Well I wasn't suggesting violence, just following through with your MIL and BIL making your wife a big negative in his existence. Making your wife too much trouble for him to pursue when there are so many easier less hassle options available.

mil is a sell out ... she's been miserable in marriage for decades ... she wants her daughter to be happy, won't confront. just prays ... not that prayer is ineffective, but she won't go there with OM.

still waiting on BIL's response.

What about OM's parents? Get a PI to find them. You have to deal agressively with this and bring pressure on the affair.

What about at work? Do they condone this? Is OM in a position of power over WW?

Don't be thinking you need to play fair. This is a time for all out agression against the affair.

Ok, you have the right idea about POJA but are applying it to a non-negotiable issue. You can't POJA something that will spell doom for your marriage. POJA is not to be used with terrorists. You can't negotiate with a terrorist.


Be a broken record, gwn. Tell her this will never work as long as she continues to work with the OM. Dr. Harley is adamant that in order to recover, we will have to move to another STATE.

Just be a broken record. She won't get it at first, but you must continue and never back off from this point.

Start looking for a job in another town and start making plans to pack up and move there. Let her know that you are looking into this because this is the only way your marriage can recover.

And you are right, you don't want to be "friends" with a woman who lies and cheats on you. "I won't have someone for a friend who lies and cheats to me and causes me this much pain." You are willing to be a HUSBAND to your WIFE once she ends her affair <----tell her this.

And do a search and expose the OM's parents. Call them up and ask them to use their influence to get their son to leave your wife alone.

Has she spoken to her daughter about her affair?

i don't really know ... she's not exactly straight up with me ... she feels for me, but i get the sense that she's playing both sides- feeling sorry for me but wanting "happiness" for her daughter.

huh? Don't you want the same thing for her daughter? What am I missing here? If you both want the same thing how can there be "both sides?"

she's a bit caught in the fog herself ... former ww ... probably wishes she stayed in A.

OMG.. I had hoped she would be on her DD's side.

me too ... mil remained in an unhappy marriage and never dealt with the crap ... doesn't want her DD to experience the same drudgery.

gwn, what about her father? Is he in the picture? What part is he playing here?

GWN - Get a PI and get some dirt on the sleazeball. Find his parents and friends and turn up the heat.

This is a time for WAR not sitting on your hands doing nothing.

I think that it would be a good idea to engage your wife a lot more often. Keep her out of the way of OM. Look very nice when you do this!

Of course, no marriage talk!

thanks imagine ... we do always end up talking about our relationship, it's the elephant in the living room.

I think that recreational companionship is one of her significant EN that I've failed to meet in the last couple years. I asked her out on a date ... skiing on Sunday, she agreed, smiled and said "why?" - i said i was trying to be a friend - I think that hit the sweet spot a bit, so I'll keep trying to engage her in that way.

so, I've got a new dilemma today ... (sorry in advance for the long post)

I am still with you BigK and others who are calling for all out war on the OM ... I'm not ignoring your advice.

but, let me bring you up to speed. Had dinner as a family last night, after a not so happy relationship talk that left me angry on the inside, but trying to smile on the outside. After dinner, she headed off ... didn't say where she was going, I didn't ask.

If you read my post last night, you know that I was in rough shape - if you haven't read it, and you want the context, you can skip back a page or two and give it a read.

Anyway ... I called MIL to see if WW arrived home safe ... MIL responded no, but that WW had called her to tell her that she was going to see OM to break it off.

WW called at about 11 and told me she had ended things with OM. She (apparently) asked him not to contact her, to move out of their mutual office, and to respect her new work hours so that their paths don't cross (don't worry, I'm not fooled by any of this - I know some of you are already polishing the 2x4). WW asked if we could meet for coffee this morning, I agreed, which brings us to today.

So we met for coffee ... she repeated the same story ... OM will respect her wished, OM will work mornings 'til 3:30, WW will work 4-10 - they'll never see each other, and we'll start from scratch "giving our marriage a second chance because it's the right thing to do". So, I've got a million questions, which I refrain from asking because I'm smart enough (thanks to y'all) to know that this all means nothing. The A is not over, the boundaries to ensure NC are not in place, triggers are not being avoided, and she is totally grieving, perhaps regretting, breaking up with the OM that she is "still in love with".

side note - I did manage to give her 4 things ... Harley's basic concepts, POJA, the EN questionnaire that she agreed to complete for me, and Harley's steps to recovery after the affair (all the stuff about leaving the state, total NC, withdrawal, total honesty etc ...)

so, to end the morning, as we parted, she was totally broken down in tears, but they were not tears of remorse (she's still waiving the "I am a free woman entitlement flag") they were tears of sadness/regret at the loss of the OM. She has no accountability, no proper boundaries - I would bet big on her breaking NC before the end of the day today, likely already has and it's only been 2-3 hours since we parted.

It angers me that every time she tries to end it, but doesn't do it right, that her resolve weakens, she becomes easier prey, she loses her will, and will eventually just say, I can't be apart from him, I've tried but I can't so I'm going to follow my heart.

At that point ... I can do nothing but continue A or B knowing that she's fully given over to OM. Right now, it feels like there is a tension, she's not sure who to choose - that gives me hope. If her weakened resolve from repeated attempts to end it leads her to just give up on us and run to him completely, I will be faced with a serious decision.

I'm not sure that there is a question anywhere in there - nor do I feel any better having vented. I know the A is not done, this recent maneuvering is all smoke an mirrors. I guess I'm still in plan A, committed to the process. Looking for more stick to swing, and working on the carrot.

on the carrot end - I think I should just drop all relationship talk unless she initiates it ... is that the right thing to do?

You very much should be talking about your marriage. The titantic is sinking as we speak. What was your reaction to the above deal she offered?

"what it will take for our marriage to recover is for all contact with the OM to end, even if that means moving to another state."

broken record, broken record, broken record, broken record.

gwn, you don't have a marriage any other way. I think you are afraid of losing her if you press this point, but let me assure you that you will lose her if you DON'T.

I would be on the phone to the OM's parents and anyone else who can help apply pressure to this affair.

Your wife is trying to negotiate a way to keep you and the OM on the farm. She slept with the OM AGAIN last night.

I don't think you understand that you are holding the winning hand here. She knows there is no future in this affair or SHE WOULD HAVE ALREADY LEFT. What she wants is to keep you BOTH.

And when she goes off to have sex with the OM, i would be talking to her about that. "It is very hurtful to me and the boys when you run off and have sex with the OM. This is teaching our boys that wrong is right."

She needs to hear this EVERY TIME. Don't sit there and say nothing, gwn.

I didn't react to her deal. It's the same deal as yesterday and the day before, I've consistently repeated that she must establish NC and that I will not share her with another man. She is acutely aware that I believe that she needs to leave the gym entirely. period. I've offered creative solutions, which she has refused. I did not try to negotiate with her today - she knows where I stand, and I know this "deal" is either a lie, or will fail quickly.

The "deal" makes it impossible for her to spend any quality time with our kids, and the "deal" is in no way a commitment to NC.

I continue to stand firm on being willing to work on our marriage once she's established NC. She is either delusional enough that she thinks she has in fact established NC, or she thinks that I'm dumb enough to fall for this "deal" - I know that this is not NC and that will reveal itself very quickly. So, I know that the ship is sinking and I feel a bit powerless to stop it.

the only "deal" that gives us a chance is the deal that involves complete NC with the OM or the gym.

we're at an impasse, she won't budge, nor will I. She thinks that this compromise is a "good deal" for me. I think it's BS, but I can't negotiate (she's in the fog) or manipulate/control it (that's the biggest LB in her eyes) ... that's not the Plan A way - is it?

Your silence signals AGREEMENT.