Two things. Music (again) and H's IB.

I got H to go to church with us yesterday. It was time for the kids to go to their worship and I went out with DD, then stayed in the back room. All of a sudden I heard “Indescribable” by Chris Tomlin playing over the sanctuary’s PA system and it was out of place as we don't do recorded music in our church.

"Indescribable" is one of my favorites of Tomlin’s. And Tomlin is one of FOM’s favorites. My H has no idea who Tomlin even is. I peeked into the sanctuary and a youth member was performing a liturgical dance to the song. It was beautiful. She was so beautiful. I stood in the back and emotions flooded through me as the tears streamed. I needed it to be about the song’s message, the lyrics, the melody, and the dance and not about something I shared with FOM. H and I had shared a wonderful night the night before. And then – in that moment in my own church – the pain of what I had done, the beauty of the girl’s movement, and the words “Incomparable, unchangeable, You see the depths of my heart and You love me the same. You are amazing, God” were all bouncing in my head. I had to leave as soon as the performance was over and I stayed in the back room so I could bawl by myself during the sermon.

During the offertory H came out to me. He asked if I was okay, and I nodded. I was still teary and he held me. He asked if I wanted to talk about it and I heeded your advice and said no. The dance was so beautiful and I want the song to be my song, not FOM’s. And I didn’t want to put that on my H. So that was that.

And that’s where this music thing is so powerful for me. On the “Song For The Day” thread last week, there were two songs posted from the FOM’s all-time favorite band. He turned me onto them, so much so that I bought 4 of their CDs and know much of their work now. And I must say, I came to love the band too. They are absolutely my style. I thought I could listen to them, but it's too much and I removed them from my iPod a couple of months ago so that I don’t stumble on their works. While their music really speaks to me and I love how they rock, they are still his. I want them to be mine, but I’m far from that. It was quite a trigger seeing those words there that I know so well and that, unfortunately, resound still.

H and I haven’t talked about the A or our M in quite a while. Believe me. I don’t want to talk about my cheating. But I also don’t want H to think I’ve forgotten about it and have put it all behind me. Do I ask him if he wants to talk at all about it? Or going forward do we talk about it only if he wants to? Any triggers, worries, or feelings I have about it I keep for IC, God, or you lucky dogs here per your advice last week.

Last week while H was traveling, he emailed me that he was going to our hometown on Sat, Feb 21. (It’s about an hour from here.) He didn’t ask if it was okay. He told me he was going. Yesterday H was on the phone talking with his brother. He said that he’ll try to “come up Friday night”. He also said, “I have to go to CA for work in two weeks.” In addition, he said, “So when is that race you want to go to?” So because I was in the kitchen with H, I learned of three outings my H is planning. Three things I was unaware of.

When he hung up I reminded him we have a date night Friday as my folks are taking the kids. H seemed bummed that he was only going to get one night with his brother instead of two. Even though, as far as I know, they are just “going out”. I asked about the race and he said they’ve talked of going the last 5 years and are talking about it again. I asked if wives are invited and he said it’s a brothers/dad thing. I then asked if he could get his business travels on the calendar as I wasn’t aware of his trip next week.

So when do I get included in his plans or asked if it’s okay for him to do these things? Yes, Jim. I am uneasy and insecure.

The day before I had told H about a very special trip my dad and his siblings are planning to their home country. They are encouraging any kids, cousins, grandkids, etc. to go. It is the first and will be the last time for my father to go. H didn’t seem excited about it. I told him how much it’ll probably be per person, and if we save now, I know we can do it. No commitment was made.

Yet, he’s talking with his brother about going to a car race in another state. Something they can do next year, or the year after, or the year next. Something they've done a couple dozen times. And I know from experience these guys weekends aren’t free.

When do I get to state my wishes? Is it too early? Will I ever get to? Is his IB my payback and it’s better that I realize this now?

I am still swirling in the afterglow of Saturday night. Which was awesome. These things are in my brain. And you are the beneficiary of my ramblings.

Well, I have to be honest with you L4. Jim or someone else will have to give you a pep talk out of this.
As I read this, tears were coming to my eyes but not for the same reason as yours.
To think that these thoughts go thru my H's mind, rips me apart. I'm sorry I can't see it thru your eyes. You have made such a great effort and have gotten to such a good place, it makes me sad to see how you easily you step back. Get FOM out of your head. Think of anything else, pinch yourself, smack your own face, carry a nail with you and jab yourself, do something.
Me, personally, I would not want to have known what was making you upset. I'm glad you didn't tell him.

This is what my H tells me, 'If you ever want to talk about anything, what I've done, anything, you can always talk to me and I will answer you'. This leaves it open.
To want to pour your heart out to him b/c of your feelings of the A, I think is selfish. Go to the park.
This is of course my thinking. And, I am just not strong enough to comfort him, that's me being selfish, but that is just the way it is.

And I personally love your ramblings

Your H's IB to me is a separate issue, and you should not consider it payback to yourself for the A.
Since he isn't into MB, I can see how it will be difficult to get him to understand POJA, which is what is needed also.

Is there a way you two could go to an MB weekend, or do the homestudy course.
The CD's are great to listen to together. I understand this would be more $$$ spent, but the results would be long lasting.

Take care and know that I really do like you so much and I hope good things for you and hubby.

V

To be clear, V, I wasn't missing FOM. I was remembering how I messed everything up. I was sitting in church (one of my favorite places to be), my H was there, one of my favorite songs was playing, a girl was interpretting and dancing so beautifully, and yet because it had an association with the FOM, what I had done also came to mind. The wonder of the music and the movement and the words of the song dominated my heart. But the moment was discolored by my guilt. I wonder if any place will be safe from the shame of what I've done?

Understood. And I have.

Gotcha L4, I understand where you are coming from better. Thanks.
We all have triggers, it sucks. How's that for wisdom. lol

There will be so many triggers, all around us, every day. And each day they get a little less.
My oldest boy got a nasty, really nasty cut. Muscle, ligaments and nerves all cut.
He is left with some numbness in the surrounding area. The hope is that in year the numbness will be isolated to one small spot. But that is how long it will take for the nerves to feel again. Another example of how we need to be patient.

So, you had a bad moment, it's over. But you had a great day with your H. Focus on that and how many other great days you will have.
Don't let this set you back. We all get 3 steps forward, 1 step back. In time, it will be 4 steps forward, then 5 steps with less going backwards.

Have patience and I know for a fact that you can do this.

Looking4, I am worried about you...

and I'm not joking...

Our friend Vittoria was deeply wounded by hearing your words about the OM...

and his favorite band...

and his songs...

she knows what I know..

and you don't want to hear...

You are still in withdrawal from the OM...

and your husband knows that...

which is why he is putting up distance between the two of you...

and planning trips without you...

You talk about your husband's independent behaviour...

Look at yourself. :twobyfour:

What would you feel about him falling apart hearing a song from him and an old girlfriend...

that he chose over you???

would you wonder who he really wanted?

Even without you telling him what was wrong, he knew it was something about the OM...

You wear it on your face just as my wife did...

Only the threat of me leaving her finally got her to tell the truth...

Remember me telling you he might bail if you didn't knock it off?

I wasn't joking.

The post that you made about wishing the OM and his wife well actually said quite a bit...

Would you have wished the man that killed one of your children well?

Or the man that raped you and ruined your life well?

Thought not...

Your husband is protecting himself from you because he knows you are still thinking of the OM...

Which is what Vittoria said so well about needing to stop thinking of the OM any way possible...

A good start is to get rid of your OWN triggers...

the OM cost you the joy of listening to those songs...

HIS filthy behaviour with YOU cost YOU the songs YOU love...

Thanks a bunch POS OM!!!

You don't have a lot of time to get this turned around...

You either start showing your husband WHO you want or he's going to narrow your choices down for you.

You start by showing yourself.

Now.

Jim

I have, Jim. The ones I can control, anyway. How can I control being in church and having a song play? How can I know that coming here to MB (my safe place), I'm going to find triggers of FOM? If music wasn't such a common thing with FOM, I'd probably be much safer, gosh darn it.

I do think this, btw. I get mad then turn the station/turn it off.

So how do I know the difference between being upset about the FOM and being upset about what I did? Because when I'm trigger, I promise I'm not dwelling on FOM, thinking how much I want him. That is NOT the case. I'm dwelling on how stupid I was. How horrible I was. That I caused the injury I see in my H. That I may have ruined my M and my family. I know the stop sign trick and the wear a rubber band and snap it trick to get yourself to stop thinking of the FOM. That's not my problem. My problem is what do I do when I see the pain in my H's eyes, knowing I put it all in there? What trick is there for getting past that?

A couple of things happened yesterday and I'll type later about it. In short, H didn't sleep with me last night. I'm confused this morning. Don't worry, I'm not showing it. I'm smiling, considerate, and being the wonderful L4 so he sees the new me. (I even worked out this morning. Woo-hoo!)

I promise I'm trying to keep my hurts to myself. Or telling you here.

Looking4,

I am going to do something you have not been doing.

I am going to answer your questions.

Then, I would appreciate you answering mine now and in the last post.

#1 You can't control what song they play in church. The problem is what you DID when you heard it i.e. "I get mad then turn the station/turn it off".

YOU DIDN'T DO THAT. YOU STAYED and LISTENED TO THE ENTIRE SONG UNTIL THE PERFORMANCE WAS OVER...BECAUSE IT WAS CONTACT WITH THE OM!!!

#2 (How do I know the difference between being upset about the FOM and being upset about what I did?)

THE ANSWER IS WHAT WOULD YOU SHARE WITH YOUR HUSBAND? (My H has no idea who Tomlin even is.) The reason is because that was PRIVATE with you and the OM. That way you could enjoy his songs while cheating in your mind on your husband...

Bet you didn't tell your H that...

By the way, I didn't say you wanted the FOM back...

You just want to keep him as a memory... (courtesy of Mrs.Flint)

#3 What do I do when I see the pain in my H eyes, knowing I put it all in there?

You haven't finished putting it in there. Your still putting it in there everyday... Your DJ's about your H are in every post. His lack of musical knowledge to not being able to afford heating oil to having to travel for his work to the cost of him going on a trip with his brother compared to spending it with the family or with you without the kids.

Let's do an analogy: Imagine you are at home, listening to your favorite song. A man breaks in and rapes you brutally while you are listening to YOUR song...The pain and anguish of what you went through while that song was playing makes it IMPOSSIBLE for you to ever hear that song without pain again.

If you are so over the OM and hate what you did sooooo badly, why can you listen to your husband's rape song and find it still so beautiful?

I have told you so many times to offer the new you and the new marriage. What place does the OM have in that? Or his songs? Or wishing him well? Or for that matter feeling guilty, because if you are the real deal there is NO reason for you to feel that way...

Only if you are harboring the OM...

Mrs. Flint wanted to keep the OM as "just family", "as just a friend". Any possible way to hold onto his memory...

THE OM HAS NO PLACE AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON IN YOUR LIFE!!!

NO GOOD THOUGHTS, BAD THOUGHTS, ANY THOUGHTS!!!

Ever.

Jim

Okay. I'll look for every question you posted above and again here and answer. I apparently need to be taken to task.

I'll do your post from yesterday first.

Sad.

Yes.

Yes.

No. But my beliefs tell me I would have to forgive him. Not saying that I could or that I would, but I'd have to try.

No. But again as above regarding forgiveness.

She said it very well and it made me sad to hear what my words did to her. (Not a question but I wanted to comment anyway.)

I have. Everything. Including getting rid of a $150 leather jacket that I've owned for 13 years and wore probably 50% of the time. Why? Because FOM said he thought I looked great in it. It became a trigger and it's gone.

Exactly! Darn him!

So this took me a while, Jim. I've had long posts in the past, but this one wins the prize. How much time do you have?

Does it matter that I was in the very back, not sitting with my H because of a situation with our DD? No. I know it doesn't.

Tomlin sings Christian music and it's very inspirational to me. Yes, there is the connection with FOM, but the music is also mine so I'm trying to take it back as you suggested, Jim. Those things I need to reclaim for myself, I'm trying. By staying and watching the beautiful dance, I thought I was doing that -- not letting the FOM take that away from me. When the hurt came forward, I wanted to fight it and instead make the song about what it is about -- glorifying God and knowing that whatever comes, God is there for me.

Sorry that I'm confused on this. I thought I'm not supposed to tell my H when I'm hurting when it has any association to my betrayal. I see my regrets for hurting H as an association to my betrayal. I thought, therefore, that I'm supposed to keep that hurting to myself. I am supposed to be there for H and to help him heal which I welcome, but any pain I have I need to go cry at the park because I don't want to remind him of the A. Right? Or so I thought... What did I miss here?

I need to show H I need him, but I can't show him I'm still hurting from what I did because that's me lamenting and reminding H of the pain I've caused us. I need to need him, but I can’t need him for helping me through this. This is the mission statement from which I’ve been working. Now in this moment, I feel like I'm going in circles.

I didn't tell H, no. I wanted to tell him that the song is a favorite of mine and it hits me emotionally because of what I've done -- reminding me how wonderful how God and God's forgiveness can be. Plus the dancer's interpretation alone brought tears to many eyes. But here's my question then... Should I tell H this? Should I also add that FOM liked Tomlin too? (Doubt it.) Should I try to get Tomlin back? Should I throw Tomlin out of my music library and accept it as collateral damage?

I don't want to keep him as a memory. But I can see how this reads.

And thank you, Mrs. Flint.

If I implied this, I didn't mean to. H loves music. It's one of our most basic recreational things. From the beginning when we dated in high school, we'd listen to music in his living room, go out dancing, and go to concerts and music clubs. H knows about music and plays guitar quite well. H doesn't know about Christian music which is about the only musical format where he and FOM differ. (Which is the basis of this music problem that I first brought up a couple of weeks ago.) And Christian music is very uplifting for me.

I don't think I said this. Us running out of oil was my fault. H was away on business and while I measured the oil in the tank, I mistakenly thought the minimum was 2". Turns out it is 4-1/2".

H has been complaining about this for years. And he has admitted that his travel probably contributed to our marriage problems in recent years. Yet he keeps the job. He can work wherever he wants as far as I'm concerned, but it'd be nice if he worked somewhere that he liked. H has been complaining about it and saying he needs a new job for about 7 years.

True. And unfair, I supposed. I get confused when one moment I'm being told I can't do something because of costs, and then with seemingly little hesitation H spends money when he's the primary beneficiary. Money that I was told we can't spend.

I understand the analogy. I don't find anything about the damage I’ve caused "beautiful". What if I don’t know what the song is for H because he won't tell me? Much of what hurts is obvious and I know to avoid those things. But other stuff is a wild guess. I keep asking and he won’t tell. I don’t know if he knows himself.

If I may answer this literally too... I don't know what the song is in my case either. I'm losing the battle in trying to take back the music that is mine and letting go of what was FOM's. They intertwine so much. I feel that my option is to go back to not listening to be sure I'm not inflicting harm on myself and my H. And exercising that option pi**es me off.

None.

None. But I want MY songs back.

I thought this was better than wishing him bad things. I can't hold FOM responsible for what I chose to do. I do believe FOM manipulated me when I was very vulnerable and I'm angry at him for that – and I know I need to let that go. But I let him do that. And I thought not wishing him ill and not being vengeful was a good thing, that I was making progress.

Okay... This one I don't get. How can I not feel guilty? You mean I can only feel guilty about the terrible thing I've done if I still have feelings for the FOM? Are you kidding me?

I know this is sick and I would not consider it for all the obvious reasons. But I understand Mrs. Flint's thoughts. I was good friends with the FOM for years. It's hard knowing that good history is ripped away due to something I could have prevented. Of course not nearly as hard as knowing I've ripped apart someone I love. I understand naively hoping one can go back to how it was because I wanted that too. I have moved away from that unconscionable way of thinking.

How do I do this, Jim? In order for me to process what I did, I have to understand why and what I did. And why and what I did was because I was influenced by another person and I let my guard down. How do I process and try to reconcile within myself and try to forgive myself while neglecting the fact that there was another individual involved?

I know it can be done. Many have succeeded so there are examples before me. And God knows I am trying. Along with prayers for my H, I pray for strength, guidance, forgiveness, and wisdom for myself every night.

Lord, have mercy. I still need help. I'm feeling rather dejected as I thought I was improving -- doing the right things and moving forward.

I tried this last night, V. As I mentioned, H has been much quieter around me. Aside from a great Saturday, he's spending less and less time with me, it seems.

After dinner, the kids and I watched a movie. H said he didn't want to, even though kids encouraged him to. H sat in the living room and read by himself for over an hour.

Kids finally in bed. H went into his office and closed the door. I knocked and walked in.
H: "What's Up?" (Not looking at me, but at the computer.)
Me: "Just wondering what you're doing. I feel like we've hardly talked, despite being in the same house."
(long pause...)
Me: "So what are you doing?"
H: "I have to work."
Me: "Oh. I thought we could talk or hang out. I miss you."
H: "Well, you can talk but I have to keep working."
(pause...)
Me: "That's okay then. Nothing critical. Just wanted to catch up, see what's going on. I'll let you work if you have to."
(pause...)
I walked over, put my hand on his shoulders, and ran fingers lightly through his hair, hoping to get his attention. H kept typing.
Me: "H, if there is anything you ever want to talk about, please talk to me. I'm here for you. I'm feeling distance between us. Please know you can talk with me about anything. I will answer any questions, I will shoot the breeze... I am here for you."
(pause)
H: (Still looking at computer) "I don't believe I can."
Me: "Why not?"
H: "Because I haven't figured it out in my own head. How can I talk with you when I don't know what it's about?"
Me: "Maybe I can help."
H: "No. I don't think so."
Nothing more. No eye contact, no stopping of the typing.
Me: "I'll let you work then."
And I left.

An hour later he joins me in the TV room. I make an attempt at small talk. Very little reaction. I finally go to bed at 10.

H comes up and tells me he's sleeping on the couch, as he wants to sleep in front of the fireplace. We've lived here 6 years and he's never done that. And there isn't room for two of us to sleep there. So I just said, "Okay. But I'll miss you." He kissed me on the forehead then left.

He crawled into our bed at 6am.

Today he thanked me for "letting" him sleep on the couch with the fire. That it's something he's "always wanted to do." I said I was glad he did it then. But I missed him.

Otherwise, we've barely talked again today. He's being kind of grumpy because the kids are getting on his nerves being on winter break so at home with us. It's been several days now of him somewhat avoiding me.

Unsure what to do. It feels like -- and I hate to type this -- like old times. Like the bad old times where he avoids me. I want to talk. He avoids me more. Of course it's not like old times because he's grappling with my cheating as am I, but I hate this feeling nonetheless.

Guess I should take a break. I'm sure I've scared everyone away with these monster posts.

For those who have made it through, thanks for sticking with me.

I was pretty high a couple of days ago. Roller coaster is taking a dip.

I'm hanging on...

Looking4,

OK, All of you non-Christian atheists and agnostics, step away less you be offended because we're going to talk about you know who...

First of all, Mrs.Flint gave you some very good advice...

She's BTDT and she knows what she's talking about...You would be hard pressed to find a better role model for one that has pulled herself up by her own bootstraps (yep, she's a cowgirl!).

Alright, here we go...

First of all, Nope the back of the church is a cop-out and you know that...

What's the difference between a non-affair song and an affair song? Yep, having the affair! Music is fine, but NOT songs you shared with the OM OR ANYTHING you associate with OM.

OK, listen up, this is important!

WHY ARE YOU STILL HURTING?

You keep telling me you are a Christian...

Have you confessed to God your adultery and lying?

If you have TRULY confessed your sin to God, and you feel and show REPENTANCE over it, have accepted grace (forgiveness from sin by God), you are a NEW creation WHO NO LONGER HAS THE RIGHT TO FEEL GUILTY...

The reason you no longer have the "right to feel guilty" is because by doing so you are implying and downright saying that GOD is not capable of absolving you from sin...

In otherwords, you don't really believe God has healed you from your sin...

Because, if you do believe and are saved, you know that you are no longer in judgment for your adultery and lying.

AND no one else has the right to accuse you either...

Including your husband...

Continuing to act as though you are unforgiven is NOT Christian and frankly is very UNATTRACTIVE to your husband.

Side note: You mentioned not knowing what your husband's "rape song" was. What I was referring to was any song that you enjoyed with the OM since while you were having your affair it is commonly referred to as raping your husband.

If you are with me you kind of see where this is going...

IF YOU HAVE TRULY CONFESSED AND SHOW REPENTANCE AND HAVE ACCEPTED GRACE AND FORGIVENESS FROM GOD YOU NEED TO MOVE ON WITH BEING THE NEW YOU WHICH YOU ARE COMMANDED TO BE...

OFFERING THE NEW YOU AND THE NEW MARRIAGE!!!

which has been my mantra for you FOREVER!!!

You then get your music back (diet of course with no OM)...

You no longer have to feel guilty...

You asked me how do I do this, Jim?

How do I process this?

You HAVE already processed it...

It was caused by what causes ALL affairs... :RollieEyes:

You either had no boundaries (which I do not think was the case)

OR

You moved your boundaries because it felt good, BINGO!!!

You wanted the self esteem boost because it felt good along with some common interests that should have been shared and met with your husband.

Alright, the big question, which of ALL the questions that you had is still not answered?

Seriously. All of this crap you are dragging around is NOT what we have been talking about is it???

The guilt, the OM, the affair songs, the selfishness (Taker) are no longer part of your life if you have been forgiven.

Start acting like it.



Jim

Hey Looking4!

I'm a FWW and I've been following your posts and see so much of myself in the things that you write. And for what it is worth, I think you are doing a very good job. It is so obvious how remorseful you are and how dedicated you are to healing from this nightmare.

Jim makes a lot of good points. Unfortunatley, releasing the guilt and shame isn't that easy...at least not for me. Everything he wrote is 100% true, but not easy. It has been over 5 years for me since my horrible behavior and 3 years since I confessed and to this day, my guilt, shame, remorse is still with me. I know my H has forgiven me and moved forward, and I know with all my heart that God has forgiven me and wants me to move forward...and it is those wonderful gifts that keep me going. But I have still been unable to truly forgive myself.

And it surely isn't from a lack of trying. Man, I've been in IC, I've read books and articles and sites such as this one, I've talked with my DH, I have prayed over and over again, but it is still with me.

So now, what I do is "act like it" as Jim says. For me, it is the whole fake it till you make it. I don't know if that is the right thing to do, but I've run out of options. My pain over this is mine and I will not let it affect my DH or my marriage. I hope and pray with that attitude at some point, it will no longer be something I have to do, it will be something that just is.

Anyway, I wanted to let you know that I hear you and I am cheering for you and your DH.

Also, in regards to the song...think of this way. Although you now look at that song from a different angle causing it to have a different meaning for you...it is still a song (gift) that you shared with the OM. If it were a necklace that he gave you and you loved very much, would you still hold it close to your heart just because it is pretty? Or would you throw it away because it's history isn't pretty at all?

Thank you, Jim. As always... Thank you, Jim. (And please thank Mrs. Flint too.) I have much to think about and work on for myself.

I'm guess I don't know what "the big question" is. I've missed it or it's so blatently in my face, it's blinding me. So I'll ask straight up. What am I not answering? I feel like I'm going in circles, wanting desparately to do what's right, to do what's best, and to help my H, yet I'm running in place.

Rubydoo... Thank you for taking the time to write to me. You wrote exactly how I'm feeling. You know exactly what I'm struggling with, and the more I struggle, the more disappointed I am because I know it's not how I'm supposed to be as a child of God. I know God has forgiven me. Maybe why I can't move on as I should is because my H hasn't, and based on our discussion this morning, he never will. Not that he's obligated to. But hard to forgive yourself when the person you've hurt the most won't do the same. You seem to understand why I feel selfish granting myself something that my victim can't give me.

This morning hurt a lot. And I'm feeling like this is all for not. I know I can't give up, but I don't know what more I can do. But I'll spare the details.

Thank you all. Your being here truly means so much to me.

Hey L4,

I've still been reading along! And, I, like RubyDoo, get where you're coming from.

Jim, I too am a Christian. And yes, I feel like I've settled my debt with God... but not with my H. I know what L4 means about the guilt, and how being "triggered" after the withdraw, etc is over doesn't mean you are "triggered" back to swoon-ish feelings of OM... but disgust of what you've done, the destruction you've created. THOSE are the triggers that I deal with now... and the ones that it seems L4 is describing. I get that. It seems to be a common FWW feeling, as Rubydoo seems to "get that" too. While the Christian stuff is very applicable-- in theory-- translating that into "real life" is VERY hard. Especially when you are confronted day after day with your own mistakes in the form of "I don't know if I want to stay married" etc. I get that.

Where I've been waiting to see if anyone has had any prolific advice for you (mainly because I want to steal it!) is in the department of "he's still behaving as he used to" (meaning in the manner that contributed to the initial crappy M).

Its a weird balancing act-- at least it was for me. I didn't feel I was "entitled" or had a right to really "enforce" boundaries on how he treated me a whole lot. I felt that that was really "taking away" from his right to be upset over what happened. It was a conundrum. And the advice I got here was all over the planet. Some said "you need to enforce your boundaries, he can't treat you this same abusive way" blah blah blah (and they were right!)... and some said "well, he's a hurting BH and you are being selfish by demanding he do this or that to make YOURSELF feel better" (and THEY were right too!).

Wow, its confusing, isn't it? I never knew what to do. And my H did/said a lot of the same things. With planning trips, $$$, the rollercoaster of emotions... etc etc etc. And a lot of times I felt as if "things were back the way they were". A LOT.

We'd have a great night, like you did Saturday, and I'd want to start to "build" on that feeling, that closeness. And inevitably, H would go thru a dip in the rollercoaster, withdraw,... I'd get disappointed, sulk, wouldn't meet his EN's very well... round and round we go!

I guess the way I slowly learned to deal with the apparent contradiction was this:

I realized that I didn't have a right to whine about things "returning to the way they were" etc. That, as Pepperband said to me (I think) I was "rearranging the deck chairs while the Titanic was sinking" by doing that. Essentially, I had to deal with the A aftermath before I could start to "fix" the original problems.

So, I had this "rule" in my head. I wouldn't accept abusive behavior (incredibly angry AO's, name calling, DJs, etc). That that sort of behavior would result in me leaving the room, the house, etc etc until things had calmed down. Really this was best for HIM also.

BUT, there were times where I had to "accept" things that were LBs to me-- but were not abusive-- and sort of learn to let them roll off my back. Things like (and its funny you say this because my H did it too...) him saying we didn't have $$ for this or that-- and then going on a "guy's weekend" with the $$ instead (I swear, he did it last spring!). I figured if I started complaining about those, or started drawing lines in the sand over it... the whole situation was going to implode.

That doesn't mean I put on a huge smile and pretended I was great with it. I would tell him I wasn't happy about this or that. But, I had to learn how to "re-phrase" things so that it wasn't whiny or accusatory. I found out that most of the time when I wasn't happy with what he was doing, I either whined and complained about it like a 7 year old--- or I would accuse him... (ie, YOU never blah blah... YOU always blah blah.... YOU never think of me... YOU don't care... etc etc).... and that would cause him to shut down.

So I phrase things as a statement of my feelings, that's all. And leave it at that. And don't bring it back up. What he chooses to do about it is his choice. For example.... "I really feel (fill in the blank... lonely, unimportant, rejected, sad, etc) when you (fill in the blank... but make it about NOW... not ANY MENTION of anything in the past...)"

As an example... you could say "I really feel like I am unimportant to you when you made plans with your brother without telling me".

That statement is about YOUR feelings. He can't argue with that. Its not accusatory. You aren't telling him that he's an inconsiderate b@stard because he planned things with his brother without telling you.

Now at first when I started telling H this he'd "argue" with me, about it. I'd just simply say "that's just how I feel". And end the conversation there. No expectations of what he should do to fix it, anything... just share your feelings and leave it.

Don't expect it will change anything, at first. It certainly didn't for my H. I'd tell him I was hurt, upset, sad... and he'd do whatever he wanted anyways. But again, slowly, it changed. Very slowly. Now? He'll actually APOLOGIZE when I say things like that. And it ends the conversation. And it seems he pays attention and tries not to repeat those things, now.

So, maybe separate out the "abusive behavior" that you won't tolerate (set boundaries) and the LB behavior that isn't "abusive" and learn to express your feelings about it, and drop it. It will take awhile for both to "take effect".

Remember, he's not on board entirely, so you can't really put "expectations" on him. All you can "expect" is that he doesn't treat you abusively-- that's a basic human right, no matter what.

That's how I've dealt with it. But it took me a VERY VERY VERY long time to get there. And a lot of confusion on my part of how I "should" behave.

OH-- and I don't share my triggers of my own guilt with my H either. Its not his job to get me over my own guilt. And I don't want to put it back in his brain if by some chance it isn't at that point. But I do understand the guilt thing. And I know its not about OM, but about what you did. I get it.

Sorry so long!

E.

Thanks, E. You and RubyDoo get me and my struggles. Sorry you're both in the same company as me. Your words are eloquent and spot on. I was going to agree to a bunch of your quotes and note "that's me!" but I would have ended up just copying your entire post. You and RD's experiences are seemingly psychic in how much they echo exactly what I'm feeling.

And your advice is sound, E. Thank you for writing. (And no one has to apologize to me about the length of a post. Any complaints from me would be calling the kettle black.)

It's a good mix of BSs and WSs leading me through this. The balance is so important.

I'm going to absorb for a while. Today's turning out to be really hard.

Peace out.

Looking4,

I wanted to give you an atheist BS perspective, because I think you said your H was not religious. From my perspective, it feels manipulative to preach about the forgiveness of god or jesus to the victim. It is like a transferal of an obligation. Like saying if only you were good enough or strong enough or holy enough you would forgive me.

As a person who does not believe that feels condescending, manipulative and self-serving. So if you H is in my boat I would recommend that you be careful about talking about your religion or sharing religious beliefs with your affair partner. That last part is particularly hypocritical.

I'm hoping this doesn't seem to harsh, I am trying to help you repair your marriage because you seem to want to fix it and are working at it. Which is more than most.

I'm glad I caught your post before I logged out, 6YL. My H is Christian, but he is indeed having a problem reconciling what I did as a Christian -- to him, to us, and to our family. He is not alone in this as I am too, having difficulties with it as you've been reading throughout this thread.

I assure you I am not brow-beating H about how religion impacts our situation. H offered (of his own accord) that he believes God has forgiven me. H also knows that many other people close to us have forgiven me including H's mother, H's Dad, H's family members, my family, our pastor, and several others. I am accepting however, that there will be others who won't forgive me -- including my H.

Your words are not harsh. They're true for you and I'm sure for even some of those who do believe -- they feel the same as you that a FWW's actions feel "condescending, manipulative and self-serving". Thank you very much for giving your persepctive and for trying to help me despite what I've done. I can only imagine how hard that is to do when you're a BS.