symphony and every note is ringing in perfect harmony. While I sure can’t tell you that you will be successful I can assure you that you are doing preciously what can best save your marriage. Stay the course.

Mr. G

You are a good man, gwn. {{{gwn}}}

Expect WW to get bent out of shape that you would "dare" tell your children anything of her A. Keep calm. Don't engage in an argument. Don't apologize for giving your children moral guidance because she fails to. Let your boys know that if they have questions or want to talk about their feelings that they can talk to you.

Did you manage to get any sleep last night? Make a fun day with your boys; the park, ice cream cones, mini-golf. It will be good for all of you.

Prayers to you.

so ... ww is back ... committed to NC. Totally broke it off with OM (i know there will be relapses, not that naive)
changed work hours so they'll not be on the same shift ever. (that's a start - moving toward the ideal of her own studio)

so, now she's in withdrawal, I'm ready to love on her, and maybe start receiving some love in return ... any idea how long this awful tension lasts before she begins to re-engage in us?

plus, how do i lose the image of her being intimate with another guy?

anyone out there been the wayward - what's going through her head right now? I'd love to understand.

gwn, I am not trying to discourage you, but this is not a START. It is a NON-STARTER. Working on different shifts will not prevent the occasional sighting. And every sighting will put her back to Day 1 of recovery. She has to LEAVE THE BAR or remove the alcohol from the bar in order for recovery to take place.

Agreeing to this will damn you to a death of thousand cuts when this turns into an on-again, off again affair becuase she is triggered every day she goes to work.


You are sending the alcoholic into the bar every day and expecting her to sober up.

Here is what happens when adulterers continue to work together and is the very reason why Dr. Harley is "ADAMANT" that all contact end even if it means moving to another state. This was written by a Former WS on this forum and is a very vivid, articulate depiction of what happens:


No contact, lifechoice http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659249&fpart=3

Every time I read where a WS is still working with the AP I cringe because I know exactly where things are headed. I know I said this before, but I only worked 6 days a month and after I ended the A, of the 6, we maybe worked together 1 or 2. When I ended the A it brought relief and neither FOM nor I wanted the A any longer, but regardless I was hooked. Just seeing his car in the parking lot, his name on an work email, or anything related to him kept me hooked.

I never knew ahead of time if I was going to be working with him. If I pulled into the parking lot and saw his car I would feel happy and sad at the same time and if his car was not there I would feel relief and sad at the same time.

My therapist told me to journal and after I confessed the stuff in there just makes me shake my head. Now when I read the stuff I did, said, etc it makes me sick to my stomach. I honestly believed I was on my best behavior because we were not crossing any inappropriate lines or so we thought. Now I can "see" exactly what happened and how it fed my addiction to the A. All those "professional" conversations that had bits and pieces of non-professional idle chit chat, facial expressions, body language, the unnecessary walk-by's, the acknowleging everyone but him days, etc where so harmful. And then my poor H would get to hear all about it because I was being open and honest. I have no idea why he didn't leave me because of what I put him through.

In a sec I will add a snippet from my journal and a prime example of why FAP's cannot stay working together. I hadn't seen my FOM in who knows how long. Docp had recently asked for all the details of the A and I was a complete nervous wreck. When I got to work, FOM was there, I was having a really bad day and to top it off was exposed to TB by a patient. The TB deal was the straw that broke the camels back. I had a meltdown in my FOM's office and almost passed out. I asked him if I could sit for a second and that second of sitting lead to a conversation we never should have had.

We talked about Docp's and his W's reaction, how we all were coping, how stupid and weak we were etc, etc. Even sitting here now I remember the feeling I had and KNEW we should not have been having that conversation, but it was making me feel better when I felt like crap. What I didn't realize was I had just had a big dose fed to my addiction and the whole cycle started again.

Here is the snippet from my journal: (I changed names of course)

"It felt good to talk to him and clear a lot of this up. He even mentioned it was nice that we were able to talk and I feel like he meant it, not in an appropriate way, just a friendly way. (Ah, this from the person who has been avoiding talking to me forever) I felt like I was talking to my 'old friend" the way it was for years before we messed everything up. I told Docp about the whole conversation. He was ok with this conversation, but said he wouldn't be really happy if we started talking all the time. duh!!!!!! I just said I understand and didn't plan on talking to him about anything that wasn't work related."

OK, in all reality Docp was NOT OK with the conversation and told me he didn't care if I was going to faint or not I needed to crawl out of his office, not sit and chat with him. But in my happy place I honestly believed because I told Docp about the conversation it really was OK. I was completely delusional and thought because it made me feel so good, it HAD to be OK.

I had all this going on and I rarely saw my FOM, can you just imagine what is going on when people are seeing each other every day?

Anyway back to NC, I'm not sure if I simply missed it before, but it seems lately we have more who are willing to allow the WS to continue working with the AP and have a zillion and one excuses on why it's OK. I'm never surprised when they find out the A is still ongoing though because I could tell them the details of what is going on during the work day when the WS honestly feels they are on their best behavior.

i agree with you ... but it does demonstrate willingness to make some necessary changes. I'll take the small step and help her turn it into the major step of a total exit.

she's depressed and withdrawn, can't engage with family and kids.
certainly not receiving anything from me, but the wounds are fresh, so I hope that time will heal.

This week will be hell as she changes her clients over to evenings to that her path doesn't cross the OM ... they will connect as usual this week, may swing her right back into the affair and we're back to square one. I don't know what to do. I've insisted on NC, she's agreed that it's right and made changes that will apply, but any real attempt at NC is at least a week away. I know that more is needed but don't want to push hard on a fragile shell of a ww.

we are not out of the woods yet.
how do I love her in the midst of this?

there have been some dramatic moves in the right direction for the recovery of our marriage.
Full exposure led to the end of the A. WW told the OM face to face (I know you all prefer the letter approach) that they were through and that she'd have no further contact with him. She then told her boss that she's altering her scheduling to schedule all clients in the evening when OM is not around. She has verbally committed to work on our marriage, to pursue counseling and to try to give herself fully to me again.

I doubt the OM will give up since the exposure completely ruined any hope of recovery with his GF. I know that NC will not happen this week as WW transitions from day shift to evening.

She has agreed to inform me of any contact, even just visually across the room.

I know that this is not a total NC and we've not really entered recovery, we're in that grey area.

I will continue to provide options for her to move her clients to a separate facility so that there is no chance for incidental contact - expect that she will go for this as the fog clears.

I also understand that she is grieving the loss of what was a meaningful and fulfilling relationship for her. She is withdrawn, and hostile toward me for having force it to an end, but she's also here under my roof, saying that she wants to work it out.

Her affections are still cold, and her demeanor is disengaged. I'm not looking for sex, but even attempts at affection and non-sexual touch are met with a cold-shoulder.

I know that standard practice is to keep meeting her EN and avoid LB ... that maybe i can help move her from withdrawal into conflict and eventually intimacy.

when will she start to be open enough for me to begin to make deposits?

Am I reading all of this right? Is this normal? Can anyone point me to threads that deal with this early stage of recovery?

you've all been a lifeline to me ... cannot express my thanks enough.

gwn, instead of going through all this ADJUSTMENT to get to something that WILL NOT POSSIBLY WORK, why not adjust to something that WILL WORK? THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION!

She has not agreed that it is "right" if she is continuing to go to the same place. You are making a bargain with the DEVIL that you will come to regret by agreeing to this. You are taking an easier, softer way that will ruin your chance of recovery.

you had BETTER PUSH NOW if you want to have a marriage. The longer you wait, the less leverage you will have. Accepting a condition that PREVENTS recovery is not a solution, gwn.

Tell her NOW, TODAY that this will not work. Only complete and total separation and no contact from the OM will allow recovery of your marriage.

Tell her: I want our marriage to recover but that can only happen if one of you LEAVES that gym. I am willing to try this under those conditions.

This is hopeless. Recovery is impossible this way. You are accepting FOOLS GOLD.

Try this one:


Dr. Harley: In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?

so you think that it is a fallacy to think that there can be NC as long as they work for the same employer? impossible?

Dr. Harley:

"But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible."

if i were to write that she has quit her job, and will never set foot in the gym again, that she's broken up with OM, changed her cell # and email - given me complete access to phone records, email, cell, text history.

and that we're pursuing counseling and following Harley's plans
would you all applaud and say ... there you go, now you are in recovery?

is the real issue that you are all pointing out that until she quits her job that this is an ongoing affair, despite what rhetoric she spreads?

They are bound to see each other there sooner or later. And when it happens you will never hear about it. You only have the word of a liar. She will be triggered every time she sees him or his car.

This is how a 6 month affair turns into a 5 and 10 yr affair. I do not know of ONE MARRIAGE in the 8 years I have been here that ever recovered when the WS worked at the same place as her OP. In every instance it became an on-off again affair for years.

Every day she leaves for work could be THE DAY. You will have to wonder every day she leaves for work. You will never know. Nor will she will ever withdraw this way. Rearranging her schedule is WINDOW DRESSING that will achieve NOTHING. NOTHING.

Take it from the QUEEN OF CORNER CUTTING, this is a corner you don't DARE cut.

you got it! She will eventually see the OM at work, it is a foregone conclusion. And every time that happens, she will be TRIGGERED AGAIN.

I'm afraid that she doesn't love me enough, or want to save our marriage strongly enough to be willing to quit her job.

seems like she's willing to end it with OM but not leave the job

Then you don't have a marriage anyway. You have nothing to lose except a slow death of a thousand cuts. gwn, you have no chance if she continues to work there.

Oh no. She is not willing to end it. She wants to go further underground with your permission.

Settling for a death of a thousand cuts along with more of this affair is not a solution, gwn. You are allowing the drunk to stay drunk by changing the name of her drinks to "business drinks." That is all that is happening here.

then why not just leave me? why stay and talk all this crap about wanting to work it out.

why not just say it's over ... I'm out ... let's sign the papers?

Why? When she can have both of you?

hmmm.

so the true test lies in her willingness to leave the job.
and therefore om, entirely, forever.

This is all BULLCRAP if not accompanied by ACTIONS that nmake recovery possible. Wanting to work it out means nothing if she refuses to initiate even the most BASIC requiremnts of recovery. Her plan will not effect recovery.

If I tell you I want to recover but still go to the bar every day, don't my ACTIONS defy my words?

Your wife is a fogged out alien and she does not know what it will take to recover your marriage. YOU DO. Her plan is the easier, softer way. It is a HALF MEASURE. And I assure you that half measures will avail you nothing. NOTHING.

YOU ARE ALLOWING A DRUNK DRIVER TO DRIVE THE CAR.

A test of what? She does not know what it will take to recover your marriage. All she wants is to keep you both on the plantation and keep her life as intact as possible.

I hear you.
it's discouraging because I thought we were further ahead than we are. You are right, she hasn't really made any moves that make me less suspicious, or more trusting. Nothing that matches the gravity of the assault of her affair.

Left up to me, she quits, we move and start all over again with better systems in place to affair proof our marriage.

mel, thanks for taking so much time on you sat. aft to help rattle my cage ... and thanks for being gentle with the 2x4

gwn, thank God you are listening. I know how terrible this is for you and how tempting it is to settle for FOOLS GOLD. Since you are negotiating NOW, you might as well negotiate conditions that make recovery possible.

My suggestion would be to present this to her in a logical way, without making demands:

"I have been reading Marriage Builders and Dr. Harley is quite adamant that the first step to recovery means not working at the same place with the OM. If you still work together, you will still see OM occasionally and every occasion will trigger you. Also, it will cause me great worry and grief wondering about it every day. The only way for our marriage to recover is if you no longer work at the same place.

I am willing to try and work this out if you make recovery possible, and that means leaving the job."

GWN:

You might not be getting what Mel is telling you.

Your WW needs to leave this job she has. Period.

I will get back to support for this in a minute.

You started this thread with the title:


You have exposed, and done an excellent job of it, AND SHE IS STILL HERE.

So, that should tell you that waywards are pretty much the same.

You have blown up OM's world. As well as WW. WHO DO YOU THINK THEY WILL TURN TO FOR SYMPATHY?

Certainly not YOU. YOU caused this.

And guess who she gets to see every day at work? OM.

And WHAT has SHE done so far? SHE has made you a WHOLE bunch of promises, but has done NOTHING in the way of actions.

An action would be to QUIT the gym. A promise is: "I will reschedule my clients"

Question for you: HOW would you ever know that her clients were moved?

An action FOR NC would be for HER to give you HER Cell Phone and all her computer passwords. Her promise is: "I broke it off and won't contact him anymore"

Question for you: How will YOU KNOW she isn't in contact since she's still at the gym?

OK, lets get more pragmatic.

You state that she is REALLY WRAPPED up in her persona with the whole gym "thing" This is where she gets her self-esteem.

I'm cool with that. It's also where this A started and will continue.

How much does she make? What percentage of that is your family income? How employable is she?

Now, when you look at from that lens, opening a new gym, although a dream, is a non-starter. It takes cash to open, and run a facility. You can buy an existing facility, and go into debt to make it happen.

I did that. But it was an accounting practice. Guess what, it made it ALOT easier to continue my A in my own business. I foolishly thought that I would get rid of her by leaving the other place for my own. I was wrong. It made it SO MUCH easier.

If your WW isn't contributing more that 25% of the familys budget on an after tax basis, then her leaving this position and finding another, at another gym, shouldn't take to long. And the family budget will survive. If her A continues, then your entire families budget is at risk.

And she can whimper all week about how this was the "best" gym in Canada, and none of the others measure up. Of course not, they don't have OM working there.

Once she is out of the fog, and committed to the marriage, and making decisions based on reason and logic, and NOT A-crack, than you can expolre opening a facility for her. But that's at least a year to a year and a half away.

LG

An affair cause highs in the brains of the affair partners. The thrill, newness, endorphins, all create a chemical reaction.
These chemicals create feelings of happiness.

Every time the WW see's the OM her brain triggers and releases these chemcials that refuel the WW's addiction for the OM. Withdrawal will not take place if WW's body can't detox from the OM.

Alcohlic's are told they can never sit in a bar becaue the sight and smell will trigger them so they fall off the wagon and get drunk.

NC is the only way to keep an affair dead and coming back to life.

There is an old saying: Don't dump where you have to eat. Your WW chose to ignore this and poluted her job. It's not your fault that she has to leave their. It's her actions that require her to leave that job.

How are you and your WW going to reconnect with her working evenings and you days?

The gym IS a trigger. Everything about it will set her off.

Whats the story about kicking OM off the pitch.

thanks all ...

Mel, I like the logical approach.

her income is negligible - it's the connection and inspiration she gives her clients that is the drug ... she gets the ego stroke from "you've changed my life"

Regarding connection ... I work from home, and have been given a sabbatical to work this out ... we'd spend all day together.


the type of training that she does is equipment minimal and we've got perfect space in our new home for her to open a home studio ... the cash investment would be minimal.

I know rationally that NC and continued employ where she gets to continue to inspire her clients are do-able - but she's foggy, so we'll see where this goes.

There is absolutely no reason she can't do that, gwn. Let her know you are willing to work on recovery if she ends all contact with the OM. Tell her that will be impossible unless she agrees to leave the gym. And tell her "I cannot possibly have a minutes peace if you go the gym again. I cannot live like that. It is too painful."

Go tell her that right now..

GWN, I didn't really document my story very diligently here but it is very similar to yours. They worked together, in a fitness facility. The OM was engaged, I believed the job was incredibly important to my wife's self esteem.

I exposed, not as quickly or as thoroughly as you have. The OM was kicked out by his GF (A few weeks later she decided to give him another chance, that is why maintaining contact with her is important). My wife said she gave up the affair right away. Told him in person. She said she was changing her work schedule and he was changing his, they would practically never see each other. He was working towards leaving the center. It was going to take a couple of weeks, was actually more like a couple of months.

I was trying to see progress where there was none. It was a horrible torturous time that I will never forget. It took a serious toll on me physically and mentally. So much so that when I went to plan B a few months later I had simply lost the will to fight. I saw the opportunity to get a divorce on my custody terms and I moved full speed ahead.

To tell the truth I don't know that things would have turned out any different. But having had plenty of time to analyze the whole situation I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I should not have accepted them working together for one minute.

If I was to do it again it would be - stop working there immediately, and I mean do not even return to collect your stuff, or you have to live elsewhwere, And immediate plan B.

Its not a kick'm to the curb mentality GWN. By living with this emotional abuse I lost all resolve to pursue plan B when it got that point. That is the risk you run.

thanks BorW - sounds eerily similar.

I think I'm about to get kicked in the teeth, so I'm bracing myself ... WW says she called off relationship with OM yesterday, but she did it face to face and it took hours ... thinking maybe she changed her mind and lied to me about having actually done the deed.

She's been distant and avoiding me all day, told her mom she's likely to be going to stay there for a while and that she's going to take a few weeks off work (i'm not supposed to know this, but WWmom is on my side) - now, the kids are off with Grandparents this eve and we're going to "talk" ...

I'm expecting to have another layer of hurt laid on ... maybe she hasn't told me the whole truth, maybe there were others, maybe she's changed her mind and is leaving with him, maybe ... who knows - pregnant, STD? ... all I know is that whatever we're going to talk about is bad enough that she's planning to take time off work and go stay with her mom. (she wouldn't take even a day off work for us to discuss things up to this point)

definitely popping a clonazepam so that I can keep my emotions in check ... far as I know, we're still in plan A and I'm supposed to be keeping the LB in check and meeting her EN.

So, I'm resolved to listen intently, respond calmly with the truth - honest reactions without flying off the handle, and reminding her that there is a way back when she chooses to end the affair with NC

any scenarios you can think of that I missed? any advice?

GWN, the most likely reason she wants to stay away from you
is to give herself the opportunity to see the OM. Whether she really did break up with him ir not, that is likely her reason.

My advice, dont pay any attention to what she says tonight (or any time soon), look at what she does.

2 weeks off work is exactly the type of stalling tactics I was talking about. It is unacceptable. She needs to quit now. But you cannot make her, you just need to decide what to do if she doesnt.

What are her parents saying? Are they going to place any conditions on her staying with them?

And as far as what you do, GWN, all I can say is I do not reccomend living with somone who refuses to go NC. that is not what everyone here would say but that is my experience.

GWN, she has lied to you, I am sorry to say. She has not ended the affair. She just had another rendevous yesterday and told you she ended it.

The reason she wants to stay with her parents is because she thinks it will be easier to conceal her affair. It is not over, gwn.

Come back after your talk and let us know what she says, but I assure you this is not done and she is lying.

ok. this will come as no surprise to you ... tonight's drama surrounded her fury of being exposed. She said all of the things that Lala said she would (inside the wayward mind) she said that I had no right, that my actions have hurt so many people, that she was ready to get back with me until I did this, now I've disrespected her and there is no hope ever for us to recover from this ... btw ... then she plan B'd herself.

Had I not been in touch with you all here at MB I'd be undone, thinking that my exposure actions had ruined any chances of my marriage ever being restored. I know this is fury and it will quell eventually.

I told her that what I did I did out of love for her, to rescue her from the delusional fantasy that she was caught in, willing to lose all that she loves and holds dear for a fling with a POSOM.

I remained calm, logical, reminded her that I was here to work on our marriage once she'd established NC with OM for good. No half-assing of schedules - quitting the gym and moving on.

She's left, headed to her mom's for 2 weeks "to sort things out"
also says she won't be going to work for 2 weeks, not sure I believe that.

She won't be back until she's willing to NC and work on recovery, but she Plan B'd herself. I've cut off her cell phone and access to funds - I know she'll be pissed, but I can't enable their continued relationship.

this hurts like hell, and I sure as hell hope you are all correct in how this kind of thing turns out.

I'm just going to type out loud here because it's pretty cathartic. I know that if I hadn't exposed, the A would still be going on and I'd be the doormat that was allowing it, enabling it, and suffering for it. So, I exposed, and WW is pissed, so pissed she left (note the thread title) so now, even thought she's the bad guy, I'm the bad guy for exposing to the light the deeds done in darkness. WW says I've hurt all these people who didn't need to be dragged into this ... I say that were they not dragged in the A would still be going. At some point, I've got to be able to take responsibility and take action, for my marriage, for my kids, and for myself. I don't know how this will turn out ... will she run to the POSOM and have a longer go at it? if she does will I even want her back? Or, will she realize that I acted in love, to rescue her from herself and her own destructive behavior, and that in fact, I'm the one who has loved her most truly through all of this. Hell, she cheated on me, then lied to me, then lied to me again ... then proceeded to knowingly go spend everyday with this chump knowing that it was tearing me apart ... if we are talking about rights, I had every right to bail long ago - but we're talking about Love, and love transcends rights - love goes the extra mile - love will set out on a rescue mission even at great peril. Love will risk losing all for the sake of gaining the object of it's affection.

I love my wife who cheated on me and slept with a co-worker, lied about it, then revealed it, then proceeded to go to work and see him every day. I love her enough to face her wrath upon exposure, and I hope that I have love enough for the both of us to see this marriage restored when the fog lifts and the dust settles. I pray that she doesn't go vindictive on me and pursue the A again just to add hurt to hurt. That will make for a longer recovery than we are already in for.

someone please remind me how this is my fault.

Evrything sounds just great! And I am so very proud of you for standing your ground about quitting her job and not allowing her to bait you into a fight. You have the affair on the ropes, gwn, so this is now headed in the right direction.

Everything she said is exactly what we hear around here day in and day out. She is furious that you interfered with her affair which is GOOD! You can rest assured you hit the mark.

What will happen next is she will probably rendevous with the OM a few more times and he will dump her. She is surrounded by immense pressure that will doom the affair.

As long as her parents don't tolerate her adultery, I predict this won't last long.

You might want to put a GPS on her car and expose her to her parents whenever she rendevous' with the OM. here

This won't be easy, gwn, but it is headed in the right direction.

You turned on the lights in the crack house and angered the crack heads. You ruined the high. It is no fun to get high when everyone is watcing. You are so bad!

]

Please call your MIL and explain to her that your W had another redevous with the OM yesterday. Let her know that the affair is still on and -------------real important--------> ask for her advice. Asking for her advice and support motivates her to BUY IN.

It would also be helpful if you placed a GPS on your W's car and reported any OM meetings to her parents. They need to know if they are hosting an adulterous situation.

Way to go GWN! I was right there in your shoes not too long ago myself. I was a doormat for a while longer than you were though. But setting up boundaries was the best thing I did after exposure because it forced her hand; she was already planning to move out in a few months anyway. She did move out almost immediately after I setup strict boundaries of NC while in our home and now she is facing the reality of her situation--living in a tiny government subsidized apartment with little financial support, alienated family and friends, three separate visitation agreements with prior husbands, and she's dating Larry the Cable Guy (OM) who has two kids and a psycho ex-wife.... My WW's dream is coming true...???

Unfortunately she is still having the affair but she knows that I will not tolerate it on my turf and it has been a blessing for me to not have my nose rubbed in her A every day by her talking to OM from our house every night.

What you did has brought her A into the spotlight and all the fun of the fantasy is over now. It's probably just a matter of time before the A dies a natural death.

It's not your fault. Keep the faith.

i've never experienced this much pain in my life. why would someone who once said they loved you be willing to hurt you so deeply. My soul is in agony, my sobs have no sound. I cannot function, but sleep eludes me. pain upon pain ... that's some kind of LB.

Where is OM now staying?

ironically, he's staying at their boss's house

We know your pain. Stay with us and keep posting. You have shown strength...more strength than I at times. Good for you!

Deep down inside she loves you. But the fog of the affair is clouding her. Either that or she has been replaced by an alien

Either way it's going to be rough waters for you for a while. Be strong! Be calm, work on you and your family. Keep exposing if you need to. End the affair. Bring light to the darkness. Show the affair for what it really is...crap!

GPS her car, keylog her computer, flexispy her phone if you can. Snoop your tail off and prove to her parents that the A is still going on. Enlist their support.

Be strong. You CAN do this! Others here have and you can too!

thanks for the support ... when you watch your wife of 12 years ... ww notwithstanding ... pack a suitcase and walk out the door it rips your heart out, as if the A and the lies hadn't already done so. Cup of coffee and I'll be on with the day ... if any of you are praying people, pray that I can make it through this and still have some love left when she returns.

GWN,
I am really proud of you and what you have done over the past week or so. I remember when I first posted to you, I wondered if you would have the strengh to make a plan of exposure and all.

But you did it and did it well. You have read the materials on this site, you have given feedback about the events of you life, you have listened carefully to Mel.

Stay calm, but do not be cautious about letting her know that you are not to blame for the events. She is the one who is commiting adultery. If she has no blame in this, if she has done no wrong, nothing to hurt anyone, then why should she be so upset that you have told others of her actions?

thanks Lake. I've been trying to stand strong and calm as long as she was here and we were progressing ... now that she packed her bag, I'm allowing myself to feel ...

I'll stay the course.
Thanks again for all of you encouragement along the way

so ... I'm on to my "now what?" questions.
WW will want to come and see the kids ... she didn't even say goodbye to them when she left for MIL's.

I'm about to go read up on plan B - not sure that that's where we are but, from what I recall, it seems like a natural shift ... she left - so I should stand firm that her return is contingent on NC and commitment to recovery - right?

does that mean that someone should mediate between us, that ww and I have no contact until she is ready to commit?

I'll go read, but I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

(sighs deeply - still can't believe this is happening, wonder when I'll wake up)

What you should be doing is filing for custody on charges of abandonment and give her a big dose of reality.

That's part of the stick.

She's handing you a gift by leaving you with the kids.

there is no "abandonment" clause in where I live.
though I will be getting my legal ducks in a row, that's for damn sure.

gwn, I suspect she will be back soon so just hang in there. You have inflicted a major blow to the affair and she is licking her wounds. The affair in untenable and has no future. She would practically have to give up her children and her family for a thoughtless, deceitful man. It has a 95% chance of crumbling, so the odds are in your favor. Relationships based on deceit and thoughtlessness have no future.

This is far from over, so don't despair.

Do you know who the OM's parents are? Have you tried to track them down? The reason I ask is because exposing to the OM's parents would shut off that path and make it very hard for your W to show her face there if they knew who she was. An appeal to his parents to persuade the OM to leave your W alone might be very effective.

The fact that the affairees are both without a home is a hinderance to the affair. They are both suffering because of their choices, which puts more pressure on the affair.

Most importantly, I would be stay in touch with your in-laws so they can make sure she isn't carrying on her affair from their home. What is their plan if they find she is? Because I assure you will try.

mel, I haven't tried to track down OM parents. Good thought though.

As for my MIL she will not tolerate WW seeing the POSOM as long as she's staying at their house.

I will be GPSing the car today so that I can keep tabs and inform the MIL if there is contact.

Perfect.

mel, lake,
can you help me with plan B ... she's gone, but she'll want contact with the kids - how does this work, should I make her schedule it with me, have someone mediate the exchange so that we don't communicate?

or am I jumping the gun on implementing B ... I could still operate in A ...

help me out, I'm not sure how the rules have changed now that she's left the house for a while.

Good about the GPS. Keep the line of communication open with POSOM's ex-fiancee. POSOM just moved out of her home and moved in with his employer. I am sure he has a lot invested with the ex-fiancee--stuff, clothes, stereo, etc. He will be back in touch with her and try to make up with her.

When you find out he has contacted his ex, you can tell your WW about it. Your WW thinks this POSOM is so caring about her and supportive of her. Yet he was still living with his ex-fiancee and lying to ex-fiancee about your WW. You will be able to further the rift between your WW and this POSOM. He is not in this for the long haul. I'll bet right now he is trying to figure out a way out of this mess with your WW.

He must not have much money if he was living with ex-fiancee in HER home. You said your WW does not make much money and POSOM and her are peers at the gym.

Hopefully, the employer will also get tired of the drama.

Mel will help you best with this question. But you are still in Plan A so you want to communicate with her in person. You are now the strong loving husband and father who is protecting his family. She needs to see that part of you for herself. That is a big part of your current Plan A. You are the strong one taking a sabbatical to take care of your family and to take care of yourself. She needs to see you in this light.

I do not think that she should be able to use any intermediary to talk to you about your children. She should have to approach you. You set up your boundaries about how you want her to see your children in order to protect your children.

But listen to Mel--she trumps me.

POSOM does not have much money ... trainers don't make a ton.
OMGF is the one with the big job who paid for the house and everything. I speak with her daily. His stuff is in garbage bags on the front porch ... according to her, he'll never see the inside of "her" house again.

WW and POSOM would have to live in squalor to make a go of it.

I bet that they make 50K together.

The employer takes 60% so he'll be tolerant for a while, gym owners are like pimps ... he'll want to keep OM around since he's a top producer ... WW on the other hand ... she's likely to take the fall.

gwn, Plan B is a long way off. If you shut the door right now in a dark Plan B you would be throwing her into the arms of the OM because she is detached from you. A good solid Plan A will give you a strategic advantage as the affair crumbles. As the affair crumbles - and it will - you will be a soft place to land.

For now, your best strategy is to focus on the best Plan A. And that means no lovebusting while at the same time, standing firmly against the affair and refusing to cooperate with any separation schemes she offers.

She is probably scheming right now to see how she can keep her affair and you. That might mean getting money from you and an agreement to be "friends." You don't want to do either. The offer to be "friends" will mean: "please cooperate while I destroy you." Be wary of FOOLS GOLD deals that she comes up with now in a last gasp effort to keep her affair and keep you meeting her needs.

more later..

That all sounds good. It is really good that you went into that Gym and said your piece. It let the owner know that you are not going to put up with shack-up nonsense and that you could cause problems for them. Your WW will not be worth it to them.

thanks ... Plan A it is.
Off to buy a GPS.
Look forward to the "more" the you mentioned Mel.

any ideas on where to hide a gps in a car with clear view of the sky where ww won't see it ... it's about the size of a cell phone.

gwn, go ask carp. He has experience with this.

GWN,
If you are still looking at the forum, I just bumped a GPS thread for you.

ww came by today to see the kids ... we talked - if you want to call it that. she's still pissed about exposure, talked about separation, threatened to jump right to divorce. Again, it's all about how I've wronged her and hurt people unneccesarily through exposure - somehow I'm acting like a lunatic (that's her word for a desperate husband who's trying to rescue his wife and save his marriage)

in short, nothing has changed ... she's with MIL, the A has not ended, and she's "trying to make up her mind" ... more BS ... dragging out plan A.

I've got to tell you I'm getting tired of this.
didn't manage to get the GPS on the car, but doesn't really matter since she's said straight up that NC is not in play.

here we go again for another week of hell.

death by a thousand cuts.

Have you asked your mother-in-law for her advise? What was her advise? Didn't you say that her parents would not tolerate her having an A while living under their roof?

Is her father still living with her mother?

Did you see the thread I bumped up about GPS devices?

The exposure was very recent. It is not surprising that she is still trying to spin the story and get a rise out of you. Sounds like you did not take the bait. Good job.

GWN, right now things seem hopeless and endless. It may help you to establish a date in your mind when you will end plan A. The date should be based on how long you think you cancontinue plan A. I would err or shorter rather than longer, perhaps only a few more weeks. It is easier to deal with this stuff if there is a fixed timeline in mind. When the date comes, you go to plan B or, if you think their is value in sticking with plan A a little longer you pick a new date.

I am biased based on my own experience but I would go with weeks rather than months.

All your actions regarding the A will be seen as "lunatic" when there is a very real method to the madness and very solid reasons why you've done what you've done.

You won't be able to educate her, though. At all. I will past the 180 for you. Enact it and start following it. This will make you more attractive to her.

It's counter-intuitive, but you have to start acting like you're moving on with your life, to the point where you have her wondering what you're up to and where you're going and even make her wonder if you've decided to start dating (it's an illusion, do no such thing).

I'll post the 180 and send you a link to the success story from MB to give you an example of what I mean.

Her's the posting from another forum:

This 180 list may help.
--------------------------


For those that are interested in Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting 180 degree list, here it is:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.



2 things to think about if you do this:

1) You have to do the 180 list NOT to be manipulative but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. So you have to be geniune when you follow these ideas, rather than faking it and being insincere because your only goal is to get them back. That's not what you want to do. Having a certain person as our spouse is not a need, it's a want. When I wrote down a list of all the definite needs in my life, I realized that almost everything beyond food, clothing and shelter is a want. 10 seconds after I looked at the list, I stopped making decisions based on emotion. That's when I realized that my wanting to have her was causing me to beg and plead for her to come back. That was driving her away more so I stopped doing it immediately. In doing my own version of the 180 list I could tell nearly an immediate change in her behavior.

2) Realize that when your spouse sees your new attitude they are very likely to be a little jealous or at least have some curiosity about what's going on in your life to cause this change. However, they very well may react the same way towards you for some time (especially if they read books or go to message boards also). REALIZE that this tactic can also work simultaneously on you if the spouse begins to likewise. Be aware of it and plan to have your own feelings of jealousy and curiosity in advance. However, like with #1 above, if you're doing the 180 list to better yourself and everyone involved, then it will matter less what they are doing.



Here is the success story:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=014880;p=1

nonononononnoooo, this is not DEATH. This is LIFE. Your pain comes from angry spite of a crackhead who just had her crackpipe snatched from her. That is LIFE. The only DEATH here is the AFFAIR. The death of the affair means LIFE to your marriage and your childrens family.

You are watching the dying gasps of an affair. Keep that in mind and thank the Good Lord for this gift. Dont' allow her fury and spite to discourage you. You have the affair on the ropes and that is why she is so hateful to you.

Stay the course, pray alot and most of all, IGNORE the fury of the scorned crackhead. She will come to her senses.

In the meantime, please contact your MIL and make sure she is fully aware that your wife LIED about ending contact and has every intention of assuming her affair. Your wife LIED about ending the affair. She needs to know.

I disagree with the 180° a6t this point. He should be doing a great Plan A right now. He's exposed and he needs to MARRIAGE BUILD which is why he is here I think.

While some of the elements of the 180 are helpful, there are others, like the ones above, that are in direct contradiction to Plan A and will hinder, not help.

Melody,

Ugottatri here...I'm sorry to jump in here, but I'm looking for NC letter examples and was told they are in SAA, but don't know what that is....Can you help?

This is all pretty much par for the course. When I discovered my wife's affair I did pretty good nuclear exposure immediately.

My wife left me and went and lived with an enabling girlfriend. The first day she was gone, her phone didn't stop ringing with people putting pressure on her to end her affair. She even got a call from the executive pastor at our church (a coincidence - he didn't know about the affair) She thought she was being set up pretty good.

She used to come around after work at night to see the children. (then 16, 14 and 12). She was shocked when the kids told her they wanted to stay living with me rather than her and her boyfriend.

She had been planning a whole new life with this man - but I discovered the affair before they were ready to execute their plans. The affair ended that week and a week after that she returned home.

She NEVER resented exposure or anything I did to save our marriage.


Your MIL is supporting your marriage though so this is very good! Her affair is doomed. My wife came back for a number of reasons (none of which was because4 she had any love for me - she didn't) The main one was that the children were acting "weird" with her when she visited. She also felt very convicted by God when she was driving home from work one night and a few other things happened as well. God came through and saved the day.


I very much understand your desperation right now. But be assured, the affair will end and if she goes NC with OM your situation will improve dramatically.

GWN,

Just wanted to chime-in and offer some support. Bigkahuna is right - this is text book. Try to ignore the fog speak. WW's can be very manipulative and are extremely self-serving.

I too have walked this path and although my FWW said that I ruined any chance of reconciling, her anger subsided in about two weeks. Give it a little time.

Take pride in the fact that you are working hard to save your M. You are your kids' hero.

- Sh0cked

thanks, just got off the phone with WW ... she left 4 hours ago to head to MIL's just told me that she'd like to come back here to sleep since she's headed to work tomorrow at 5 am (obviously NC is not established)... difference between a 5 minute drive and 45 minutes to meet a 5 am client.

She's been with Om for the last 4 hours. I don't know what to say or expect. Told her she's welcome to come and sleep here but this is unexpected, I don't know what's going on.

lord have mercy, christ have mercy.
yoyo rollercoaster emotions. I was just about settled into a fifth of Jack Daniels to fend off the nightime loneliness demons.

anyone got a clue wtf?

Why didn't she go to her mothers? Because she knows her mother won't let her stay there if she is in an affair?

She's sleeping on the couch right?

gwn, a couple of things come to mind. I would be sure and let her know how hurtful it is to you and your kids that she is openly and brazenly committing her adultery. Have this discussion right smack in front of your kids.

Ask her to sleep on the couch until she gets STD testing and to please respect you and the boys and not come here after her next adulterous tryst. It is a grievous affront to you and the boys. Perhaps she should go stay with her parents or in a hotel the next time.

See, I suspect she wants to come there because she KNOWS her parents won't tolerate her open and flagrant adultery. She has nowhere else to go. So if you ask her to go elsewhere next time, AND confront her about her adultery, she will think twice. She won't want to have to answer to you when she gets home.

so, why am i letting her back home after she just spent the evening with POSOM, am I stupid, has the fog worn off on me?

I wasn't prepared for this one.

melody gave you got advice to save the evening.

You are meeting her emotional needs by being there for her. Good thing!

morning update ... WW arrived home about midnight, I was asleep on the couch (backwards I know, but that's where I happened to fall asleep) she told me she'd been at her boss's birthday party - i had known about it weeks ago so no real surprise, and that the OM was there (BUT NOTHING HAPPENED) - I didn't ask so I think the shakespeare line "me think she doth protest too much" applies here.

anyway, she went upstairs to sleep, then about 4am woke me up and asked me to come and cuddle with her - intimate details I know - so I did, and it was nothing more than that - I asked if there was something she wanted to talk about, what she had in mind ... no conversation there, just needed a warm body near I guess, or felt sorry for me sleeping on the couch.

we had coffee together this morning, I assured her of my love, and my resolve to see this through, that my love for her is big enough and strong enough to survive all the hurt and pain of betrayal and lies. I can forgive her, I believe in her and in us. I believe that she can be "in love" with me again, and that our marriage can weather this storm.

She headed off to work with tears in her eyes, nervous to face the rumor mill (mass workplace exposure happened on Friday and she hasn't been back since). She needed several embraces and several reassurances of my love and care for her before she headed out the door.

The kids have the day off today so we're planning something fun ... I asked her to call me if she wanted to join us.

She's still planning on taking the week off work and staying at her moms to sort things out. I just spoke to her mom, and she's getting the full treatment from her mother ... the full "come to Jesus, get your head on straight and get off the drug of this affair" every minute, meanwhile her mom is a wreck and spends the whole day on her knees praying when she isn't lecturing WW

Heard from OMxGF ... she's put his stuff out the house, changed the locks and is gone for a week to find some stable footing. She was floored by the revelation - part of why I'm such a bad guy for exposing ... funny thing is, she thanked me for respecting her enough to tell her, even though I hardly know her.

Holding steady at Plan A ... wish I could get her to take the EN questionnaire ... any suggestions on how to introduce it?
She's the type that thinks I should know her needs intuitively after 12 years of marriage.

No, I wouldn't even bother until the affair is over. She is still planning on conducting her affair, gwn.

That has to be addressed. She tricked you and her mother into being with the OM yesterday. She lied about ending it.

I am concerned that you are coming across as REWARDING HER for her abuse, rather than expressing your pain and alarm. When she is catting around with her adultery partner, she needs to hear your pain, not soothing sounds of unwarranted forgiveness. Forgiveness needs to be earned, not doled out while she commits the crime.


Silly.. You are a man, not a psychic.

Please go back and read my post about confronting her at every turn and putting the pressure on from her mothers house. [without lovebusters] She is playing a game where she thinks she can go from house to house and cover up her trysts.

And....get back in your bed! Don't sleep on the couch.

I say chill for now until she appears more receptive and then simply say, "I have a questionaire that would help me out. It will help me understand you better so I can be a better husband. Would you mind filling it out?"

That's an idea, anyways.

You might have an idea of her needs after 12 years, but who really knows.

She's a fitness instructor, so physical fitness must be high on her list. What's your level of fitness?

You mean she didn't scream "how dare you hurt me by telling me???" :MrEEk: I always chuckle when folks tell me they don't want to expose to the other BS because it would "hurt them." Who came up with that "logic?" The devil?

thanks mel, I called MIL first thing this morning to let her know where WW was last night and who she was with. There are no safe havens - though the kids were asleep, so I couldn't involve them, I calmly told her how hurt I was that she had chosen to see him again last night, then to have the audacity to come back home to my house. I'm not ready to plan B her yet and kick her out ... but you all know that there is only so much love in the club and that you bleed out a bit quicker with each successive cut.

[/quote]
You might have an idea of her needs after 12 years, but who really knows.

She's a fitness instructor, so physical fitness must be high on her list. What's your level of fitness? [/quote]

I'm about 380 right now and eat a box of twinkies for breakfast ...

no, I'm in good shape, not ripped or anything,6ft, 180, size 33 - better than average ... she'd probably like it if we worked out together and did more active things ... working out together will take some resentment therapy as that is where most of the EA developed.

You might have an idea of her needs after 12 years, but who really knows.

She's a fitness instructor, so physical fitness must be high on her list. What's your level of fitness? [/quote]

I'm about 380 right now and eat a box of twinkies for breakfast ...

no, I'm in good shape, not ripped or anything,6ft, 180, size 33 - better than average ... she'd probably like it if we worked out together and did more active things ... working out together will take some resentment therapy as that is where most of the EA developed. [/quote]

I am with you there, gwn, you might be triggered off the charts in that pursuit. Even so, it is doubtful that is an EN. Rather, the EN would be RECREATIONAL COMPANIONSHIP or CONVERSATION, both of which can be met in ways that don't trigger you.

gwn, what are your kids saying to her about her affair? Did they mention it yesterday? Does she know they know and what was her reaction?

mel, I reread what you said about rewarding her ... I'm certainly not trying to do that ... In hindsight, I probably should have told her no, that she couldn't come back and sleep at my house last night ... I knew she was with OM in some context, she'd said she was going to stay at her moms. I should have held her to her word, instead I guess I came off as a doormat again. Here for her when she needs me. A little too much carrot and not enough stick perhaps last night.

I really do miss her though - I guess I'm as much of an addict as she is ... but I'm addicted to my wife.

gwn, would the OM's GF give you the OM's parents phone #? They need to know about the affair too.

gwn, this is a very fine line, so please don't beat yourself up here. I think since she was playing a game of cat and mouse to fool her mother and get in a tryst with the OM, you might have said, "don't come home tonight - we'll talk tomorrow." On the other hand, you just don't know. i will tell you that it is very dangerous to kick a spouse out at this juncture, because it can cause more harm than good.

So, you probably did the right thing by allowing her home. The only thing I am suggesting is that you don't REWARD her when she does this, but tell her how very hurtful her actions are to you and the children. Ask her "were you just with your adultery partner?" [use terms like adultery and affair every time] She needs PRESSURE when she does this. It is a very fine balance, gwn, and you just have to play it by ear.

I think you are doing GREAT, so please don't think I am suggesting otherwise.

I hear ya, friend! {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{gwn}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I think you did just great. She's going to go to work today and face the music, and in the back of her mind she'll be remembering how you're not raging at her or kicking her out of the house. It is critical that you avoid LBs and meet ENs while she's teetering like this. You want to make the marriage a very attractive option. You're doing a great job with that.

Like Mel said, it's a balancing act. You want to meet ENs and avoid LBs but you don't want to be a doormat. You want to be calmly but brutally honest with her about how her actions are affecting you and the kids.

Don't worry too much right now about every little action and every tiny nuance. As long as you stay the course you'll win the war, regardless of how each tiny skirmish goes.

Do continue posting here about your interactions and how things develop, because it gives experienced people more insight into whether the pendulum is swinging too far one way or the other (doormat vs. tyrant) and the more info you provide the better advice you'll receive.

And just quit the talk about "I don't know how long I can take this" - it sucks, it hurts, it's horrible. We know. But this is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to be in it for the long haul. Things are going to be up and down for quite a while, and you're going to need to work hard for many months. If you keep your eye on the long term goal rather than letting each interaction get you up or down (easily said, hard to do, I know) then you'll find the roller coaster is not quite so out of control. It will still be there, but your focus on the end goal will help you weather the ups and downs.

gwn, I just thought of another way to inflict a huge blow on the affair while keeping yourself out of the line of fire. Would your MIL be willing to go see the OM? Would she be willing to call up his parents and implore them to use their persuasion to get their son to leave her daughter alone? This can be a powerful exposure and while there are no guarantees, we have had affairs killed this way.

MRsW's mother called the OM, for example, and told him he was facing a life of hell if he didn't dump her DD NOW. He dumped her pronto. In your case, your MIL could tell the OM that he will NEVER be allowed to darken her doorstep and he would be eternally hated by your children for breaking up his family.

It would also ruin the future prospects of the affair if your W can't show her face at the inlaws. If they know this is an affair, it would cause your W great embarrassment.

And see, if your MIL did this, all her wrath would be directed at the MIL instead of you.

Good morning gwn.

You are doing great. Turtle is right. You need to focus on the long term. Sometimes it helped me just to take a drive and bawl my eyes out or scream. Having a release like that can be cleansing and I didn't feel like I was going to explode every five minutes and could refocus myself.

As Mel suggested, I'd really try to track down OM parents. Assuming they are normal folks with a sense of human decency, they will not want to welcome a skank into the family. OM having to see the disgust of his parents can be a powerful blow to the A. If OMGF won't give you their contact info will she expose to the parents. I know OMGF is devastated but what is her mindset right now? Does she just want to wash her hands of him and move on or is she willing to nuke him hard?

spoke with OMGF ... she wants no more to do with this ... is moving on and will not provide contacts for OM family.

MIL would contact OM if she knew how, and she'd rip him a new one, he'd know with complete certainty that he'd never be a welcome member of their family.

WW is really breaking emotionally, she can't keep it together ... staying with MIL, not going to work for the rest of the week. Can't confirm NC with OM ... I have no idea about that but MIL is insistent.

No doubt the last impression of home for her was warm, forgiving and positive.

I'll be looking after myself, and my boys, and likely looking for a new job this week. Wish me luck.

GWN, one way you might find the OM's parents is to do a search on http://www.intelius.com/. If you know what town he is from, you could try directory assistance.

Will your MIL have a chat with him?

I also would coordinate with your MIL so that your wife does pull another stunt like yesterday. Maybe agree to call the other if your WW says she is coming to see you or vice versa. That way she can't get away with giving you both the slip again.

Explain this piece to me... Are you moving from your pastoral position. Was this planned???

interpret this conversation for me ...
context ... ww is staying at MIL's ... called this morning hoping to catch the kids before they left for school, she's missing them. I told her I was missing her.
after the requisite small talk she asked me if I understood what happened ... understood how she ended up falling for another man (no mention of her choosing to have an adulterous affair with him) I explained yes ... very compassionately outlined the short story of our 12 years, her most important EN being neglected, her frustration unnoticed, my lack of emotional availability, her inability to pursue her dreams (lack of a green card, cdn living in the US) ... now, as of 2 years ago, we're back in Canada, she is pursuing her dreams, successful, self-esteem is recovering, she is someone who is making a difference in the world, then along comes this POSOM who notices and meets her most important EN ... she falls "in love" with him - do I understand? Yes - and yes we're intentionally leaving off the "you chose to have an adulterous affair with him" part for now.

WW then asks what is really going to change? Can I become a different man who will not neglect her dreams, and will meet her most important EN (she didn't use MB language but that's what she meant). Then states "I will not spend the rest of my life in a relationship where I don't feel loved and where my needs are not met and where my dreams aren't taken into account and where my,my,my ....

I respond gently, that I believe in her, I believe in us, that I can change and become a better man, that I am in counseling to work on emotional availability and that once she ends the A and we are working on our marriage we can learn how to meet each others EN.

she used the phrase "how can i be sure" - obviously, she's looking for assurance that I'll change.

more small talk ... I mention (still answering the question "do you understand what happened?) that I understand that at some point she made the choice to turn this into an affair instead of coming to me saying ... I've begun to realize that there are some unmet EN in me that we need to talk about ... you need to learn how to meet these so that I don't fall for another guy. She jumped in deflecting, not wanting to talk about the affair (her bad) but what led up to it (my bad)

more small talk ... says she's going to hang up, amicably ... I say "I miss you and I love you" - no response, we hang up.


three minutes later, she calls back, tells me that when I say "I miss you and I love you" that it sounds empty and condescending, like I'm treating her like a child ...

I break down on the phone and explain to her how I miss her, that I can't sleep in our bed because she's supposed to be in it, that I can't use our bathroom because it smells like her, that I weep when I pour my morning coffee because it's one cup, not two - that I'm unbearably lonely when the kids go to sleep because she is not there. (at this point, I can't speak for sobbing) I say again that I miss her, and I love her. Hope she didn't think it was condescending the second time around.

she was feeling sorry for me ... hearing my loneliness ... and asked if I wanted her to come over ... I said yes, but no. I told her again that I missed her and wanted nothing more than to be with her, but that I don't want her back for an afternoon, I want her back for good.


so ... interpretations please.

well, this is a tough one

... if we stay together and begin recovery, it'll be a long road and a long time before she's willing to ever face those people again. Also, the church (it's a church that I started from scratch 2 years ago and grew two over 200 people) is deemed to be part of the problem in her mind, it is a trigger point - my church career inadvertently kept her from being able to pursue her dreams, contributing to some of the emptiness.

... if this ends in D ... I'm not sure that the church will have me back, and I am sure that I'll be in pretty rough shape and not really in a good place to do the job.

so, in either case, I'm beginning to think that the best thing for the church is for it to move on without me ... I'm not making that decision now ... but it looms on the very near horizon. A two-month sabbatical will go by quickly.

Sounds like she's at the point where she's weighing her options; on the fence; i.e., do you have enough to offer her. meh

What is this "dream?" Her little PT job down at the gym where her adultery partner works?

You do understand that this "dream" has led to the near ruination of your family and can't continue the way it has?

She wants very much to blame her affair on you, did you get that? She was trying to make you mad and when you didn't comply you didn't give her the ammunition for her gun.

Now I have a serious question. Did your pastoral job really cause problems in your marriage? Did she object to it before the affair? I ask this because this is not a normal job, but a job that serves God and your marriage is clearly under assault. Your W is serving a different master today.

Her dream is simply to have a purpose outside of me ... she's been pushed and prodded to the the pastor's wife and it's simply not her ... never has been. The "dream" doesn't sound like much, but to her it's freedom to be someone independent of the expectations that come from being married to a pastor.


i totally see that she want's to lay all of the blame on me ... i spent some time shouting at the walls today about that ... she did this ... I will accept my responsibility in creating the environment, but she did this ...

In response to your serious question ... I think she did object to the job all along, in fact, the first time I proposed she said no ... because she didn't want to be a pastor's wife. The church job has been a factor in that it places unfair expectations on her, which I did not protect her from.

I've no doubt that while our problems and the affair are very real and natural - that there is a supernatural element to it where there are dark forces opposed to the work God is doing through the church ... wreck the marriage, wreck the church.
(I know some of you don't think that way ... that's cool, don't check out on me just because our religious beliefs might differ, I still need your help on the natural side)

btw - i've made no mention of dark forces or a spiritual dimension to ww ... I'm not some spooky demon behind every tree kind of person

See, this is something that would be addressed in MB and is a key issue. One of the MB concepts is the policy of joint agreement. That means that a couple does nothing without the enthusiastic agreement of the other. It means that you would not have taken the pastoral job without her enthusiastic agreement. It means she would not have taken her PT job without yours.

Her acquiesce to your career choice led to huge resentment and a dangerous attitude of entitlement: "see what I have sacrificed! I DESERVE my own life!" That is how many affairs start and this is how the thinking goes.

So, in a future marriage, decisions like this will be made JOINTLY, not unilaterally, if you use MB concepts.

Independent behavior in a marriage is usually a disaster, and because she feels you practiced it, she believes she is entitled too.


Right. There is nothing you have done that even comes close. What she did is on the level of rape or death of a child. She did a horrible thing to you and those kids.


We see whats going down here. After you are here for awhile it becomes even more clear when waywards all use the same script. It is shocking. It is good you are aware of it.

I totally get the policy of joint agreement, and wish that someone told us about it 12 years ago. It's that policy that I expect will lead to a career change for me. I think that if we were in recovery, and sat down to evaluate where to go from here, that continuing in my current career would not fit the POJA.

I want to live by that Policy, I see the beauty and the freedom of it.

OMG - have you been listening in on our conversations?!

No problem understanding the equation.

The order of authority we have been taught: God is first, our family second and the church comes third.

So what kind of job are you applying for and is WW on board?

imagine, we haven't even talked about it ... but she understands the implications the same way I do ... together, church is not likely, apart, still not likely.

haven't talked about what kind of job, I have no trade and certainly don't want to take a sales job that requires travel if we are in recovery ... ironically though, a sales job is what I'd be best suited for.

Regretfully I do not have morning prayers with my wife. I know I must jack up...

Do you have any home devotions with your missus?

WW had her first counseling session today ... not sure that it helped any ... the counselor is very much for saving our marriage ... so WW felt a bit ganged up on.

I sat and listened for almost an hour and a half about how this was all my fault. She's been reading a book that I bought recently to help me become more emotionally available ... the book is called "what women wish men knew" ... she read it and said see ... you don't get it, you've been missing it for 12 years ... but the OM, he gets it intuitively, he doesn't have to work at it. (props to myself for not LB all over the place - I endured it all patiently, told her I bought the book with the intention of growing and learning how to love her better.

She's taken to psycho-analyzing me now ... do i know who I am? do i know what i like? what i like to do? what i want to do in the future? what would be my dream job? - says she needs to be with someone who's got all that figured out and who's answers are compatible with hers. - The whole two hour conversation sounded like her trying to convince herself that I'm not the right guy for her.

But then, there were glimmers of hope. She asked if I would really leave my job ... I've told her 20 times that I would ... but I think she was really listening this time. I explained the policy of joint agreement and I think she sort of got what I was getting at. Her response was that we've wasted 12 years then

a little later (after the kid interruption) She asked what it would look like for us to start over ... i explained complete NC as the starting point ... then POJA and counseling to work through forgiveness and all the pain ... basically a total restart to the marriage, learning each other's EN and working to meet them, following Harley's rules. She heard me ... but I can tell that she thinks the road back might be a little too long.

on the other hand ... I'm pretty sure that she didn't really hear me ... especially about the NC part ... she started talking a while later about one of her clients who was pissed that she took a week off, so she was on the phone scheduling her sessions at the gym for next week.

frustrating.

realizing that if WW decides to return to our marriage that we're likely going to need a relocation included in our recovery and restart program. The gym she works at is literally 2 minutes away from our house, we drive by it everytime we enter our neighborhood ... I'm sure even seeing it will trigger both of us ... me the resentment, and her the addiction.

I know they were hitting it at a local hotel, went to hockey games together, played golf at a bunch of local courses, practiced golf together at the indoor range ... God knows what else is local that is now tainted.

To avoid triggers we're likely going to have to relocate. I haven't broached that one with her yet, I think I'll wait until she's committed to return. I don't want to add any more length to the road back at this point.

any thoughts?

Cool! you just spent 2 hours in a room with a falling down drunk telling you what a SOB you are so she won't have to look at herself. You feel worse, and she is even more protective of her drug of choice.

Now, do you see why Dr. Harley NEVER counsels couples together? Do you know what AA tells people who show up drunk? Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Or we escort them to the door.

I hope you didn't pay for this exercise in .......I was going to say futility, but that would be giving it too much credit. This session caused DAMAGE, it was not futile. Listening to this abuse will get you nowhere except worn down much FASTER at a time when you most need your strength.

Can I suggest that you save the counseling for a time when the falling down drunk is SOBER and it will make a positive difference instead of a NEGATIVE difference?

Dr. Harley addressed this one time on the radio with a brilliant suggestion. He told a BS in this same situation to MOVE to another town with his kids. He knew that the WS would have to move to the other town if the marriage was going to make it anyway. So if they reconciled, the WS would have to follow the BS and since it was in another town, they would at least HAVE A CHANCE.

See, you are very right. You will have a very hard time recovering in that town with the gym so close.

I guess i wasn't clear ... ww had her first solo counseling session, I wasn't there. It was after the session that ww decided to analyze me.

Counseling=waste of time rite now. I am not just SAYING it I DID it!! Luckily for me my insurance pays 100%. A few times I left feeling totally run down. The C said once.....it appears she doesn't love you anymore....DUH!!!

I'm excited about the possibility of starting again fresh in a new location without all the emo triggers around every corner.

sucks that we moved here specifically so that the kids could be near both sets of grandparents.

it's amazing that one person's selfishness can cast such a wide net of hurt.

we're not in couples counseling - ww went to see a counselor to help her sort through how she got here, and what she really wants.

Whew! I thought you actually PAID to listen to that fogbabble! Thanks for clarifying.

Did you see my post about moving? What are your thoughts on that? I thought it was a BRILLIANT suggestion from Dr. Harley when I heard it.

I think the move is inevitable ... I'm likely to be looking for a job anyway, why not look in another city right?

we're not separated, so any move would have to be by mutual consent once she agrees to NC and we're in recovery. I don't think I can legally just snatch the kids and move - tell her to come along.

I know what she really wants and I will tell you for free: her affair. The IC will help her attain what she wants based on her CURRENT FEELINGS. At the expense of your marriage.

Please pay the receptionist on the way out.

You posted while I was typing.

She spent IC focusing on YOU then.....came home and told you YOUR problems....based on her "foggy" perception!! Last I checked....I go to counseling for ME.

My WW is/was going to IC. She goes to a place with "Christian" on the sign....you think my WW or yours is being honest with the C????

What if her affair doesnt end because you live right by the gym? How do you plan on getting your family away if you don't have her CONSENT to move? And why can't you take your kids?

interesting take ... between you and Carp I'm not hip to the IC anymore ... I'm paying for it, so perhaps it ought to stop before I pay for someone with a degree to justify her exit.

GWN - she wants to come back to you and she's spewing all the psychobabble because she knows she messed up big time. She would not be able to live with herself if she didn't demonise you.

She's on her joyrney home to you.

Keep up plan A - meet what needs you can and try not to love bust. The fog will clear soon enough. - PROVIDED she goes NC with OM.

I'm not sure I'm following you ... supposing her affair comes to an end and she agrees to NC. we'd move and start again.
I don't see how I can just up and move before that unless we legally separate and work out the custody. Am I missing an option somewhere here?

thanks for the vote of confidence BK.

What usually happens with ICs is they help the wayward achieve PERSONAL goals based on current FEELINGS. For example, your W feels her future is with the OM. What I would expect from the IC is that she will help her bring her feelings to fruition. The IC does not understand that she is dealing with someone who is drunk on the high of an affair and that there is no future in the affair.

She will help your W feel less guilty about her hopes and desires by lowering her standards to accommodate her bad behavior. A good IC will teach her to compartmentalize her conscience.

Everything your wife told you today about the OM and you? The IC will VALIDATE those feelings.

about the IC ... I get it. WW didn't dig it anyway, so I'll have no problem ending that issue - I think she went "for me" so that I'd think she was putting effort into sorting this out all while carrying on the A.

not that there is much context to this ... but APFlorida will appreciate knowing that the french really do produce the best Pinot Noir ... appropriate for days like these.

You have to move with her or without her, right? Do any of your options involve staying there? I don't see how.

Either way, her affair is NOT coming to an end and she does not agree to NC. I suspect it will not until you move and she has to make a choice to follow you. Or lets say she does quit and end her affair - she will be in a perpetual state of withdrawal living that close to the gym. If you start planning it for now, you might be out of there in 3-6 months.

I'm with you on that ... I'll be moving either way, but I'm hoping that she's coming with me sooner rather than later. I'm banking on big kahuna being right. She commits to NC in the next few weeks. We put the house to market, head off to Costa Rica to ride out the initial withdrawal, come back to a new life in a new city ... let the real estate sort itself out whenever.

you know what ... I'm not so sure about the above ... If this ends in D. I won't move. Triggers be damned, I would move to restart with her - but if I had my druthers I'd stay put. The move is part of recovery, contingent on her coming back ... she's gone, I'll likely stay put, but I'm actually hoping for the former

thankfully, I could move at a moments notice. not that I'm loaded, I just have options that I could exercise need be.
We could be gone by the end of the month if she chooses to end the A.

I hope you're right and I hope the affair can end very soon despite the fact that the OM is right there. BigK loaded his family in a moving van and moved within TWO WEEKS to another town. The OM was very close just like your situation.

I suggest you and MIL work on getting her to agree to a 2 week holiday with you. MIL can mind the kids and you can go away for 2 weeks and ride through some withdrawal.

My view is that she is lost right now and she's searching for guarantees that you can change and that her life will be better.

2 weeks NC with OM and away with you plan a'ing your butt off will do wonders for her resolve about NC.

NC is KING - everything depends on it. If she will go NC she will come around very swiftly.

You MUST put as much pressure on OM as you can. Make the affair no fun for him anymore and too much trouble. Get a PI to track him down and then make his life a living hell.

Putting more pressure on Om would require that i get MIL and BroIL involved to speak with him (if you know what I'm saying) and that would not go over well with WW who is already declaring me a lunatic for the first round of exposure.

suppose that I don't really need to be involved though ... they know his name already, and where he works, they could take the heat. I'm beginning to see a plan emerging. (evil laugh)

This is all out WAR with OM and the Devil himself for the soul of your wife GWN. You have to get agressive as all hell and creative here.

How can I offer guarantees ... I'm working on it, but I've got a lot of ground to cover ... all my attempts at emotion and affection are cast off as contrivances at this point.

suggestions?

There's the spirit.

A good friend of mine started ringing OM the day my wife left me and OM phoned my wife complaining about it. Now his complaints pissed her off for sure but so what! In the cold light of day, the pansy needed a woman to do his bidding!

I say do this to him.

You HAVE to get OM out of the picture. NOW!!!

She is phoning you and seeking reassurance at this point. You need to keep reassuring her that you know your marriage was not perfect and what you are going to do to rectify your "faults" You are doing well with this!

You got it!! Let them confront the sniveling little weasel. MrsW's mama called up the OM and put the fear of God into him. He dumped her THAT DAY. Now, that might not happen so suddenly here, but i assure you it will put huge pressure on the affair.

Your MIL would be doing you a GREAT FAVOR if she would call the OM and call his PARENTS. That way the wrath can be directed at MIL and SIL and you can console your poor beleagured wife.

Your MIL needs to tell weaselboy that there is no future for his affair; that he will NEVER darken her doorstep and will be eternally hated by your boys.

Face to face would be preferable, but tell her to leave her pistol in the car.

The OM is a coward who won't like all that trouble.

It is common in IC that patients perceive things differently than what the IC means and often they only hear what they want to hear.

After I ended my A my IC worked to get me through withdrawal and pushed toward confessing to my DH who had no clue about the A.

In the beginning, I totally misunderstood a lot of what she said to me, but as time went on and my head cleared it made so much more sense.

I suspect your WW is only hearing what she wants to and isn't ready for IC counseling since she is way too deep in the fog.

Advice from someone who was stuck in perpetual withdrawal due to remaining in an area with way too many reminders, continuing to work with and live near my FOM, if you can move, do it and do it as quickly as you can.

LC

thanks all ... I'm calling it a night.

You're so lucky to have your MIL on your side!
Its only a matter of time before this A is blown clean apart

hey everyone ... sorry for the late post, not like I'm waking you up or anything. just needed to tell someone that I miss my wife.

Stay strong mate!

got out the photo albums last night ... that was really rough, heartbreaking. She hasn't always been unfulfilled and empty as her words seem to indicate. It was heartbreaking to remember how great things were and to know that this scar will remain, but it was good to help me see through the fog and remember just how deeply I love her.

do a lot of women go through this entitlement phase post-kids?
I've sacrificed so much, now it's time for me?

I realized that this all started when both of our kids were finally in school full-time, freeing up her days. This was supposed to be the beginning of the best years of our life.

We have had the same discussion over the last couple years. We started our family young so we never got to be "Mr&Mrs Carp" before we were the "Carp family".

Now that our kids are older and we have more $$ we had always talked about building "Us"

You are not alone.

GWN,
You say your wife has asked you repeatedly if you're serious about changing careers.

I have an idea that I think is great. Get MIL to mind the kids for a couple of weeks, as was suggested earlier. Plan A your butt off during that time. Tell her you've decided to go ahead and change jobs to prove to her that you're serious and that her happiness is of the utmost importance to you.

Come home and initiate a job search, being very clear that you're doing this out of love FOR HER.

Land a job.... in another town.

thanks TH ... I'm already engaged in that one ... she knows that I've already started looking, I think she's shocked ... "what? he's taking my needs into consideration? this can't be for real"

I've got the three week Costa Rica trip loaded in the gun, ready to fire as soon as she goes NC

Does WW know there's a three week Costa Rica trip waiting in the wings for her as soon as she goes NC? Just curious.

nope. I want her heart, don't want to muddy with waters with "coersion" - besides, it will suck if she takes the trip with me without having decided on NC, she'll just be torn the whole time and not much fun to be with. If she decides to break, I hope that she can begin the journey back to me even in the throws of withdrawal ... maybe I'm wrong, it's not like I've done this before.

Your reasoning sounds very good to me. I was wondering if you were using it as an enticement. If you were, it would be easy for her to go on the trip and pretend she's committed to NC -- but if she weren't committed I don't think she'd go on the trip anyway.

Hard to say, though, she might use the trip to "help her make up her mind" and then take her pining and withdrawal as a sign that the M is not for her. Sigh. Waywards have a "logic" all their own.

I do like very much the idea of announcing the trip *after* she agrees to NC. It will give you guys a place to relax and simply be with one another. Let the ol' emotional reserves build back up again.

For me, the answer to these questions are yes. I got to the point I was so tired of being under appreciated for everything I did.

I supported our family so my DH could have a career change and go to medical school 7 years and 2 kids into our marriage (3rd DD was born while he was in school). He always cut down my "measly" job totally forgetting it kept a roof over our head, food on the table and provided health insurance benefits.

Of course, we had no communication skills to work through anything. My big mistake was I did not express to him how I felt about everything and I built a lot of resentment toward him expecting him to just clue in on the fact there was something wrong.

LC

thanks for sharing that with me ... I'm beginning to understand ww needs ... wish I'd seen this coming, so much pain could have been avoided.

Once my boys were old enough to be left at the ski resort with lessons and group skiing, I started taking care of myself. I put my energies into getting physically fit by cross country skiing and running.

I was not aware of marriage builders at that time. My H and I were completing our exercise activities pretty separately. Partly because of the need to still be around for the boys. I made a point of telling him about my skiing conversations. They were pretty limited as I went by myself and saw few people out on the trail. I had a couple conversations with men and would always be aware of mentioning my H in conversations and conversations were brief.

I did meet one guy several times one year. We did not plan to meet, we just showed up at some pubicly announced ski events and I was new to the community and wanted to find out more about the best places to ski. He was probably 15 years my junior and we gabbed a little as we were both faster skiiers than others on the treks. But again, I always made a point of keeping it general and mentioned my husband, and told my husband about the conversations. Looking back, I know we should have recreated together more as the opportunities came up. We do it that way now.

I guess I am just trying to say that it is not the case that a mom has to go through a stage of entitlement that entitles her to an affair. Most marriages go through low times. These low times are not a reasonable or rational excuse to have an affair.

I don't think its alot of women, but it seems to be the type who tries to take everything in stride, a fast ticket to marital hell. Men or women that "sacrifice" alot without protecting their boundaries tend to develop the worst boundaries. And then they ALWAYS blame the spouse when it was their own failure to protect their boundaries.

Just remember, sacrifice is bad, sacrifice is bad, sacrifice is bad. I was so shocked to learn that from Dr Harley because it almost seems unChristian, but it is SO TRUE. Sacrifice leads to RESENTMENT, which leads to a voracious TAKER that comes out roaring with resentment and entitlement. Check this out The Giver and the Taker

sacrifice is bad ... leads to resentment ... leads to a sense of entitlement ... the taker erupts.

thanks for that ... I'm pretty linear, that helps me understand.

ITA. After my A it was very hard for me to really get why it wasn't my DH's fault and that it really was an issue with my boundaries AND my choices. It took my other board buddies forever to help me understand this one.

I never expected to have and A and thought "my ways" were safe. I learned the hard way they were not and all it took was a lethal combo with FOM and "wham" there I was making lots of bad choices and blaming my DH.

LC

I have a tendency to take on too much and become resentful. When the kids were babies/toddlers I was working full time, cooking dinner, giving baths, doing after-dinner cleanup, and packing the diaper bags for daycare the next day. exH complained that "the kids are more important to you than I am" because I spent so much time doing those tasks. Yet when I asked for help he just made himself scarce. Resentment? Entitlement? Yeah, a little bit!!

I still have to watch the tendency to do it all myself. I'll do all the house cleaning and cooking w/o asking for help and then end up exhausted because I don't want to be a burden or a nag. A clean house is a lot more important to me than to the kids or H. So I stress about the house long before they do... At the same time, I feel that it's not fair or right for me to ask them all to do chores to keep the house to a standard that's only important to me. I've had to work hard on relaxing my standards and asking for help when I need it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if your W has these tendencies, don't look for the problems to magically go away just because the kids are now in school or able to grab their own breakfast on a Saturday morning. She may be like me and have to learn to ask for help, and you'll need to work to really hear those requests and respond to them so she doesn't feel like she's being forced to "do it all".

Responding doesn't necessarily mean you jump up and vacuum. It could mean you hire a house keeper. It could mean you tell her "The dust bunnies will be there tomorrow, and they don't bother me at all anyway - I'd much rather go on a walk with you."

just got off the phone with ww ... she called to tell me that she's rescheduled all her clients for the evening so that she will avoid contact with OM.

I didn't buy it - and she was angry and threw threats around.

I told her (for what seems like the 1000th time) that I love her, and I want to recover our marriage, but that she needs to commit to total NC with OM if we are ever to have a chance. I told her that even if she just sees him in passing that her feelings for him will jump up all over again and we'll be back at square one. I also told her that even going to the gym, and never seeing him will still trigger her emotions for him since that's the environment where the whole thing blossomed. It was all very rational, and I know it to be very true.

She ranted about me trying to take from her the only thing she cares about, said "I'm not going to quit my job, so we might as well just separate" ... I didn't bite at that one either.

I told her clearly and calmly that I was not asking her to quit her job, but I was asking her to think creatively with me about ways she could continue training her clients without training them at the gym so that she could commit to never, ever, seeing OM again. I did not offer a solution, just asked her to be willing to think creatively with me ... she didn't bite. So the conversation ended at an impasse, but she certainly heard clearly that I don't consider her changing her schedule as a commitment to NC.

I didn't mention how freaking paranoid it would make me to have her go to the same gym every day, hoping that she doesn't bump into OM and get the whole thing started again. I won't live that way, the constant fear would kill me. Here, I'm thinking complete relocation of our family, and she's thinking of changing her schedule. We are not on the same page, and she clearly doesn't understand herself, the A, how this happened, how to avoid it, and the depth and breadth of the consequences of her current actions.

did I do the right thing? should it have played differently?

I am considering writing her a letter to reiterate my position, certainly I'd write it from a POJA standpoint, asking her to respect my feelings, not in the form of an ultimatum or demand.

any thoughts?

Yeah - stop trying to reason with a WW!

Did you ever try having a reasoned discussion with a drunk? Or a drug addict in the throes of their addiction? How did it work out for you?

"Rational" arguments typically do NOT work with a WW!!

ok. i hear you. what should I do in place of attempting to reason?

Don't argue whether she is going to miss OM or not. A WW will always lie. Operate on the basis "trust but verify"

Please read through the articles on his site dealing with sensitive handling of anybody.

Sorry I cant access the spot for you. I gotta jack up my PC.

Yes, you did good, but you can't expect her to respond to reason. you are on the RIGHT TRACK. You have to be a broken record and say something like:

"I can't continue to live in an environment where you are still in contact with the OM. Our marriage can only recover if contact ends. Dr. Harley, the author of Surviving an Affair, who specializes in marital recovery after an affair, recommends MOVING to another city in order to avoid your affair partner."

Start talking about MOVING to another city, gwn. Tell her that is what it will take to recover your marriage.

Also, you should understand that her moving her schedule to the night is nothing more than WINDOW DRESSING to trick you into allowing her to keep up her affair. She is not done at all.

If you don't believe me, ask her to send him a no contact letter:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Dr. Harley: My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

BETTER YET, just hand her this article and tell her you know the only way to recover your marriage is to move:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

From a BTDT POV, just by walking in the door of the building it will trigger good memories and feed her addiction. She doesn't necessarily have to see the OM to get a fix.

LC

GWN... you will be fine. I know... I went through it in a similar fashion, and thought that each breath might be my last. I felt so betrayed and so completely disbelieving, that I continually wanted to find anything in which to believe.

I found 2...

I have two children, who at the time were 9 and 5. I knew that I wanted to minimize anything concerning their pain, so I began running everything through a 'boys' filter. This helped calm my actions, but did little for my mind.

I also stayed with God. My favorite prayer is the one in which I pray not at all. God knows everything I need and desire. He knows what is good and bad, and he certainly has a better grip on my 'then wife' than I do. So my favorite prayer was one in which I worked to completely clear my mind. And I mean CLEAR IT... I did everything I could during the prayer to be at peace and NOT THINK or PRAY about anything. Trusting that my questions, desires, hopes, fears, and goals were better understood by God than by me. And that by me asking for something, I was in effect, lessening what HE knew he could do. I completely tried to open myself up to simple trust. I think of it as my 'blank' prayer, and it remains my favorite and probably most compelling prayer still. I use it often.

My final thought, at least one which gave me succor at the point in which you are suffering, was a mental picture I (God) formed for me. I felt as though my heart had been pounded into submission. That is was so very beaten and bruised that it would barely function. I pictured my heart, in reality, held in two hands. My view of this image is that my heart is alone, and being held in two hands... kind of like the praying hands sculpture you see every once in a while. I pictured those hands gently holding my heart, with all the dents, scratches, and dings that the hammers of my situation had caused. I pictured the thumbs of those hands, gently working those dents out. Smoothing the dings, and buffing the scratches. It was a labor of love, for the owner of those hands. One of caring, honor, and understanding.

When I pictured this, I felt almost as if it were a bronze sculpture, but definitely of ME. I felt that those hands belonged to Jesus, and that while he wasn't going to just snap his fingers and everything would be fine, that he was there for me, and that if I gave him time and access to my heart, that he had the power to fix every last one of those dents.

My ex did not come out of the fog. That is OK... but I absolutely KNOW that I am a better man. That I am going to be OK. And that I have my boys, now 12 and 15, who are growing into fine young men in their own right. And I know that he is right there... and when my heart gets beat up by something, if I give it to him... he will work those dents out... in his own, understanding, love filled time.

I wouldn't try to educate her. She's wayward, and to her education feels like you're controlling her, manipulating her, and judging her. She's not open to education or rational logic. For that reason, too, I'd sit tight on the info Melody Lane suggested that you print out and give to her. Once she says she's on board with recovering the M and commits to NC, she will be more open to that information. Right now, though, I think she'll bristle and be resistant. HER feelings are REAL. HER feelings can't be predicted, known, or understood by some geeky marriage therapist who has no idea of HER and what SHE is going through.

For that reason, I think I'd change my message a little bit. Maybe something like:

I love you, and I want to recover our marriage, but I need you to commit to total NC with OM if we are ever to have a chance. I am not willing to be in a marriage that has a third party in it. That is unacceptable to me.

that's what I've been saying all along ... this mornings phone call was my first attempt at applying any rational logic, won't try that again for a while ... I am, as you suggested, going back to the basics.

Thanks so much for helping hammering this message home, LC. It is so good for BS' to see this from your perspective.

I hope it helps. UGH, I hate to even think about the mental anguish all 4 of us had to endure when FOM and I continued to work together all that time. Hindsight, it could have been so much less if either Docp or FOM's DW had stumbled across MB's and pressed the issue of total NC. Years wasted on this mess when we all could have been rebuilding.

LC

I'm going to disagree with some of the advice regarding the "3 weeks in Costa Rica" I suggest you don't leave it in the can for when she commits to NC. I suggest you use that nuke now.

Many people get hung up on the reasons why a wayward returns etc - but in the long run it doesn't matter a bit.

3 weeks AWAY from OM will do her a world of good and she will start to withdraw from him.

She isn't gong to come back because she choses you in all probability - it will be because of the pressure exerted by her MIL and by the glimmer of hope your WW has that you might change. Is pressure being applied to OM as suggested?

ok friends, I need talking off the ledge tonite. sorry for the melodrama but the rage has finally set in.

WW threw me a bone today, changing her schedule to work opposing schedules to the OM. Bull&*^(

She feels like she's doing the right thing but ML called it - it's window dressing.

I realize that arguing with a drunk is stupid, but I introduced the concept of POJA today ... if we are trying to recover as a married couple (huge assumption) then we ought to work together to make mutually beneficial decisions. I'm not comfortable with where she has set the boundary to ensure NC.

Sure enough, she snapped - I'm my own woman, you don't own me, you can't control me, you won't manipulate me, you can't give me an ultimatum ... I won't quit my job, if you can't deal with that then it's you who is not willing to work on our marriage. What BS!

I explained that I'm not asking her to quit, I just want to operate with POJA and brainstorm some solutions where we both get what we want ... where we both hear, understand and respect each others wishes and hearts. Nothing doing.

She thinks she's made a big move to change her schedule, but it's a big farce. I asked her straight up if she's still in contact with OM, she said of course, she's trying to decide between the two of us.

Then she said we're starting from zero, (forget about 12 years and 2 kids) and that we need to be friends, that that's the start of the process for her, she needs me to be her friend (not her husband) - I respond that I can't be her friend, (interpret - love her the way she needs to be loved, meet her EN) while she is still seeing OM and engaged in the A ... she says that's my problem not hers. Bull%^* that's her problem and I'm coming to the end of my patience.

I get the principles in Plan A but how can I treat my WW like a friend when she is perpetrating the most hurtful, deceitful, painful betrayal that a friend can ever lay on another friend.

"hey - while i peel the skin off your body, please tell me how much you love me, how attracted you are to me, how proud you are of who I'm becoming. Hey - while I destroy our kids chances at succeeding in school, career and love, please tell me how great a mom I am. Hey - while i flaunt my relationship with OM and deny you any affection at all, please tell me how much you miss me and enjoy being with me"

ok. enough said. I'm coming to the end. Perhaps tomorrow will be better, but I'm pissed today and need some help climbing off the ledge.

just to add icing to the cake ... she left 45 minutes ago in the snow ... called to see if she'd arrived at MIL's safely ... MIL told me no, that WW had called to say she was going to see OM to break it off tonite ... again I say Bull%&*(

thank God for vodka.

after the convo today, I'm pretty sure she won't bite on three weeks away from her job ... the Costa trip might be a pipe dream
F.

What are you doing about OM?

i've run out of legal options ... beating the snot out of him might hurt my custody chances.

Well I wasn't suggesting violence, just following through with your MIL and BIL making your wife a big negative in his existence. Making your wife too much trouble for him to pursue when there are so many easier less hassle options available.

mil is a sell out ... she's been miserable in marriage for decades ... she wants her daughter to be happy, won't confront. just prays ... not that prayer is ineffective, but she won't go there with OM.

still waiting on BIL's response.

What about OM's parents? Get a PI to find them. You have to deal agressively with this and bring pressure on the affair.

What about at work? Do they condone this? Is OM in a position of power over WW?

Don't be thinking you need to play fair. This is a time for all out agression against the affair.

Ok, you have the right idea about POJA but are applying it to a non-negotiable issue. You can't POJA something that will spell doom for your marriage. POJA is not to be used with terrorists. You can't negotiate with a terrorist.


Be a broken record, gwn. Tell her this will never work as long as she continues to work with the OM. Dr. Harley is adamant that in order to recover, we will have to move to another STATE.

Just be a broken record. She won't get it at first, but you must continue and never back off from this point.

Start looking for a job in another town and start making plans to pack up and move there. Let her know that you are looking into this because this is the only way your marriage can recover.

And you are right, you don't want to be "friends" with a woman who lies and cheats on you. "I won't have someone for a friend who lies and cheats to me and causes me this much pain." You are willing to be a HUSBAND to your WIFE once she ends her affair <----tell her this.

And do a search and expose the OM's parents. Call them up and ask them to use their influence to get their son to leave your wife alone.

Has she spoken to her daughter about her affair?

i don't really know ... she's not exactly straight up with me ... she feels for me, but i get the sense that she's playing both sides- feeling sorry for me but wanting "happiness" for her daughter.

huh? Don't you want the same thing for her daughter? What am I missing here? If you both want the same thing how can there be "both sides?"

she's a bit caught in the fog herself ... former ww ... probably wishes she stayed in A.

OMG.. I had hoped she would be on her DD's side.

me too ... mil remained in an unhappy marriage and never dealt with the crap ... doesn't want her DD to experience the same drudgery.

gwn, what about her father? Is he in the picture? What part is he playing here?

GWN - Get a PI and get some dirt on the sleazeball. Find his parents and friends and turn up the heat.

This is a time for WAR not sitting on your hands doing nothing.

I think that it would be a good idea to engage your wife a lot more often. Keep her out of the way of OM. Look very nice when you do this!

Of course, no marriage talk!

thanks imagine ... we do always end up talking about our relationship, it's the elephant in the living room.

I think that recreational companionship is one of her significant EN that I've failed to meet in the last couple years. I asked her out on a date ... skiing on Sunday, she agreed, smiled and said "why?" - i said i was trying to be a friend - I think that hit the sweet spot a bit, so I'll keep trying to engage her in that way.

so, I've got a new dilemma today ... (sorry in advance for the long post)

I am still with you BigK and others who are calling for all out war on the OM ... I'm not ignoring your advice.

but, let me bring you up to speed. Had dinner as a family last night, after a not so happy relationship talk that left me angry on the inside, but trying to smile on the outside. After dinner, she headed off ... didn't say where she was going, I didn't ask.

If you read my post last night, you know that I was in rough shape - if you haven't read it, and you want the context, you can skip back a page or two and give it a read.

Anyway ... I called MIL to see if WW arrived home safe ... MIL responded no, but that WW had called her to tell her that she was going to see OM to break it off.

WW called at about 11 and told me she had ended things with OM. She (apparently) asked him not to contact her, to move out of their mutual office, and to respect her new work hours so that their paths don't cross (don't worry, I'm not fooled by any of this - I know some of you are already polishing the 2x4). WW asked if we could meet for coffee this morning, I agreed, which brings us to today.

So we met for coffee ... she repeated the same story ... OM will respect her wished, OM will work mornings 'til 3:30, WW will work 4-10 - they'll never see each other, and we'll start from scratch "giving our marriage a second chance because it's the right thing to do". So, I've got a million questions, which I refrain from asking because I'm smart enough (thanks to y'all) to know that this all means nothing. The A is not over, the boundaries to ensure NC are not in place, triggers are not being avoided, and she is totally grieving, perhaps regretting, breaking up with the OM that she is "still in love with".

side note - I did manage to give her 4 things ... Harley's basic concepts, POJA, the EN questionnaire that she agreed to complete for me, and Harley's steps to recovery after the affair (all the stuff about leaving the state, total NC, withdrawal, total honesty etc ...)

so, to end the morning, as we parted, she was totally broken down in tears, but they were not tears of remorse (she's still waiving the "I am a free woman entitlement flag") they were tears of sadness/regret at the loss of the OM. She has no accountability, no proper boundaries - I would bet big on her breaking NC before the end of the day today, likely already has and it's only been 2-3 hours since we parted.

It angers me that every time she tries to end it, but doesn't do it right, that her resolve weakens, she becomes easier prey, she loses her will, and will eventually just say, I can't be apart from him, I've tried but I can't so I'm going to follow my heart.

At that point ... I can do nothing but continue A or B knowing that she's fully given over to OM. Right now, it feels like there is a tension, she's not sure who to choose - that gives me hope. If her weakened resolve from repeated attempts to end it leads her to just give up on us and run to him completely, I will be faced with a serious decision.

I'm not sure that there is a question anywhere in there - nor do I feel any better having vented. I know the A is not done, this recent maneuvering is all smoke an mirrors. I guess I'm still in plan A, committed to the process. Looking for more stick to swing, and working on the carrot.

on the carrot end - I think I should just drop all relationship talk unless she initiates it ... is that the right thing to do?

You very much should be talking about your marriage. The titantic is sinking as we speak. What was your reaction to the above deal she offered?

"what it will take for our marriage to recover is for all contact with the OM to end, even if that means moving to another state."

broken record, broken record, broken record, broken record.

gwn, you don't have a marriage any other way. I think you are afraid of losing her if you press this point, but let me assure you that you will lose her if you DON'T.

I would be on the phone to the OM's parents and anyone else who can help apply pressure to this affair.

Your wife is trying to negotiate a way to keep you and the OM on the farm. She slept with the OM AGAIN last night.

I don't think you understand that you are holding the winning hand here. She knows there is no future in this affair or SHE WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT. What she wants is to keep you BOTH.

And when she goes off to have sex with the OM, i would be talking to her about that. "It is very hurtful to me and the boys when you run off and have sex with the OM. This is teaching our boys that wrong is right."

She needs to hear this EVERY TIME. Don't sit there and say nothing, gwn.

I didn't react to her deal. It's the same deal as yesterday and the day before, I've consistently repeated that she must establish NC and that I will not share her with another man. She is acutely aware that I believe that she needs to leave the gym entirely. period. I've offered creative solutions, which she has refused. I did not try to negotiate with her today - she knows where I stand, and I know this "deal" is either a lie, or will fail quickly.

The "deal" makes it impossible for her to spend any quality time with our kids, and the "deal" is in no way a commitment to NC.

I continue to stand firm on being willing to work on our marriage once she's established NC. She is either delusional enough that she thinks she has in fact established NC, or she thinks that I'm dumb enough to fall for this "deal" - I know that this is not NC and that will reveal itself very quickly. So, I know that the ship is sinking and I feel a bit powerless to stop it.

the only "deal" that gives us a chance is the deal that involves complete NC with the OM or the gym.

we're at an impasse, she won't budge, nor will I. She thinks that this compromise is a "good deal" for me. I think it's BS, but I can't negotiate (she's in the fog) or manipulate/control it (that's the biggest LB in her eyes) ... that's not the Plan A way - is it?

Your silence signals AGREEMENT.

Really? Am I that naive?

There is nothing to reveal. Her affair is right out in the open. She is keeping you BOTH.

again - am I that naive? when she "goes to break it off with him" she's really going to sleep with him? - REALLY?!

I think it's time for a little testosterone and setting your foot down.

Time to stop walking on egg shells.

You should have expressed your displeasure at her going to see OM. There needs to be NC.

And there needs to be an ulitmatum, IMHO, that the contact ends and she quits her job or she can pack her stuff up and leave. And if she starts whining and crying about OM you tell her to not disrespect you by crying over another man who was doing his wife.

I think the egg shell walking has to stop. I think it's time for real sticks to come out in your Plan A and that any and all contact with OM will be treated as a slap in the face to you regardless of the reason she has the contact.

And any claim of her plans about never seeing OM should be met with a look of indifference as if you don't believe one word of what you're hearing and that you're not buying one word of her babble.

Set your foot down. The disrespect needs to stop immediately.

And yes, you're being naive about her sleeping with OM. Part of her closure likely included a goodbye ***edit***. She'll try to have several other meetings with him in the interest of getting "closure".

yep! This is the SECOND TIME she has met up to have sex with the OM and "ended it." Cute!

I guess I don't understand how to play the winning hand.
Please keep coaching me.

Are you SERIOUS?? If someone is serious about "ending" something, they END it by closing the door, NOT by resuming contact. Nor does it take HOURS to "end it." Nor does it take 2-3 sessions to "end it."

your wife is having sex with the OM. This is her cover story: "I am going to end it." She has played this card TWICE.

I am not guessing, I am TELLING YOU THIS IS THE CASE.

She is not going to end the affair. She has no intention of ending the affair because SHE CAN HAVE YOU BOTH. She has set this up so she can have BOTH.

I AM coaching you!!

I'm tracking with you baron ... but the ultimatum seems contradictory to Plan A ... help me out here. I'm trying to fidn the balance between doormat and raging jealous disrespected husband.

ok. so she's lied to MIL and I twice in the past week to see the OM and she volunteered that she went to a party with him and "nothing happened".

You're saying (and I really don't doubt you, but wish you were wrong) that she's hooked up with him for sex 3 times this past week.

How am I supposed to confront that. What should I be doing that I'm not.

Is Baron right, do I generate an ultimatum and put my foot down.

I need to regain some control here. Feel like I'm losing.

gwn, a DEMAND will not work, that is why I have been giving you talking points. Those lines assure her that her setup is not going to work and you won't settle for that. She needs to know you can't settle for that. Over and over and over again.

You can't be silent about this or she will believe this arrangement is acceptable to you.

Ok. So i repeat the broken record - using your talking points, she ignores me and continues to do what she's doing ... following through with her rescheduling plans ... I greet every contact that she has with OM with words of disapproval and how much it hurts me and the boys, call her on her lies, allow my distrust and suspicion to be known. Supposing this continues indefinitely, what play do I have?

It feels powerless to say "i won't settle for that" when really my only play is disapproval or a move to plan B. I really feel like I'm missing something here.

I haven't read your whole thread but just the latest posts.

You cannot recover your marriage by being a doormat! You are allowing fear to dictate your actions. You cannot be afraid to lose your WW. Why would you be? Who would want to live with somebody like this for the rest of their life?!?

Your WW is cake-eating. C'mon...you can't possibly be so naive as to not see it. You are choosing not to see it because you are 'hoping for the best'. Well, if you keep operating like that you are in for nothing but pain and hurt moving forward.

It is time for you to set some boundaries and some consequences. It's time for no more contact with OM or you move on to Plan B.

You will not win back your WW and save your marriage by being a doormat. Time to get some cajones.

Mindshare

This is why there comes a point when you have to set your foot down. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke and getting nowhere.

The men on this board who take decisive action do well while those that whine and cry and walk on eggshells don't.

By doing well I'm talking about custody, not necessarily about saving the marriage.

But it's ironic that strong legal action and filing for custody is the one thing which seems to wake the WWes up to the fact that they stand to lose a ton by continuing their affair and not fixing their marriages.

What Melody sees as a demand I see it as a boundary and a line in the sand.

Her bags packed, locks changed, fiancial isolation, and legal papers are consequences to her affair.

I look back at my own situation and wish I had had the mental and emotional strength to the throw the cheating woman out on the street with enough cash for a hotel and a taxi while I filed all the legal motions I could to crucify her in court.

Granted, I loved her at the time and didn't wish to do that, but hindsight is 20/20.

The fact is that facing the ruin of the legal hell that was unleashed on her along with getting locked out of the home would have done a lot more for lifting her fog than what I did do which was cower, cry, whine, and surrender to her demands.

I look back in shame I wasn't strong. I urge you to not do the same as I did because trust me when I tell you that you will get over her.

Want to save your marriage? Draw the line in the sand and go to Plan B but get your legal ducks in order first.

She's ****edit**** another man and then coming home to cry to you about him. That's beyond disrespectful in my book and worthy of a pi$$ed off reaction by you.

You just let her know this will not work and you can't live like this. If she doesn't get it soon, then you move to separate and go into Plan B.

But, a DEMAND will not work for you in protecting your boundaries. A DEMAND will only make her dig in her feet even further. You state your boundaries, give her time to get on board, and then if she doesn't, take steps to separate.

WW refuses to leave the job.

WW refuses to stop seeing the OM.

You can't/refuse to believe that WW is still bangng the OM.

You believe her baloney we just hung out to party. Tell WW you know what the OM hung out and how she partied with it. Tell WW that you were not born yesterday to believe this garbage.

Expose every time WW goes and see's the OM.

This has happened three times. Have you reexposed every new time that WW has hooked up with the OM?

Good byes do not have to be done in person. They did not just talk.

Its not that its contradictory, its just that it DOESN'T WORK. You have boundaries and you have to be prepared to defend them with action. But you are much less likely to get what you need by making DEMANDS. You simply state your boundary and she either respects it or she doesnt. After some time, if she doesnt, then you act.

gwn, have you exposed at her work? The embarassment of everyone at her job knowing she acting like a ho may make her quit. She'll be pissed but so be it.

I'm one who agrees that an ultimatatum is the same as a boundary. However once you draw a line in the sand you need to stick to your guns and just not use it as a threat.

I would ask her not to bring up the subject of OM again. Do not bring up this man yourself. Focus on you.

Privately I would confront OM and find out what he intends to do with your wife? You know, if he don't like kids he is playing in the wrong arena.

Also this helps adjust your long term plans.

gwn, set her down and tell her you love her, but this plan will not work. It will not work for your marriage since every time she goes to work she will be triggered. And YOU will be triggered. You cannot live like that.

Tell her you also know that she is using "ending my affair" as a cover to sleep with the OM and you don't appreciate being lied to. [if she tries to deny it, just wave your hand and say "don't even bother - I already know"] That is not fair to you and the boys.

What you are willing to is give her another chance if ends all contact with the OM and leaves the gym forever. that is the only way your marriage is going to recover. Tell her you cannot live in a marriage where she goes to see the OM every day because that triggers you. Her affair has been devastating to you and the boys and unless she agrees to end all contact, you will have to take action to protect you and the boys. But the only way you are willing to work on this is if she takes the necessary first steps and leaves the gym and agrees to MOVE somewhere else.

Just get it all out there, gwn. You CANNOT sit there silently while she TELLS you what she is willing to do. The RAPIST does not get to develop the recovery plan for the rape victims.

gwn, I am sorry about the contradictory information you are getting here. I am trying to help you with PLAN A. Plan A is not about ultimatums and is not about remaining SILENT about the OM or the affair so I am not sure where that comes from.

I find it very frustrating trying to post in all this confusion and think I will step away. All these contradictions are NOT helpful to you.

ok ... so I just spoke with WW ... she called as I was rehearsing my broken record speech.

She asked how I was ... so I told her

"I'm not convinced that the plan that you've put in place for us to be able to recover our marriage is enough. I didn't want to pick a fight with you this morning but I have to be honest with you. I am convinced that the only chance we have to save our marriage is to take drastic action to ensure that you never have any contact with OM or the gym where the A developed ever again. In fact, I'm convinced that we will need to leave the area for our marriage to fully recover"

she snapped - don't give me an ultimatum, you can't control me, you can't ask me to leave my job ... why are you doing this???

I repeated, "I love you, and I want to recover our marriage. I am convinced that the only chance we have to save our marriage is to take drastic action to ensure that you never have any contact with OM or the gym where the A developed ever again."

this cycle repeated about 4-5 times ... then she said that she needs time. said "maybe we should just separate for a while"

I stood my ground, she's clear on where I stand. Ball is in her court.

Any advice on preparing for her to make a separation move?

Mel, you've tracked with me this long and haven't led me astray yet. I can respect if you need to step back, but I've really appreciated your input, and would value it if you could continue to help me.

In my mind, the difference between ultimatums and boundaries is a very fine one, and it boils down to attitude and frame of mind.

An ultimatum is an attempt to control someone else.
A boundary is an attempt to protect yourself.

Ultimatum:
If you go visit OM again I'm leaving (and then you'll be sorry!).

Boundary:
If you go visit OM again I'm leaving (because I cannot bear the pain).

Just keep saying this over and over again to her. At first she will blow and bluster and then when she sees you aren't scared of that, she will start thinking about it.

Now, where would you be moving to? I think you need presume you will be moving and will be saving your marriage, so some concrete plans are in order.

Her affair has a 95% plan of crumbling, so even if it doesn't crumble soon, I do think you should move regardless and give her a chance to follow you when her affair crumbles for good.

I will stay with you and I apologize for saying that. I get frustrated at seeing the confusion on your thread. I think it makes it much harder for you.

I think you did great. Her sense of entitlement is huge.

She doesn't make enough to live on comfortably at her job.
OM doesn't either, and unless he's independently wealthy, finances are going to throw a big kink into their fantasy.

If she moves out, let HER move out, you stay put in the nice home.
Then cut her off financially - have your checks go into an account that is in your name only, cancel all joint credit cards, and quit paying the note on her car, her insurance, her memberships, etc.

Let her know that when she is ready to behave like she's your wife, you'll support her like you're her husband.

Is there ANY more exposure you can do?
She is SO entitled, she really needs to feel some embarrassment about all of this.

thanks Mel. The phone call with ww was good and right. I appreciate TH's comments about ultimatums ... I did not make one, I expressed my honest beliefs and desire to save our marriage in the context of loving her and wanting to be with her.

I will repeat this broken record and will not be silent about any further contact with OM that I find out about.

And, I'll start making some plans for a move ... with or without her.

Lead her by the nose if you have to, but you must provide the boundary and the guidance. I think what you said was great.

Talk to a lawyer. That's the next step for legal separation. Show her you mean business.

I think there are no contradictions in the advice you've been given.

Melody, you're not off on your advice, but where do you finally say "enough is enough" and then move to Plan B? Plan B when you have kids requires legal papers.

SH says that a BS should follow Plan A for as long as they can stand it.

gwn has been there for her and laid out his boundaries. He'll look like a food and a doormat if his words and willingness to enforce consequences go nowhere.

She obviously doesn't care how he feels, so why will she care if he repeats what you say but doesn't follow it up with consequences if she continues her behavior?

I've been on this forum for 3 years and have seen marriages fail more often than not and seen way too many BHes who get hosed by WWes who are savvy enogh to use the system to their advantage.

Throwing a cheating wife out on the street with just the clothes on her back and legal papers giving the father custody and obligating her to pay CS is a very real consequence to her adultery and one that is often enough to wakeup them up to reality. They either defog quickly at that point or the father sets himself up in a good position legally to get custody of his children and protect them from a person who doesn't deserve to have them.

turtle, he and I had discussed a plan I heard Dr Harley outline on his radio show once that I think would be brilliant in this case. See, gwn lives RIGHT BY the gym, so they are going to have to move anyway if they ever hope to recover.

There was a similar situation in a call to Dr Harley's radio show once and he told the man to pack up his house and MOVE AWAY with the kids to another city.

That way, when the affair crumbled, the WW's only choice would be to follow them to the new city - AWAY from the OM and AWAY from her job. That would give them a CHANCE for recovery versus them living in the same place and fighting triggers daily.

He is looking for a job in another city and thinks he has a place to go.

Look, I am tired of this crap. If you don't know about Plan B then stop giving this man contradictory advice and muddying the waters for him. I am not going to come here and have to debate YOU in order to help this man.

I disagree. There's no need to add the "then you'll be sorry part" If WW does X then Y will happen. Sounds simple to me. The only problem I see is if the BS doesn't follow through so the BS has to be prepared to do so. If not, then don't say it.

Melody, that advice is great, but she could file papers forcing him to move back.

If he moves, he should do it within the same state or city, but far away from the adultery zone.

Moving out of state sets him up to lose in court. Moving within the state is more palatable to a judge.

He should be talking to a lawyer if he's going to move and take the kids.

Your advice works so long as she's not savvy enough to know that she can file legal motions to keep the kids in their city and school.

If the situation was reversed and she was the one to run off with the kids I'd be advising him to get a lawyer and file a motion forbidding the move of the kids and granting him temp custody pending a full hearing to prevent her moving away with the kids.

ok, Baron, was there some place in my post where I said NOT to get legal advice? What are you talking about?

Thanks for the reminder about GWN living near the gym, Mel. I'd forgotten that and the fact that he's looking to move away. I agree, it's brilliant in this situation - though with kids involved he'll need to talk to a great attorney about how he makes the move.

And Mel? 'ignore' is a delightful feature. You can have your own private Plan B and remove yourself from the drama

GWN, could you add the bit about your kids in your sig file? That does make a difference in your sitch since you're planning on moving and you'll want to take the kids with you. Thank you for catering to my wretched memory

Great advice!

thanks for the advice th

I've already made the financial arrangements, wasn't sure if she was just going to empty the bank account and run off, so that end is secure. She's already moved out - she's been at her mom's for a week, I think her idea of separation is to extend that longer, and for her to stop dropping by to see the kids and ending up talking relationship recovery with me.

I will not leave the house, or the kids.

I totally agree. There's no need to add either of the parenthetical statements out loud. And with both, you have to be 100% prepared to follow through with the consequences, else you do more damage than good. Idle threats are no good whatsoever.

The difference is only in the motivation. Anger and control vs. love. The difference is minute and perhaps irrelevant but I think it does make a difference in the growth and healing of the person protecting the boundary (or issuing the ultimatum).

I guess what it boils down to, for me, is a degree of maturity and ownership.

Of course I'm one of those people who can vacuum the floor lovingly, to make the home a nice place for DH, or I can vacuum it out of anger and bang things around. H says "You're vacuuming at me again" when I do that. So maybe it's just me

Angry vacuuming... I'll have to try that.

What is comes down to is what the BS can and can't handle or is willing to put up with. I didn't have to say anything like that to my FWH because I told him to take a hike after I pulled myself together. FWH KNEW I wouldn't put up with him still carrying on his A. It wasn't even a consideration in his mind and he dropped OW on a dime. But that's my experience and I know that often isn't the case.

Not quite, IMO. I think a declaration of a personal boundary should be in the form of an "I" statement, e.g.

"I will not accept a relationship where I'm sharing my W with someone else."

"I cannot accept a situation where I continue to be hurt because contact between you and the OM continues".

...followed by what you plan to do if the boundary continues to be breached.

Then I must vacuum in apathy.

i think you are right about the language MIM ... use of the word if makes it sound like an ultimatum.

I'm pretty sure that I've been using I statements, which is why it feels a bit powerless. There is no action if she doesn't agree with, or honor my broken record statement. There is no threat, no real consequence other than continuing to hurt me and hurt our boys. The consequence only comes when I've had enough and ask her to leave. I have not threatened that, nor will I. I will continue to express my love, and desire to recover our marriage, and the actions that I believe are required for us to move forward together. We'll either forge a path together, or she'll ignore me and continue the A. Eventually, I won't have any fight left. There is no threat, but there are inherent consequences.

does that make sense? or am I still sounding like a doormat?

I understand that you originally came from the US to go to Canada.

Is there any legal complication to take the kids, while married to go back to USA?

MiM: Yes! Boundaries are about "I". Good point.

GWN right now you are not setting boundaries *or* issuing ultimatums. You are reminding her how hurtful your behavior is.

Right now you're just saying "It's painful to see you continuing the A with OM". This eliminates (hopefully) her ability to tell herself "GWN doesn't care what I'm doing".

Plan B would be a boundary. That would be saying "I can't bear the pain of seeing you constantly interacting with OM, so I'm removing myself from the drama."

This did not come out at all as I would have liked:

I would like to repair this sentence: Do not bring up the subject of OM as an entity again. Bring up the triggers - the place of identification with OM. Focus on your PERCEPTIONS of influence to your marriage. At the same time do look smart when meeting WW.

Like Mel I agree that a physical removal is logical, provided you can do this legally hence my asking about physical removal of the children while married.

Keep in touch GWN!