Hello all,

I would love to have your advice and counsel on how to proceed from here. This first post is going to be very long. My saga has been going on for 18 months, and this note details recent events. Big questions in my mind is how do Plan A and B fit if we're already in the divorce process? Am I even doing these "right?"

Here goes --

Married 7 years, DD5. Bomb dropped 18 months back (ILYBNILWY), "actually, I never loved you." October through September I keep asking W to reconsider, to work on our M, to no avail. W stopped therapy which we had done for 1.5 years prior, with therapist dumbfounded at the speed of W's desire to separate. STBXW moved to guest bedroom in January 2008. We began divorce process in May, using a "collaborative" practice rather than litigation - I'm dragging heals, as D is not what I want, and I've worked very hard on me (W observed and noted this several times, but her "feelings" do not return).

I suspected W was seeing someone throughout this whole process, but there was little proof. All along she's been indicating a strong need to see other men even though we are still living together. I've insisted that she would need to move out if this was the case. Some fights about this, and she has not been willing to move out because she would not be able to afford a house (nor own an apartment). Financially I would keep most everything in a Divorce (per the law), and I do not feel like taking myself out of a house to go to a Condo, just so she can own her own condo.

W's main complaint about our marriage is that "something was always missing", and that we did not have a very intense sex life or strong emotional connection. She also, now, acknowledges that she had a role in all of this too and that she never expressed what she really needed (instead she would complain and try to control). But... she has no interest in working on this with me. She wants to apply Harville Hendrix's philosophy, Imago therapy, etc. to her next relationship but not try any of this with me.

Since January I've been trying to DB, do 180s, avoid conflict and be the best spouse ever. It all works to a point, because she will not have intimacy, and the divorce is a big disagreement between us (she wants it, I don't).

In preparation for the Divorce wife started working again in April (after 6 years off), but lost two jobs in succession between July and September. While I make good $, we really can't afford two households just on my salary. I have some savings, but do not want to drain that (in this market).

In August of 2008 W went to the burning man festival. I now know that she had plans to hook up with 1 guy there, and ended up hooking up with 3 guys in total, and has maintained flirty contact every since. In september and october she was making plans to hook up again with all of them. She also got into a deep and intense sexual and emotional affair with one of them. This guy was local and married. I was really torqued when I saw the proof in October - her gmail was left logged-in on the computer. I had suspected an affair all along, and even though this steamy affair was new, seeing their letters hurt. I also learned that she had been seeing an out-of-state single guy every few months since early in our separation discussions.

In her mind this was not really cheating or affairs because she "dumped" me a year earlier, moved to guest room in Jan, and we're hammering out a divorce agreement throughout 2008.

I contacted OM's Wife and exposed on 10/28. Next morning OM sent a good bye note to my W, his W gave him an ultimatum and he elected to work on his marriage. He and my W were spinning wheels for a couple of weeks trying to figure out how they were outed, and eventually it came out that it was me. STBXW was very pissed at me for "taking him away" from her.

November/december things calm down some, W goes through a mourning period of sorts. She does not attempt to find work again. We also look at the financial realities of the separation - it will be brutal, particularly for her.

In late December her mother comes for a visit (she knows nothing of this), and right before she shows up the STBXW says "maybe this is all a mistake." and "I can't do this". The next day she goes back to "I just don't have those feelings, and we need to D."

Her mother stays throughout the holidays and then leaves. I initiated two R talks during this period, inviting my W to explore what's going on between us and to work on repairing us. She says 'no' both times. I indicate to her that things will be different in the new year.

As of the first of the year I have consistently communicated that I'm done, and we need a separation ASAP. The legal and coaching team has gotten the message, and W has gotten the message. Incredibly she still does not dig in to do a serious job search, networking, etc. Instead picks up a sport she is very passionate about and neglected in the past year, and she starts practicing for a big competition that will take place 2/20. We're talking about a 15 to 20 hr per week commitment.

Around 1/15 we meet with the lawyers and I lay out a proposed, and somewhat generous separation of assets, with a lump sum support payment upfront. It would allow her to buy her condo (what she's wanted, if she had a job) and I request a move out date in 2 to 3 months. I will contend with keeping the house and DD5's private education, and will probably not be able to do both long-term. W starts saying that we can't separate without her having a job. I also clarify my offer, that I'm not picking up any more of her costs she is on the hook for that from this moment forward (legal bills, her portion of monthly living expenses, etc. -- all comes out of her pocket now). Still very little movement from W on finding a job and lots of focus on the competition that takes place next week in Vegas.

The legal process has begun to stall, and STBXW is trying to buy time. She is rightfully concerned that she can not get a job in this economy, and even if she does it will not be sufficient. I have steadfastly maintained that we need to separate, in a matter of weeks, not months. Needless to say she is scared of this and refuses to leave without a job.

This morning I left the house having decided to go dark, after another slap in the face delivered on Valentine's day. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I could tell something was up when I first woke up, DD5 was watching TV and STBXW had left very early in the morning. She was gone until 2:30pm, and there were several of the usual signs suggesting that she was out on a sexual-encounter / outing of the sort she has been having throughout the past year.

I took care of DD5. It was ironic that DD5 wanted to make Valentine decorations for the house, which we hung up, and then we watched a movie together, and STBXW joined half way through. DD5 put herself down early and STBXW and I were "alone" early in the evening. Out of the blue STBXW asked "How are you doing?" and I expressed my frustrations. I did not get angry, yell, or demean her. But I did say that "for me, this is not working - with you seeing other guys and living here. Be it real, or imagined, i just can't take it. And we need to separate."

We did some past relationship talk - she actually took some responsibility for some things she did (not express herself during the relationship, blame me for little things while she does the same types of mistakes, I wasn't like her college flame in both good and bad ways, etc.) and she clearly backed off of the "I never loved you" line. We also talked about the financial separation. She is now fearing the costs of the divorce so repeated her standby mantra from the past year "I've said from the start that we don't need any of these divorce lawyers, lets just figure it out between the two of us without these costly meetings."

At one point STBXW was very anxious that I may pull the plug on the collaborative divorce and go down a litigation path. She also said that she doesn't think she can get a job, and she doesn't believe that we can separate without her having a job (she some how convinced herself that this is almost a legal truism).

So here is the kicker -- after all of that... i asked her if she could understand the pain i am enduring having her live here while having trysts with other guys. She stated that she "broke up with "Tom" (my name for OM in my initial post), and is not talking with "[censored]". But can not promise to not see other guys. She says that she simply can not deny herself right now, it is "hormonal." She went on to tell me that I should not go looking for this stuff because it will only hurt me. And... she kept trying to convince me to go out and date other women myself, and that she doesn't mind and would be happy for me. I guess i should respect the honesty, but this ludicrous exchange basically broadcasted to me three things - 1) that what I thought happened, did happen, and her friend "Harry" is in town from pheonix for valentines day. 2) she doesn't give two bits about how i feel, it is all me,me,me in her mind 3) she will use and abuse me in this way until I put a stop to it. The "use" part is her living off of the comfort i provide while I sink deeper into a debt hole to which she will not own up, the "abuse" part is her lack of common decency to move out while playing these high-school dating games.

In November I had figured out that she saw "Harry" last Feb, June, and possibly in November -- "Harry" is different from the OM at the beginning of the thread. He is a guy she knew from high-school, lives in a different state, and it's "just" sex and fun.

So I packed a small bag late last night, and left at 6:30am. DD5 was sleeping, but STBXW came down as I was opening the garage door. She tried to stop me, but I just repeated "I have to go now". She got upset because I previously told her that i would watch DD5 on Monday. I just shrugged (most likely she had plans with "Harry" for Monday, while I spend my day off from work taking care of DD5). She said "you can't leave without us having a plan" and I just said "of course I can." She said "what about DD5?" and I said "Tell her that daddy is on a business trip, he loves her very much, and will see her Wednesday for skiing." She left the garage, and I drove away.

My plan is to stay at the hotel until Wednesday. Wednesday afternoon I will drive by, exchange cars, and pick up DD5. We were already planning to go to Tahoe from Wednesday night through Sunday while STBXW is away at her competition. Wednesday afternoon STBXW is heading to vegas for the competition and her fun vacation - I think "Harry" may be there as well but there is no way to tell. She will return next Monday the 23rd and I plan to go back to the hotel after work. If all goes per plan then the next time I will see STBXW will be Thursday the 26th at the legal 4-way at lawyers. The topic will be the separation proposal, and an immediate move-out by her.

In the last conversation with stbxw last night I basically said "ok, you say we should just determine the separation and tell the lawyers what to do. I'm all for that, why don't we sit down tomorrow night and figure it out.?" She avoided answering and then finally said that it is "impossible" to discuss a settlement because she doesn't have a job. I said that people do this all the time, and realistically there is no difference between a scenario where she has a job right now, we separate with some agreement, but then she loses her job shortly after.

She did not see it this way, but I just asked again when could we talk. She finally said that she can't focus on this right now, and would like to get past her competition. I said 'ok'. But I pretty much got my answer on exactly why we need the discussion to happen with the lawyers present. For all of her bravado about "figuring this out ourselves" The reality is that she is clinging to this fantasy that we will delay separation indefinitely, and that in the meantime she can have her cake and eat it too.

I checked with my lawyer, and my leaving the house for a few days does not relinquish any legal claims or rights that I have. My actions will not be construed as a resolution proposal for the near or long-term, and it will not even be construed as the defacto interim living arrangement.

So there you have it. I suppose it is also a Plan B of sorts, in terms of separation and going dark. The past 3 months I've been very supportive of her and allowed her to pursue her dream with respect to this competition, it was a Plan-A of sorts. I am now switching gears and going dark, with a Plan-B type of separation. One thing I'm attempting to do is to bring the reality of the D home to roost... and while my STBXW elects to bury her head in the sand and ignore these realities, I expect that our next meeting (the 4-way at lawyers on the 26th) will remove all shadows of doubt. It is also my way to force myself to move on and bring an end to the limbo state we've been in for the past year. Co-habitating and appeasement clearly were not going to produce any DB results. I made changes, I avoided LoveBusters, and while there were prominent set backs every few months, I think I did well overall - especially in the past 3 months.

I'm conflicted on one front -- I'm taking the stance that if She wants out, then fine, but she is on her own. To follow through on this also means setting her off with her down payment on a condo, and watching her consume that to pay for rent in the next 18 months (i.e. she will never be able to buy a place if she can't find a well paying job within 4 to 5 months). It is an evaporation of an estate and nest-egg that my DD5 could use if we continue to live together until STBXW finds a job (a year in my estimation). It's a conflict of DB strategy and emotional well-being vs. watching out for soft-landing for STBXW and DD5.

Any thoughts or advice on any of this?

Additional info.

I have read all the materials on the site. I also have been monitoring these boards for several months. There is not much advice on how to deal with this, or do Plan A/Plan B during a divorce process, even an "amicable" process like the one my W pursued with the collaborative. The challenge I had was that the request to Divorce came right at the start... There was not much of a "confused" period, need space, etc. and even through all this time my W has clung to this, even as she benefited from all that I provide.

Another big question I have is should I now be pushing this hard for the divorce and the forced separation? Or should I just go dark and let her stay at the house with the comforts, etc.?

Pushing for the D is certainly a forcing function and applies pressure on W while she is unemployed. However, it will most likely lead to a permanent separation forced by me, a move out date in the near future, and a legal formalization of that separation in a month or two.

I think that if she chooses to reverse course right now it will only be because of financial fear, not because she feels any differently about me.

Thoughts?

Has she always been this self-centered, self-serving?

I am assuming that since your DD is only five and you have only been married 7 years, you are both quite young.

Be honest with the answer to my question. Even looking at her behaviour before you were married, past R's, etc.

I have found that when dealing with waywards, past behaviour is very indicative of future behaviour.

In other words, is there a reason you want to stay with her, aside from your DD and finances. Is this is an aboration of character for her?

If so, I would not move out of the house, but I would stop showing her that I am willing and able to accept any and all abuse she has to offer.

And dating other men, throwing it in your face, etc., is abuse of the worst kind.

Actually, I'd put her on a bus to her mother's house (without your DD) and let her live with the consequences of her ridiculously immature choices).

What does your atty say about changing the locks.

Does your inlaws and parents know what is going on with the divorce proceedings and her affairs?

Thanks for the reply Weaves.

Quick answers: We're not that young, I'm 41 STBXW is 43.

In terms of history:

I do not think she was so self-centered, I think that this is more of her MLC kicking in full steam. Most folks believe her to be a very caring person that goes out of her way to do for others. I did find her to be demanding though in the past.

She has though established a track record of failed intense relationships in various aspects of her life. Examples include her father passing away when she was 12 (not her fault, but you can't tell me it's not a factor in her psyche). When I met her she had a passable relationship with her sister who lives in the midwest, but it turns out that this was just a passing 6 year lull in a stormy relationship. They've never gotten along, and in the past 4 years her sister refuses to talk with my W. There was a major falling out in their family over what to do with their aging mother. My W pushed too hard, and while she wasn't all wrong, she also didn't listen to her sister's requests. This led to a year of no contact by her mother and sister - they basically cut off my W. Eventually things squared away, but the relationships there are strained or dead. This is part of the reason why STBXW has not told her family, she simply does not expect any of them to support her. She would also like to just tell them that it's "a mutual decision that is for the best, sometimes relationships just don't work."

Interpersonal relationships, and inability to navigate those were big contributors to her loss of the two jobs that she had last year. I also recall that she had issues with co-workers at the jobs she had before we got married, but these did not lead to termination, just her frustrations and ultimately she left those jobs.

As to your question of why stay with her?

There are several reasons in addition to DD.
1. I love her, truely
2. I have not been the best husband either. Please understand that two years into the marriage she asked me to do the Harville Hendrix work, and I just scoffed. I was very naive in what it takes to make a LTR work, and essentially missed my chance. She asked that we go to counseling two years later, and I went but didn't really commit to the work or open up. When she said she was done I woke up, but it was too late. Despite all of this I believe that we are uniquely suited to heal each other if we can get beyond this crisis.
3. She is actually an incredible person, and a very thoughtful and caring individual. Also a very emotionally aware person, who is simply caught in an MLC fog at the moment. A lot of what is happening in our relationship now are reactions to fears, and these perpetuate her mental 'stories' about why we should be apart. When you read my description of the past 18 months you won't see much evidence of her greatness, but that's because of the fact that we've been in this on-going conflict and this self inflicted limbo-land.

My parents are aware of the separation and D. They've been aware since the start, and have visited several times.

We're doing a collaborative divorce, which means that we make all the decisions, and the lawyers are simply advisers. This method is supposed to be the most amicable and least spiteful way to do this. The threat to pull out and go down a traditional path hangs overhead, so you can't disregard the law entirely, unless both parties agree do do so. Changing locks, throwing someone out, filling restraining orders, etc. all violate the spirit of the collaborative process and we signed docs that say we won't do this. It may seem strange, but keep in mind that this works both ways -- my STBXW really has her back against the wall from a financial perspective. Many women faced with this situation bring up trumped up abuse charges and restraining orders, and this process protects me from that playbook as well.

Well, it's been a heck of a day, and it's just about time to turn in.

I retrieved my phone though and just saw an SMS from W. She sent it at 6:45am, minutes after I left the garage. It said the following:

"[Upwards], I understand. But isn't it sad that we feel we have to 'sneak' to take care of ourselves because we're afraid of the consequences from the other? Let's just dump the anger and support the less than ideal ways we each choose to cope.

[stbxw]"

Well... clearly she doesn't understand, wouldn't you say? In her mind the sexual encounters are a coping mechanism for dealing with the impending divorce (back to her "hormonal" comment). I don't exactly agree with this, but the main point is that she clearly still doesn't get that this is hurtful and abusive.

If I understand this request, she is asking for us to continue living together while we hammer out the separation agreement, and while she looks for a job. And the big change would be that I support her openly getting fulfilled elsewhere so that there is no sneaking involved.

btw - I don't get the "we" part in her message. I have not been sneaking around, unless she references the snooping I did back in October.

Back to the big picture: Should I send a Plan B letter? I'm not sure exactly what I'm stating (Am I asking that she return to work on the marriage? Am I threatening to push forward on the separation even while she doesn't have a job? ). I'm also not exactly comfortable being the one who left the house, so not exactly clear on the logistics side, is it me who is out of the house or her? What do I do about finances at this point in time? The mortgage has to be paid even if I'm not in the house... STBXW is actually sitting comfy at home, while I'm holed up in a hotel room.

Being you are living together there is no reason to not do a plan A.

You can state that if WW does not want to D then she must give up all OM. Write NC letters, have you check then mail them. She must live transparent to verify NC. Gives access to all phones and bills, passwords to all emails.

Otherwise keep moving forward with the D. Don't be a doormat and let her use you finance her affair. Cut off credit cards and joint accounts. Are both cars in your name. Why let her use one of your cars to go bang the OM? Do not let her not have a job stop you from D.

I would also place a digigtal voice activated recorder without telling WW in the house and her car. Keylogger on the home computer. Do not trust without verification.

Find out and expose all of the OMW's.

Expose to WW parents and siblings.

A few quick comments:

1. Get your butt back into your home. You've basically abandoned your DD to be full-time under the influence of a very active and unrepentant WS. Not the best of situations, is it?

2. Stop making excuses for your WS's behaviour, and start looking at the situation as what it is, not what you wish it would be. Your WS' behaviour is likely not going to change in a hurry - she wants to see other men, and all she wants from you is to meet her other needs and not be an obstacle to her behaviour.

3. You are in an abusive relationship and you need to get yourself out of it. The answer is D. Can you really see yourself spending the rest of your life with a woman who's acting like your WS is acting now? What kind of example is that type of behaviour, on BOTH your WS and your part, for your DD? You CANNOT change your WS' behaviour - only she can do that, and she's clearly not interested in doing so.

Get back in the house. Give her nothing. You pay the bills. She is a vile tramp. She is eating cake and wants you to put the frosting on it for her. She doesn't think she can get a job. Well maybe if she could just stay vertical for a fort night, she would be able to find something. Forget anything amicable, that's for couples who mutually respect each other. You take everything you can.

I just talked with Steve Harley.

He basically focused on the main path of logically talking with W about beginning to do the MarriageBuilders work, to take a stand for this principal, and to repeat it un-waveringly. If she is not into doing it then he recommends pulling the plug on the collaborative aspect of the D, because I'm not working with a collaborative person who cares for my needs.

If we proceed with D then the options will need to be to either start litigation (so this is like paying for two divorces - the $35k sunk already and another $50k+ in litigation) or to use the collaborative process to have W move out, etc. I need to think about this, because I'm still giving her quite a bit in the proposed settlement I put forth - mainly in the form of upfront payments. Changing that would really blow up the process. It will also be perceived as being punitive due to her PAs.

It seems that amicable separation and MarriageBuilding are not compatible, so that's a lot to digest. Here I was thinking I was in a Plan A to Plan B transition, but it seems that Plan B requires that the financial realities be made super real, which means cutting her off, not helping her buy a condo, and generally breaking out of the collaborative D.

Went home.

Tried to have the conversation (in retrospect, probably should have waited till after W would have come back from vegas, although I don't know if it would have come out any different).

On the relationships with others it was some denials and placing it at my feet for wanting to snoop. "We've not been married for 18 months."

But the real fireworks came when I introduced looking into MarriageBuilders. she said things like "How can you go back to this old topic when we're a year into the divorce process? Again? you're asking me this again? how can you possibly be having this discussion with me again? You are not hearing me!!!!! I CAN NOT CHANGE MY FEELINGS!!!! AND THEY WILL NOT CHANGE! NEVER, EVER EVER!!!!!!!"

Final words as she stormed away were that if I ever bring this up again she might become physical (this never happened before. I don't know that it will, but it judging from her overall reaction she was pretty much there tonight).

STBXW flew off the handle on the fact that I'm continuing to not listen to her, she believes that she is talking to a brick wall, this is why we have to divorce and it's how the past 6 years have been. All this time she has never felt like she was being heard or understood, etc. etc.

I don't think she has ever yelled this loud in her life. She yelled so loud that she actually peed her pants (I kid you not).

I never even got to the parts about talking with Dr. Harley, or me pulling the plug on collaboration divorce if she can't agree to explore and understand why we are the way we are. (It doesn't help my case when she throws 2 years of IC she did while we were married, and 1.5 yrs of MC we did in the past). She recounts how the IC tried to change her mind and caused her to deny and suppress herself all these years. She also recounts how in the MC I didn't listen and wasn't there for her.

Near the end she even mentioned how amazed she was over the past two months that I was actually supportive of her competition. But now she views my recent disappearing act, combined with tonight's discussion as a form of sabotage of the entire training run and the competition.

All in all it's a good 3 months of making love bank deposits flushed down the drain. Without this talk we would have been going to the lawyers next week with me having been supportive and at the same time taking a stand for the separation agreement that I proposed while insisting that she move out ASAP.

Now we're going into the meeting with her having a seriously empty love bank. And while I can make my requests and demands, she will likely feel that she has to jump ship since staying with me is so awful. I'm very bummed. It's not Harley's fault, but I kinda wish he never planted the idea of going in and pushing so hard for doing the work right now.

W will not listen to this, and logic is not her button, she simply does not respond to that. It's all feeling, feeling, feeling. It kinda messed up the prior game plan...

I'm very bummed.

Feeling a little bit better, but could sure use some support right now.

I think I'm coming to grips with the fact that we're going to separate. It's going to be very painful for all of us involved - on oh so many levels. Me, STBXW, and DD5.

absolutely. If she is milking this situation, hurting you and having fun. Where is the collaboration? I believe that there are consequences to one actions. After the "I think you should be OK with me screwing other guys if it makes me happy" would be a deal breaker. She can't even keep her legs crossed until the settlement. What does that say about the caring person you spoke about?

Read her response to you. This woman will never try in this state. You have been way to agreeable. Dump her, divorce her and focus on you and your daughter. Let her live with what she has done.

I think you should come to grips with the fact that you're not going to have an "amicable D" when the process involves someone with your WW's current mindset. Do what you can to protect yourself and your children, and to get that WW out of your life as quickly as possible if she doesn't stop acting that way. Your WW is concerned only about herself, and that's likely not going to change unless she has a "come to Jesus" moment.

I'm sorry to say, but what you're experiencing now from her is a consequence of collaborating with her to shield her from the consequences of her poor choices. And she's continuing to make those choices because she's not seeing any consequences.

Have you exposed her adulterous behaviour to anyone that could possibly make a difference?