gwn, I am sorry about the contradictory information you are getting here. I am trying to help you with PLAN A. Plan A is not about ultimatums and is not about remaining SILENT about the OM or the affair so I am not sure where that comes from.

I find it very frustrating trying to post in all this confusion and think I will step away. All these contradictions are NOT helpful to you.

ok ... so I just spoke with WW ... she called as I was rehearsing my broken record speech.

She asked how I was ... so I told her

"I'm not convinced that the plan that you've put in place for us to be able to recover our marriage is enough. I didn't want to pick a fight with you this morning but I have to be honest with you. I am convinced that the only chance we have to save our marriage is to take drastic action to ensure that you never have any contact with OM or the gym where the A developed ever again. In fact, I'm convinced that we will need to leave the area for our marriage to fully recover"

she snapped - don't give me an ultimatum, you can't control me, you can't ask me to leave my job ... why are you doing this???

I repeated, "I love you, and I want to recover our marriage. I am convinced that the only chance we have to save our marriage is to take drastic action to ensure that you never have any contact with OM or the gym where the A developed ever again."

this cycle repeated about 4-5 times ... then she said that she needs time. said "maybe we should just separate for a while"

I stood my ground, she's clear on where I stand. Ball is in her court.

Any advice on preparing for her to make a separation move?

Mel, you've tracked with me this long and haven't led me astray yet. I can respect if you need to step back, but I've really appreciated your input, and would value it if you could continue to help me.

In my mind, the difference between ultimatums and boundaries is a very fine one, and it boils down to attitude and frame of mind.

An ultimatum is an attempt to control someone else.
A boundary is an attempt to protect yourself.

Ultimatum:
If you go visit OM again I'm leaving (and then you'll be sorry!).

Boundary:
If you go visit OM again I'm leaving (because I cannot bear the pain).

Just keep saying this over and over again to her. At first she will blow and bluster and then when she sees you aren't scared of that, she will start thinking about it.

Now, where would you be moving to? I think you need presume you will be moving and will be saving your marriage, so some concrete plans are in order.

Her affair has a 95% plan of crumbling, so even if it doesn't crumble soon, I do think you should move regardless and give her a chance to follow you when her affair crumbles for good.

I will stay with you and I apologize for saying that. I get frustrated at seeing the confusion on your thread. I think it makes it much harder for you.

I think you did great. Her sense of entitlement is huge.

She doesn't make enough to live on comfortably at her job.
OM doesn't either, and unless he's independently wealthy, finances are going to throw a big kink into their fantasy.

If she moves out, let HER move out, you stay put in the nice home.
Then cut her off financially - have your checks go into an account that is in your name only, cancel all joint credit cards, and quit paying the note on her car, her insurance, her memberships, etc.

Let her know that when she is ready to behave like she's your wife, you'll support her like you're her husband.

Is there ANY more exposure you can do?
She is SO entitled, she really needs to feel some embarrassment about all of this.

thanks Mel. The phone call with ww was good and right. I appreciate TH's comments about ultimatums ... I did not make one, I expressed my honest beliefs and desire to save our marriage in the context of loving her and wanting to be with her.

I will repeat this broken record and will not be silent about any further contact with OM that I find out about.

And, I'll start making some plans for a move ... with or without her.

Lead her by the nose if you have to, but you must provide the boundary and the guidance. I think what you said was great.

Talk to a lawyer. That's the next step for legal separation. Show her you mean business.

I think there are no contradictions in the advice you've been given.

Melody, you're not off on your advice, but where do you finally say "enough is enough" and then move to Plan B? Plan B when you have kids requires legal papers.

SH says that a BS should follow Plan A for as long as they can stand it.

gwn has been there for her and laid out his boundaries. He'll look like a food and a doormat if his words and willingness to enforce consequences go nowhere.

She obviously doesn't care how he feels, so why will she care if he repeats what you say but doesn't follow it up with consequences if she continues her behavior?

I've been on this forum for 3 years and have seen marriages fail more often than not and seen way too many BHes who get hosed by WWes who are savvy enogh to use the system to their advantage.

Throwing a cheating wife out on the street with just the clothes on her back and legal papers giving the father custody and obligating her to pay CS is a very real consequence to her adultery and one that is often enough to wakeup them up to reality. They either defog quickly at that point or the father sets himself up in a good position legally to get custody of his children and protect them from a person who doesn't deserve to have them.

turtle, he and I had discussed a plan I heard Dr Harley outline on his radio show once that I think would be brilliant in this case. See, gwn lives RIGHT BY the gym, so they are going to have to move anyway if they ever hope to recover.

There was a similar situation in a call to Dr Harley's radio show once and he told the man to pack up his house and MOVE AWAY with the kids to another city.

That way, when the affair crumbled, the WW's only choice would be to follow them to the new city - AWAY from the OM and AWAY from her job. That would give them a CHANCE for recovery versus them living in the same place and fighting triggers daily.

He is looking for a job in another city and thinks he has a place to go.

Look, I am tired of this crap. If you don't know about Plan B then stop giving this man contradictory advice and muddying the waters for him. I am not going to come here and have to debate YOU in order to help this man.

I disagree. There's no need to add the "then you'll be sorry part" If WW does X then Y will happen. Sounds simple to me. The only problem I see is if the BS doesn't follow through so the BS has to be prepared to do so. If not, then don't say it.

Melody, that advice is great, but she could file papers forcing him to move back.

If he moves, he should do it within the same state or city, but far away from the adultery zone.

Moving out of state sets him up to lose in court. Moving within the state is more palatable to a judge.

He should be talking to a lawyer if he's going to move and take the kids.

Your advice works so long as she's not savvy enough to know that she can file legal motions to keep the kids in their city and school.

If the situation was reversed and she was the one to run off with the kids I'd be advising him to get a lawyer and file a motion forbidding the move of the kids and granting him temp custody pending a full hearing to prevent her moving away with the kids.

ok, Baron, was there some place in my post where I said NOT to get legal advice? What are you talking about?

Thanks for the reminder about GWN living near the gym, Mel. I'd forgotten that and the fact that he's looking to move away. I agree, it's brilliant in this situation - though with kids involved he'll need to talk to a great attorney about how he makes the move.

And Mel? 'ignore' is a delightful feature. You can have your own private Plan B and remove yourself from the drama

GWN, could you add the bit about your kids in your sig file? That does make a difference in your sitch since you're planning on moving and you'll want to take the kids with you. Thank you for catering to my wretched memory

Great advice!

thanks for the advice th

I've already made the financial arrangements, wasn't sure if she was just going to empty the bank account and run off, so that end is secure. She's already moved out - she's been at her mom's for a week, I think her idea of separation is to extend that longer, and for her to stop dropping by to see the kids and ending up talking relationship recovery with me.

I will not leave the house, or the kids.

I totally agree. There's no need to add either of the parenthetical statements out loud. And with both, you have to be 100% prepared to follow through with the consequences, else you do more damage than good. Idle threats are no good whatsoever.

The difference is only in the motivation. Anger and control vs. love. The difference is minute and perhaps irrelevant but I think it does make a difference in the growth and healing of the person protecting the boundary (or issuing the ultimatum).

I guess what it boils down to, for me, is a degree of maturity and ownership.

Of course I'm one of those people who can vacuum the floor lovingly, to make the home a nice place for DH, or I can vacuum it out of anger and bang things around. H says "You're vacuuming at me again" when I do that. So maybe it's just me

Angry vacuuming... I'll have to try that.

What is comes down to is what the BS can and can't handle or is willing to put up with. I didn't have to say anything like that to my FWH because I told him to take a hike after I pulled myself together. FWH KNEW I wouldn't put up with him still carrying on his A. It wasn't even a consideration in his mind and he dropped OW on a dime. But that's my experience and I know that often isn't the case.

Not quite, IMO. I think a declaration of a personal boundary should be in the form of an "I" statement, e.g.

"I will not accept a relationship where I'm sharing my W with someone else."

"I cannot accept a situation where I continue to be hurt because contact between you and the OM continues".

...followed by what you plan to do if the boundary continues to be breached.