Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 14 of 18 1 2 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
Quote
I don't think its alot of women, but it seems to be the type who tries to take everything in stride, a fast ticket to marital hell. Men or women that "sacrifice" alot without protecting their boundaries tend to develop the worst boundaries. And then they ALWAYS blame the spouse when it was their own failure to protect their boundaries.

ITA. After my A it was very hard for me to really get why it wasn't my DH's fault and that it really was an issue with my boundaries AND my choices. It took my other board buddies forever to help me understand this one.

I never expected to have and A and thought "my ways" were safe. I learned the hard way they were not and all it took was a lethal combo with FOM and "wham" there I was making lots of bad choices and blaming my DH.

LC

Last edited by lifeschoice; 02/18/09 09:28 AM.




Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
I have a tendency to take on too much and become resentful. When the kids were babies/toddlers I was working full time, cooking dinner, giving baths, doing after-dinner cleanup, and packing the diaper bags for daycare the next day. exH complained that "the kids are more important to you than I am" because I spent so much time doing those tasks. Yet when I asked for help he just made himself scarce. Resentment? Entitlement? Yeah, a little bit!!

I still have to watch the tendency to do it all myself. I'll do all the house cleaning and cooking w/o asking for help and then end up exhausted because I don't want to be a burden or a nag. A clean house is a lot more important to me than to the kids or H. So I stress about the house long before they do... At the same time, I feel that it's not fair or right for me to ask them all to do chores to keep the house to a standard that's only important to me. I've had to work hard on relaxing my standards and asking for help when I need it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if your W has these tendencies, don't look for the problems to magically go away just because the kids are now in school or able to grab their own breakfast on a Saturday morning. She may be like me and have to learn to ask for help, and you'll need to work to really hear those requests and respond to them so she doesn't feel like she's being forced to "do it all".

Responding doesn't necessarily mean you jump up and vacuum. It could mean you hire a house keeper. It could mean you tell her "The dust bunnies will be there tomorrow, and they don't bother me at all anyway - I'd much rather go on a walk with you."

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
just got off the phone with ww ... she called to tell me that she's rescheduled all her clients for the evening so that she will avoid contact with OM.

I didn't buy it - and she was angry and threw threats around.

I told her (for what seems like the 1000th time) that I love her, and I want to recover our marriage, but that she needs to commit to total NC with OM if we are ever to have a chance. I told her that even if she just sees him in passing that her feelings for him will jump up all over again and we'll be back at square one. I also told her that even going to the gym, and never seeing him will still trigger her emotions for him since that's the environment where the whole thing blossomed. It was all very rational, and I know it to be very true.

She ranted about me trying to take from her the only thing she cares about, said "I'm not going to quit my job, so we might as well just separate" ... I didn't bite at that one either.

I told her clearly and calmly that I was not asking her to quit her job, but I was asking her to think creatively with me about ways she could continue training her clients without training them at the gym so that she could commit to never, ever, seeing OM again. I did not offer a solution, just asked her to be willing to think creatively with me ... she didn't bite. So the conversation ended at an impasse, but she certainly heard clearly that I don't consider her changing her schedule as a commitment to NC.

I didn't mention how freaking paranoid it would make me to have her go to the same gym every day, hoping that she doesn't bump into OM and get the whole thing started again. I won't live that way, the constant fear would kill me. Here, I'm thinking complete relocation of our family, and she's thinking of changing her schedule. We are not on the same page, and she clearly doesn't understand herself, the A, how this happened, how to avoid it, and the depth and breadth of the consequences of her current actions.

did I do the right thing? should it have played differently?

I am considering writing her a letter to reiterate my position, certainly I'd write it from a POJA standpoint, asking her to respect my feelings, not in the form of an ultimatum or demand.

any thoughts?


M - 12yrs
BS = me
DS8, DS6
EA D-day = 01/25/09
PA D-Day = 02/12/09
Plan A 01/27/09 -
Plan A with earnest exposure 02/12/29

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,554
Originally Posted by greatwhitenorth
any thoughts?

Yeah - stop trying to reason with a WW!

Did you ever try having a reasoned discussion with a drunk? Or a drug addict in the throes of their addiction? How did it work out for you?

"Rational" arguments typically do NOT work with a WW!!


Last edited by ManInMotion; 02/18/09 10:27 AM.

ManInMotion
===========
(see "MiM's Story" for more details)
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
ok. i hear you. what should I do in place of attempting to reason?



M - 12yrs
BS = me
DS8, DS6
EA D-day = 01/25/09
PA D-Day = 02/12/09
Plan A 01/27/09 -
Plan A with earnest exposure 02/12/29

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,288
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,288
Don't argue whether she is going to miss OM or not. A WW will always lie. Operate on the basis "trust but verify"

Please read through the articles on his site dealing with sensitive handling of anybody.

Sorry I cant access the spot for you. I gotta jack up my PC.


But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams -Yeats
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by greatwhitenorth
did I do the right thing? should it have played differently?

Yes, you did good, but you can't expect her to respond to reason. you are on the RIGHT TRACK. You have to be a broken record and say something like:

"I can't continue to live in an environment where you are still in contact with the OM. Our marriage can only recover if contact ends. Dr. Harley, the author of Surviving an Affair, who specializes in marital recovery after an affair, recommends MOVING to another city in order to avoid your affair partner."

Start talking about MOVING to another city, gwn. Tell her that is what it will take to recover your marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Also, you should understand that her moving her schedule to the night is nothing more than WINDOW DRESSING to trick you into allowing her to keep up her affair. She is not done at all.

If you don't believe me, ask her to send him a no contact letter:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Dr. Harley: My advice is to write a final letter in a way that the victimized spouse would agree to send it. It should begin with a statement of how selfish it was to cause those they loved so much pain, and while marital reconciliation cannot completely repay the offense, it's the right thing to do. A statement should be made about how much the unfaithful spouse cares about his spouse and family, and for their protection, has decided to completely end the relationship with the lover. He or she has promised never to see or communicate with the lover again in life, and asks the lover to respect that promise. Nothing should be said about how much the lover will be missed. After the letter is written, the victimized spouse should read and approve it before it is sent


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX





"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
BETTER YET, just hand her this article and tell her you know the only way to recover your marriage is to move:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
Quote
Also, you should understand that her moving her schedule to the night is nothing more than WINDOW DRESSING to trick you into allowing her to keep up her affair. She is not done at all.


From a BTDT POV, just by walking in the door of the building it will trigger good memories and feed her addiction. She doesn't necessarily have to see the OM to get a fix.

LC





Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by greatwhitenorth
i've never experienced this much pain in my life. why would someone who once said they loved you be willing to hurt you so deeply. My soul is in agony, my sobs have no sound. I cannot function, but sleep eludes me. pain upon pain ... that's some kind of LB.

GWN... you will be fine. I know... I went through it in a similar fashion, and thought that each breath might be my last. I felt so betrayed and so completely disbelieving, that I continually wanted to find anything in which to believe.

I found 2...

I have two children, who at the time were 9 and 5. I knew that I wanted to minimize anything concerning their pain, so I began running everything through a 'boys' filter. This helped calm my actions, but did little for my mind.

I also stayed with God. My favorite prayer is the one in which I pray not at all. God knows everything I need and desire. He knows what is good and bad, and he certainly has a better grip on my 'then wife' than I do. So my favorite prayer was one in which I worked to completely clear my mind. And I mean CLEAR IT... I did everything I could during the prayer to be at peace and NOT THINK or PRAY about anything. Trusting that my questions, desires, hopes, fears, and goals were better understood by God than by me. And that by me asking for something, I was in effect, lessening what HE knew he could do. I completely tried to open myself up to simple trust. I think of it as my 'blank' prayer, and it remains my favorite and probably most compelling prayer still. I use it often.

My final thought, at least one which gave me succor at the point in which you are suffering, was a mental picture I (God) formed for me. I felt as though my heart had been pounded into submission. That is was so very beaten and bruised that it would barely function. I pictured my heart, in reality, held in two hands. My view of this image is that my heart is alone, and being held in two hands... kind of like the praying hands sculpture you see every once in a while. I pictured those hands gently holding my heart, with all the dents, scratches, and dings that the hammers of my situation had caused. I pictured the thumbs of those hands, gently working those dents out. Smoothing the dings, and buffing the scratches. It was a labor of love, for the owner of those hands. One of caring, honor, and understanding.

When I pictured this, I felt almost as if it were a bronze sculpture, but definitely of ME. I felt that those hands belonged to Jesus, and that while he wasn't going to just snap his fingers and everything would be fine, that he was there for me, and that if I gave him time and access to my heart, that he had the power to fix every last one of those dents.

My ex did not come out of the fog. That is OK... but I absolutely KNOW that I am a better man. That I am going to be OK. And that I have my boys, now 12 and 15, who are growing into fine young men in their own right. And I know that he is right there... and when my heart gets beat up by something, if I give it to him... he will work those dents out... in his own, understanding, love filled time.


Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,965
Originally Posted by greatwhitenorth
I told her (for what seems like the 1000th time) that I love her, and I want to recover our marriage, but that she needs to commit to total NC with OM if we are ever to have a chance. I told her that even if she just sees him in passing that her feelings for him will jump up all over again and we'll be back at square one. I also told her that even going to the gym, and never seeing him will still trigger her emotions for him since that's the environment where the whole thing blossomed. It was all very rational, and I know it to be very true.

I wouldn't try to educate her. She's wayward, and to her education feels like you're controlling her, manipulating her, and judging her. She's not open to education or rational logic. For that reason, too, I'd sit tight on the info Melody Lane suggested that you print out and give to her. Once she says she's on board with recovering the M and commits to NC, she will be more open to that information. Right now, though, I think she'll bristle and be resistant. HER feelings are REAL. HER feelings can't be predicted, known, or understood by some geeky marriage therapist who has no idea of HER and what SHE is going through.

For that reason, I think I'd change my message a little bit. Maybe something like:

I love you, and I want to recover our marriage, but I need you to commit to total NC with OM if we are ever to have a chance. I am not willing to be in a marriage that has a third party in it. That is unacceptable to me.

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by turtlehead
For that reason, I think I'd change my message a little bit. Maybe something like:

I love you, and I want to recover our marriage, but I need you to commit to total NC with OM if we are ever to have a chance. I am not willing to be in a marriage that has a third party in it. That is unacceptable to me.

that's what I've been saying all along ... this mornings phone call was my first attempt at applying any rational logic, won't try that again for a while ... I am, as you suggested, going back to the basics.



M - 12yrs
BS = me
DS8, DS6
EA D-day = 01/25/09
PA D-Day = 02/12/09
Plan A 01/27/09 -
Plan A with earnest exposure 02/12/29

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by lifeschoice
Quote
Also, you should understand that her moving her schedule to the night is nothing more than WINDOW DRESSING to trick you into allowing her to keep up her affair. She is not done at all.


From a BTDT POV, just by walking in the door of the building it will trigger good memories and feed her addiction. She doesn't necessarily have to see the OM to get a fix.

LC

Thanks so much for helping hammering this message home, LC. It is so good for BS' to see this from your perspective.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,602
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by lifeschoice
Quote
Also, you should understand that her moving her schedule to the night is nothing more than WINDOW DRESSING to trick you into allowing her to keep up her affair. She is not done at all.


From a BTDT POV, just by walking in the door of the building it will trigger good memories and feed her addiction. She doesn't necessarily have to see the OM to get a fix.

LC

Thanks so much for helping hammering this message home, LC. It is so good for BS' to see this from your perspective.

I hope it helps. UGH, I hate to even think about the mental anguish all 4 of us had to endure when FOM and I continued to work together all that time. Hindsight, it could have been so much less if either Docp or FOM's DW had stumbled across MB's and pressed the issue of total NC. Years wasted on this mess when we all could have been rebuilding.

LC

Last edited by lifeschoice; 02/18/09 03:55 PM. Reason: typo




Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
I'm going to disagree with some of the advice regarding the "3 weeks in Costa Rica" I suggest you don't leave it in the can for when she commits to NC. I suggest you use that nuke now.

Many people get hung up on the reasons why a wayward returns etc - but in the long run it doesn't matter a bit.

3 weeks AWAY from OM will do her a world of good and she will start to withdraw from him.

She isn't gong to come back because she choses you in all probability - it will be because of the pressure exerted by her MIL and by the glimmer of hope your WW has that you might change. Is pressure being applied to OM as suggested?


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
ok friends, I need talking off the ledge tonite. sorry for the melodrama but the rage has finally set in.

WW threw me a bone today, changing her schedule to work opposing schedules to the OM. Bull&*^(

She feels like she's doing the right thing but ML called it - it's window dressing.

I realize that arguing with a drunk is stupid, but I introduced the concept of POJA today ... if we are trying to recover as a married couple (huge assumption) then we ought to work together to make mutually beneficial decisions. I'm not comfortable with where she has set the boundary to ensure NC.

Sure enough, she snapped - I'm my own woman, you don't own me, you can't control me, you won't manipulate me, you can't give me an ultimatum ... I won't quit my job, if you can't deal with that then it's you who is not willing to work on our marriage. What BS!

I explained that I'm not asking her to quit, I just want to operate with POJA and brainstorm some solutions where we both get what we want ... where we both hear, understand and respect each others wishes and hearts. Nothing doing.

She thinks she's made a big move to change her schedule, but it's a big farce. I asked her straight up if she's still in contact with OM, she said of course, she's trying to decide between the two of us.

Then she said we're starting from zero, (forget about 12 years and 2 kids) and that we need to be friends, that that's the start of the process for her, she needs me to be her friend (not her husband) - I respond that I can't be her friend, (interpret - love her the way she needs to be loved, meet her EN) while she is still seeing OM and engaged in the A ... she says that's my problem not hers. Bull%^* that's her problem and I'm coming to the end of my patience.

I get the principles in Plan A but how can I treat my WW like a friend when she is perpetrating the most hurtful, deceitful, painful betrayal that a friend can ever lay on another friend.

"hey - while i peel the skin off your body, please tell me how much you love me, how attracted you are to me, how proud you are of who I'm becoming. Hey - while I destroy our kids chances at succeeding in school, career and love, please tell me how great a mom I am. Hey - while i flaunt my relationship with OM and deny you any affection at all, please tell me how much you miss me and enjoy being with me"

ok. enough said. I'm coming to the end. Perhaps tomorrow will be better, but I'm pissed today and need some help climbing off the ledge.

just to add icing to the cake ... she left 45 minutes ago in the snow ... called to see if she'd arrived at MIL's safely ... MIL told me no, that WW had called to say she was going to see OM to break it off tonite ... again I say Bull%&*(

thank God for vodka.



M - 12yrs
BS = me
DS8, DS6
EA D-day = 01/25/09
PA D-Day = 02/12/09
Plan A 01/27/09 -
Plan A with earnest exposure 02/12/29

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
after the convo today, I'm pretty sure she won't bite on three weeks away from her job ... the Costa trip might be a pipe dream
F.


M - 12yrs
BS = me
DS8, DS6
EA D-day = 01/25/09
PA D-Day = 02/12/09
Plan A 01/27/09 -
Plan A with earnest exposure 02/12/29

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
What are you doing about OM?


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
G
Member
OP Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 135
i've run out of legal options ... beating the snot out of him might hurt my custody chances.



M - 12yrs
BS = me
DS8, DS6
EA D-day = 01/25/09
PA D-Day = 02/12/09
Plan A 01/27/09 -
Plan A with earnest exposure 02/12/29

Page 14 of 18 1 2 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (Blackhawk), 114 guests, and 51 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
cbm800, Dodo M, Kingpin, MikaylaVaux, I.P.
71,728 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,546
Posts2,322,790
Members71,729
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5