I think B is EVERYBODIES "first"........

not2fun

Oh ew.

Tongue in cheek is totally lost on a nurse.

Yeah, I think I better get back to work while I am behind.

So, Pep, I have been thinking on this.

The answer is most very likely not.

Not because I hate, despise or otherwise can’t stand to be around her.

Not becasue I no longer love her.


Because, I pity her.


Besides, I have no ENs left that can be met by anyone, anyway.

I did NOT see this one coming!

Hi, Aphelion. Does your W know you pity her? I ask because I doubt that you're meeting her ENs because you feel this way -- though of course I don't know this. It also sounds like you're not having yours met. So a M without ENs... Will she stick around for that? Or goodness forbid hurt you again? Is whatever it is that you're hanging around for worth being empty and numb for 2-1/2 years?

I don't know your sitch so I apologize if I'm out of line, jumping in here. After reading your answer above I'm questioning my H's motivations for staying with me. I believe if I feel he's with me strictly out of pity, I'll have to leave.

“Does your W know you pity her?”

I don’t know for sure, but probably not. I am very, very good at loving detachment. Years and years and years of practice. And zero LBs too! Besides, I doubt you know what true pity is.


“I ask because I doubt that you're meeting her ENs because you feel this way -- though of course I don't know this.”

See above. Loving detachment. Love is a verb. True mature love is actions, without burdensome and useless feelings. I check with her regularly, too. She says I am definitely meeting all her top ENs. But then I was meeting them all along. All, all, all along. Missing ENs are not a contributing factor to her VLTA.


“It also sounds like you're not having yours met.”

I have no ENs that can remotely be met by her. She has never ever met any of my ENs, ever. I have no ENs to speak of any longer, anyway. A decade of not having them met allows them to atrophy completely. I do not in the slightest need anyone to meet any ENs.


“So, a M without ENs... Will she stick around for that? “

Who cares?


“Or goodness forbid hurt you again?”

Not possible. She cannot hurt me any more. She could eat a new OM for breakfast every other morning and I will no longer be affected.


“Is whatever it is that you're hanging around for worth being empty and numb for 2-1/2 years?”

DS. And don’t go on about children in a loveless M. First, see above. This M is not loveless according to the definition of true love. It may well not be the so-called romantic brain-altering chemical love adulterers live and die for. This is well thought out, and is indeed what is best for him for now. He even agrees. Further, I am definitely not living on empty nor even in the slightest numb. (I used to wish every morning when I first awoke I was numb, but not any more.) What you call hanging around is not relevant and does not matter at all. My life is very rich and fulfilling. My life simply no longer needs her in it to any significant degree. It was a serious mistake to once and for so long believe it did. I am content. Most importantly, I am protected.

“After reading your answer above I'm questioning my H's motivations for staying with me. I believe if I feel he's with me strictly out of pity, I'll have to leave.”

Why? What’s so very wrong with pity? It’s certainly not hatred. All adulterers and former adulterers are to be eternally pitied. Look, leave your husband, your family even, if you so eagerly want to. In the end you can leave your H for your OM, old one or a new one. You can leave your H for (what you think is) love. You can leave for a single roll in the hay. You can leave for money. Shoot, you can leave for no reason whatsoever. And you can leave your H for pity. The reasons don’t matter. Perceptions are reality. Do what you feel. All adulterers do in the end.

Now, don’t get bent out of shape. This is working very well for me. It is all that is left to me. Trials and errors, calculated plans and years of discriminating actions - they all lead here. Luckily, it turns out to be what is best overall. Best for her too.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Aph - slight TJ - have you ever kept up with Hold's thread on EN?
Things there have certainly turned for the worse............

Aphelion, I like you . I have no idea why.

Appy is a good guy. That's why I like him, at any rate.

I think we 2th surprise each other when we speak on the phone, because whatever reason is behind the call, it's not got us down on the phone.

-ol' 2long

Damn.

What am I doing wrong?

Group hug?

GTF out asap. You have needs. The environment is just too toxic so you are in survival mode. EN's take a backseat when you are trying to survive in an abusive relationship with a persoanlity disordered spouse.

Once out, it takes a good long time to begin to feel again. I'm number than hell, too. These miscerants do a lot of damage.

It's good to read it's working well for you and your family, A. Thanks for answering my questions.

Take care.

Hi Aphelion

I see what you're doing, because I've been doing that too.

I have sickened myself when I have felt love for Squid that she so patently does not deserve. I hate the picture of myself that is susceptible to Squid making me love her by meeting my needs.

I like better the picture of me that is aloof, self actualized, independent, self contained. Loving Detachment without the loving: frightened to do anything too intimate with her in case it makes me love her more. And she doesn't deserve the satisfaction of knowing that she makes a positive difference in my life.

Because to admit that would be to say " its OK" to what she did to me. She stabbed me with a Morgul blade, Aphy - just like you. The wound will never be fully healed again.

Pity is a conveniently patronizing emotion to feel for our spouse; one which assumes the moral high ground and differentiates us from the evil of a wayward past.

Every time we feel a hated spark of emotion: of need: of love for this wretched person that polluted everything good in our life we LOATHE ourself, as we must NEVER show such weakness.

And every time this happens we resolve that a far stronger humbling of our spouse will be needed for us to EVER consider loving them again.

And yet...we fear them not loving us. We want them to love us and to deny them that love so we can feel valued in a way we so obviously were not when they were having their affair. and which made us reconsider our OWN value and worth.

Another LOTR reference we want them to "love us and DESPAIR" just like Galadriel.

But in building this wall around myself I was hurting primarily my ownself. Denying that I have emotional needs just as surely as I have thirst and hunger is self-flagellation. Fasting. As scripture says " afflicting our souls".

Also I realized that all this complex powerplay was taking place in my own soul. Squid just saw a distant husband - one who looked somewhat like the one she created in her head to justify her affair back in the day.

I despair of Squid ever being the person I want her to be. She will never be as contrite, as investing, as...ANYTHING as I feel I would deserve from her. But I am lying if I deny that I love her and she meets needs in my life and soul that no-one else can.

I am conflicted Aph, really I am but living like you are almost killed my soul. I HATE that I am settling in so many ways, but divorce is not an alternative to me while the kids are thriving, so I better just look to taking what sustenance I can from my imperfect marriage, and contributing to it what I am able also. It makes for a better walk through this imperfect situation Aph.

I do not believe you are quite such as rock; and island as you claim. Only folks with autism could be so. I don't have any better suggestion for you, but please do not deny your humanity by denying your instinct to unite with your wife. Even if you choose not to do it, please do not consider it RIGHT and NATURAL.

I think I understand you Aph. Maybe we will meet on the boat to Valinor one day ?

Bless ya

If your marriage were a fine wine, one could pour it in a glass and hold it up to the light:

It appears ruby clear in the glass with a deep mature hue of earth that implies that this vintage has great age. A close examination shows the trace of sediment that hovers near the bottom of the glass. Some may shake their head at this news but not to worry as sediment is not an indication that the wine has turned, indeed, many of the finest wines have sediment and it most often times does not affect the taste. It may in fact indicate that this wine has knowledge. So I am anxious with great expectations as I bring the glass to my lips. The wine coats my mouth with screams of sterile, raw with a haunting loneliness nothing like what the color leads me to believe. I am taken aback not expecting such a delivery yet the taste is clean, genuine and true with only a slight hint of bitterness masked by an unrecognizable fruit that tastes out of place, separate and young. As the fruit dies on my tongue my mouth puckers from the bitterness of strong tannins as they begin to reassert themselves and reveal that this wine while aged was opened far too early. It needs to go back on the shelf and revisited at a later date. While this wine has great potential the bitter tannins need more time to settle. Even though some reviewers may say that this wine is ready to drink now, it is, in this reviewer’s humble opinion, a “Stepford” wine, its clarity and deep mature hue a mask for what is an immature wine that needs more shelf time. Perhaps only then can we truly know this wine. I am reminded that the greatest wines of the world start with the bitterness of strong tannins that over time change and shape the wine into something entirely different and exciting that will one day define and unite the fruit.


It is always said best when it comes from the center of the heart, striped bear of pride, resentment and prejudice. Just the naked truth.

Mr. G

[quote=Bob_Pure]Hi Aphelion

I see what you're doing, because I've been doing that too.

I have sickened myself when I have felt love for Squid that she so patently does not deserve. I hate the picture of myself that is susceptible to Squid making me love her by meeting my needs.

I like better the picture of me that is aloof, self actualized, independent, self contained. Loving Detachment without the loving: frightened to do anything too intimate with her in case it makes me love her more. And she doesn't deserve the satisfaction of knowing that she makes a positive difference in my life.

Because to admit that would be to say " its OK" to what she did to me. She stabbed me with a Morgul blade, Aphy - just like you. The wound will never be fully healed again.

Pity is a conveniently patronizing emotion to feel for our spouse; one which assumes the moral high ground and differentiates us from the evil of a wayward past.

Every time we feel a hated spark of emotion: of need: of love for this wretched person that polluted everything good in our life we LOATHE ourself, as we must NEVER show such weakness.

And every time this happens we resolve that a far stronger humbling of our spouse will be needed for us to EVER consider loving them again.

And yet...we fear them not loving us. We want them to love us and to deny them that love so we can feel valued in a way we so obviously were not when they were having their affair. and which made us reconsider our OWN value and worth.

Another LOTR reference we want them to "love us and DESPAIR" just like Galadriel.

But in building this wall around myself I was hurting primarily my ownself. Denying that I have emotional needs just as surely as I have thirst and hunger is self-flagellation. Fasting. As scripture says " afflicting our souls".

Also I realized that all this complex powerplay was taking place in my own soul. Squid just saw a distant husband - one who looked somewhat like the one she created in her head to justify her affair back in the day.

I despair of Squid ever being the person I want her to be. She will never be as contrite, as investing, as...ANYTHING as I feel I would deserve from her. But I am lying if I deny that I love her and she meets needs in my life and soul that no-one else can.

I am conflicted Aph, really I am but living like you are almost killed my soul. I HATE that I am settling in so many ways, but divorce is not an alternative to me while the kids are thriving, so I better just look to taking what sustenance I can from my imperfect marriage, and contributing to it what I am able also. It makes for a better walk through this imperfect situation Aph.

I do not believe you are quite such as rock; and island as you claim. Only folks with autism could be so. I don't have any better suggestion for you, but please do not deny your humanity by denying your instinct to unite with your wife. Even if you choose not to do it, please do not consider it RIGHT and NATURAL.

I think I understand you Aph. Maybe we will meet on the boat to Valinor one day ?

Bless ya [/quote


Man, this is insightful. It was exactly how I felt before divorcing and it was killing me.
Now,that I am out, I am healing, slowly. People tell me how lucky I am to be out.

That is why, Aphe, I urge you to consider bailing soon.

Good stuff this.

Yes, but I need to digest some of it a bit more.