He knows you feel the way that you do, and that gives him the confidence that he can continue the way he is without losing his children and his paycheck. It's hard to party if you have no money. As long as you do nothing, he will continue to do this to you. He needs to be afraid of losing you, the children, and his paycheck before he will ever change. Sometimes the BS needs to take a risk to improve their situation. Trust me, struggling for money and having trouble handling the kids is no excuse to continue to allow yourself to be abused.

Shannon, your H is using your affair in what psychologists call "secondary gain." Please read this article in its entirety [at the link] because it desribes the kind of abuse you are suffering in your marriage:

Coping with Infidelity: Part 4
Overcoming Resentment


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

One of the reasons I'm not so keen on dredging up the past as a part of therapy is that it brings up memories that carry resentment along with them. If I'm not careful, a single counseling session can open up such a can of worms that the presenting problem gets lost in a flood of new and painful memories. If the goal of therapy is to "resolve" every past issue, that seems to me to be a good way to keep people coming for therapy for the rest of their lives. That's because it's an insurmountable goal. We simply cannot resolve everything that's ever bothered us.

Instead, I tend to focus my attention on the present and the future, because they are what we can all do something about. The past is over and done with. Why waste our effort on the past when the future is upon us. Granted, it's useful to learn lessons from the past, but if we dwell on the past, we take our eyes off the future which can lead to disaster.

I personally believe that therapy should focus most attention, not on the past, but on ways to make the future sensational. And when a spouse comes to me with unresolved feelings of resentment about something their spouse did in the past, I tend to put it on hold and focus on issues that prevent mistakes of the past from recurring. I ask them to trust my judgment, and see what happens to the resentment when the marriage has a chance to become fulfilling. In almost every case, resentment fades, as I predicted. While the painful memories are not entirely forgotten, the most recent marital experiences which are fulfilling and enjoyable, dominate a person's thinking, and resentment becomes weak and infrequent.

Recovery may not be complete

Resentment usually appears when an experience of the present reminds us of a painful experience of the past. For example, if a wife had been abandoned by her husband after a fight on a vacation, left to find her way home alone from Jamaica, the resentment of that experience would pop up whenever her husband walks out the door during an argument. Very often, continuing resentment means that whatever it was that caused the painful experience is still lurking in the background. And it jumps out every once in a while when evidence of it's existence surfaces.

The procedure for recovery that I suggest usually eliminates the root causes of infidelity, and that makes it unlikely that present experiences will remind a spouse of experiences associated with an affair. If the only time you feel resentment about a spouse's past affair is when your needs have not been met, when your spouse is engaged in a Love Buster, or when the Policy of Joint Agreement or Policy of Radical Honesty has not been followed, then it's the completion of recovery that's your problem, not resentment.

Using resentment as a way to control and punish a spouse
I'm convinced that what's kept the resentment of S.R.'s husband alive for so many years is that he has found it to be an effective way to control and punish her whenever she doesn't do what he wants. Whenever they have a fight, he brings it up, and it causes her such guilt that it gives him a decided advantage in winning the argument.

By this time, I don't believe that her affair is the problem that she thinks it is. Instead, it is an issue that her husband is using to get the upper hand in his relationship with her. It probably shows up the most whenever she has been reluctant to have sex with him. It throws her off balance whenever he mentions it, and makes her feel guilty, wanting to make it up to him somehow. He may also bring it up whenever she is winning in a power struggle he is having with her.

What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple. There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.

I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"

What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."

My advice to her husband is to never mention her affair again. It's a good example of one of the enemies of good conversation, dwelling on past mistakes. Whenever you keep bringing up your spouses past mistakes, you not only make your conversations incredibly unpleasant, but it cannot possibly lead to a resolution of a conflict you may be discussing. And as soon as his resentment doesn't pay him any dividends -- no longer helps him get his way -- he will find that it hardly ever occurs to him.

Hanging on to an unpleasant thought because it helps us somehow is what psychologists call "secondary gain." It means that even though the thought is unpleasant, it gets you something you need, so your mind keeps it around for its usefulness. There are many unpleasant thoughts that have this characteristic, and I have helped many people let them go by helping them destroy the usefulness of the thought. Making sure that S.K.'s husband never gets what he wants by bringing up her affair will help him overcome his resentment.

Am I being unreasonable? I get so upset.

Yesterday I had some extended family issues going on. At lunch, I called my H to give him an update. He was at lunch. He usually eats lunch alone, so I wasn't too worried about interrupting anything. Well, he politely listened to my update, then asked me if there was anything else, as a way to let me know that he needed to get off the phone. I asked him where he was. He was in HER office. He had taken his sandwich in there to eat and chat w/ her.

HER is the single coworker that he earlier propositioned, (but she turned him down), and now they're good friends. I know they talk quite a bit, but he usually won't tell me because he knows I get upset.

After telling me where he was, he acted embarrassed and tried to restart our conversation. Like was there anything else I needed to tell him, blah, blah. I just said no, bye and hung up.

30 minutes later, he gets back to his desk and sends me an instant message asking if I'm mad.

It goes downhill from there.

He said he was sorry, but at least he didn't lie about it. Told me I can either trust him or not, and if not, then I can just learn to live with it. He said he lived for years with doubts about me. That there's nothing going on, and he's not seeing her to punish me, but this is the bed I've made.

He knows it hurts me. He knows it upsets me. So is he really doing it to purposely hurt me, or does he just not care.


He tells me that we can be good, but that he doesn't/can't love me like before, that he has no expectations of our marriage. He tells me we need distance, that we need to work on ourselves. That I need to be comfortable in my own skin. That I don't know who I really am. That I haven't taken full responsibility for my A 20 years ago. One day he asked me if I like myself, I said I was working on that, then he replied w/ how can you like yourself after what you did?

On the surface we get along great. But he keeps playing all these mental games. I wonder if he really has some sort of problem.

We talked a lot yesterday about trust. I realize now that what really hurts is I don't trust him with my heart. What I really want is to not love him. How do I do that?

Shannon,

There is something in my wifes past, something like 15-20 years, I don't exactly know what it is but I'm working on her to figure it out. Hopefully it is nothing but it has bothered me for years. In fact I used to have nightmares about it, the kind you wake up from and they seem real.

If it turns out to be something, I will regret the years of fidelity I have given the most. Baseball bat for the OM I'm not sure yet.

Does you H feel any hostility towards the OM? Have you exposed to OMW?

NJ

Personally, this sounds like a MLC and is using your A as a lever.

Have you read through these sites to instigate a POJA into your marriage?

I feel so bad for you. I know what it's like to be abused in every way (parental) and it breaks my heart that you've tolerated this behavior, despite the fact you had an A.

My thoughts are that either she didn't turn him down and he lied and said she did or that he's working on changing her mind, period.

I think you deserve better for yourself than someone who treats you the way he does and behaves with such disrespect towards his wife. He's using your A as license to do whatever he wants and that is just wrong.

NJ:
At first, H was VERY hostile toward OM. He stalked his house. Imagined he saw him out on the interstate, etc. At one point I was very afraid he might kill him. But, as far as I know he never confronted him. I'm not sure how he feels about him now, but he has calmed down quite a bit.

No, we did not expose to OMW.

I know that we've made many mistakes since D-Day in 4/06. (I didn't find this site till much later) Part of our problem is that the A was 20 years before dday. (It's now been 23 years.) I believe, and have tried to convince my husband, that the A was my fault. Yes, influenced and encouraged by OM, but ultimately it was my weakness that caused it to happen.

After dday, H talked to several friends, and told them all about it. He was looking for advice and sympathy. After his A(s) he told not all, but some of the same friends. Some just shook their heads and said "yep, revenge affair" and some even encouraged him. His female coworker said something to the effect of "well, now you've both done something stupid".

We never exposed to family. Mainly because both of our mothers are problems. His mom panics at every little thing, then calls the church to get on the prayer lists, and would tell literally everyone. Family, strangers, friends, etc. But the problem is that she never gets the story straight. She's so bad about it, that he never even considered exposing my A to her. My mom is in her late seventies and is not in her right mind. Actually, we think that she may be having an A while my dad is in a nursing home.

My H finally exposed to our oldest son (19). Ticked me off, because I don't know exactly what he told him, and we had talked about it, and based on counselor's advice, decided not to tell him.

Anyway, what I've been thinking lately is exposing myself to family. Exposing my A, but not H's. That would be for him to do. H thinks I'm not taking responsibility for mine, maybe this would prove to him that I am?

Imagine:
Sounds like MLC to me too.

We've never had a POJA. Before dday I can see where I was a taker. (Yes, obviously the infidelity, but I'm really talking about other stuff.) But, in a way, H like that. It took all the pressure off him to make any decisions about house, kid stuff, etc. He always acted like a bystander. He was living in the house, but it was like he wasn't really there. He may not have liked my decisions, but was glad he wasn't having to do anything.

After dday, the roles completly reversed. I would do anything to please him. But, it was the self-sacrificing, suffering-servant kind of agreement. Things have stayed the same even after his A was revealed, because he blamed that on me too. I was about to say that I don't know how much longer I can keep this up, but truthfully, I've gotten to where I just don't care about stuff anymore. Except for him and other women.

Coachswife:

I said the same thing to him yesterday in an instant message exchange. Didn't get a straight answer:

me: even if you're not cheating, I still see it as very disrespectful. But just for the record, I don't think what I did gives you lifetime permission for everything.

H: 20 years?

me: I get to be paranoid for 20 years, or u get to do what u want for 20 years?

H: We have been changed forever.
IT changed us. No matter whos fault
or bad actions / reactions.

Shannon,

I believe, and have tried to convince my husband, that the A was my fault. Yes, influenced and encouraged by OM, but ultimately it was my weakness that caused it to happen.

From a male perspective however an older man who seduces a younger woman is a predator.

Did you consider exposing to OMW yourself and do you think that would help your H?

NJ

I agree it changed your relationship forever and I can sense his feelings of betrayal are very strong but it's still wrong for him to abuse you. Not to be angry but to be abusive.

I was a WW in my first marriage and I've worked very hard on myself since then in counseling etc. I remarried. I remember telling my now H about being wayward in my first marriage with a great deal of shame and fear that he wouldn't want to be with me (he had been the betrayed husband in his marriage) He hugged me and told me I needed to forgive myself and he's never mentioned it again. It's amazing to me. When we fight he could easily always say "Well you cheated in your first marriage" but he never ever has.

It's hard to put a timeline on your H's healing- and I can't say he's wrong for some of his anger but the abuse is the part that I cannot tolerate. It seems he uses this to prop up his bad behavior and that's not acceptable.

NJ:
Yes, my H thought at first the OM was a predator, he was a player, it was rape, etc. This was along the time I was afraid H would do something that would land him in jail.

As for me, hindsight isn't 20/20, but I do see where OM said what I wanted to hear, thought I was just a conquest, etc. But somehow not in a malicious way. I think he was just out to have fun, not ruin my life. When I broke it off, he didn't really even seem to care. I've told my H this, and I know it's weird, but it's kinda like I had a ONS that took 2 months to happen.

No, I never really considered exposing to OMW. But, I would not have been surprised if my H had. At the time (dday) we were both just so emotional and so upset, that we didn't want the drama and trouble of bringing other people into it. And since it was 20 years in the past, it wasn't like it was necessarily time relevant or urgent news that needed to be shared.

Coachswife:
Thank you for your concern about the abuse. I really do mean that. And I don't mean to make light of the abuse. The fact that he inflicted it, or the fact that I accepted it. But, let me just make a comment.

We've been to 2 different MC and I've posted on 2 different forums. Each time I've tried to present our story as accurately as possible. So that included the abuse. My thought is that it's kinda like going to a medical doctor. You have to be accurate and honest w/ your symptoms if you expect to get useful treatment. But, in the case of marital trouble, as soon as you mention abuse, all attention is based on that, and ensuring the safety of the abusee. I completly understand that. But, other issues then take a backseat.

So, I've wondered what kind of comments I might be getting if I had never mentioned the abuse. I've even told my H that I wish he hadn't done it, if for no other reason than it confused things and changed everyone's perspective. I think he might have gotten more constructive critisim and help out of MC if the MC hadn't been slanted against him because of the abuse.

Does that make any sense?

If the affair was over and in the past it most likely best to not tell the children.

It was wrong for your H to single out one child, and only tell him about your affair.

At this point due to your H's actions all the children need to be told the truth. That mom and dad were wayward.

Next I would expose his improper realtionship at work. He asked her out, and still is working her.

Shannon,

When I broke it off, he didn't really even seem to care. I've told my H this,

Again from a male perspective you were nothing to him and you were everything to your H.

Does you H have good self-esteem as far as looks and his attractiveness to other women? This might be contributing to his inability to move forward. Also has he met up with OM socially before you had revealed to him.

NJ

We have 2 sons, 19 and 13. DS13 is autistic and it would be totally inappropriate to try to explain something like that to him.

I'm pretty sure when H told DS19, he included his own infidelity. I waited a while, and asked DS19 if he had any questions, and he said no. But he has some of his own issues going on and we actually think he may be on the autistic sprectrum himself. H said DS19 acted surprised by the information, but didn't really seem to care.

I'm not sure how I could go about exposing at H's work. Mainly it's a bunch of guys, and they really wouldn't care. Or they'd think it was funny. From the stories I hear, most of them have done much worse. Possible OW is single. It's a huge place, and they don't actually work together, just in the same huge building. They don't actually work for the same company either. They're both subcontractors w/ different companies. He works w/ a bunch of guys, she works in an office with 1 or 2 other women. I guess ultimately HR might care. But they really might not. And this is all while he's swearing that nothing is going on.

Is there a list somewhere of signs of an EA? I'd like to show it to him. What he thinks of as friendship may be getting out of hand w/out him realizing it. Isn't that usually the way?

New Jersey:

I'm just curious.

What does it matter if the OM was a predator or not? I ask, because this seemed real important to my H too.

If the W was played, or taken advantage of, does it make it easeir for a H to accept? Does it make the WW somehow less guilty?

Shannon,

Didn't reply at first because I had about 100 reasons why OM being a player is important. Not sure I want to write some of them down. Again this is my perspective and since you didn't write much about your husbands character prior to your revelation it might not apply.

A big one might be that your H has lost out to those types of Men in the past, it can be as simple as in my case when my 14 year old girl friend was taken advantage of, when I was 15 btw, by a 23 year old guy. I've always felt there was something grossly unfair about it, but back then I didn't have the sense to bust him to the police or his kneecap into 1000 pieces.

There is also the sense that someone who has so much takes the only thing a person who has so little has, he may feel that he had to work hard to get what he has including you.

Is the OM wealthier, better looking, more charming or in any way superior to your H?

God Bless
NJ

For quite a while it was very important to my H to determine if OM was a player. He researched the player lifestyle, the pickup lines, etc. There's whole websites dedicated to this kind of crap. I'm not sure how he feels about OM now in regards to being a player. Ironically, H used all this new found information when he went online looking to cheat on me. He doesn't consider himself a player, but admits that he told the women what they wanted to hear, was more open and friendly than was natural, etc.

H used to be real shy around women. As he's gotten older he's gotten over that. Now he flirts with EVERYone. He says it's just being friendly. But it's funny that he's much friendlier with women than men. He loves to say outrageous things. It's very embarrassing being with him when he does this. BTW, his dad was an obnoxious dirty old man.

I don't know if I'd call the OM a player or predator or not. Mainly his was just a very different lifestyle. He was older, and had been single for years, and was used to picking up girls, having casual sex and moving on. Making it clear all along that he wasn't looking for anything serious. I was a very young and sheltered 22, and so this guy and his lifestyle was way out of my realm of experience. Believe me, I've kicked myself a thousand times for getting mixed up w/ someone like that.

I think my H may have some insecurities about his looks. But to me, he is (and was at the time) much more attractive than the OM. I'm tall, and one of the first things to attract me to H is the fact that he's tall. OM was short. OM was not wealthy. He was a little more established just because he's 10 years older than H. He's still not wealthy but drives a nicer truck, etc.

H didn't date much before he met me. So I don't think he lost out to this type of guy before. He'd never met OM before. Didn't run in the same social circles or anything. I think H looks at it like the OM totally disrespected him, took what was his, etc. And like you said, I was nothing to OM, but everything to H. I think it's extra insult that OM did something so casually that caused so much pain.

But I still believe that it was all my fault. Not OM's.

If he hates OM so much for doing something so vile (OM knew I was married), does H not see that the other women are doing the same thing. Or is he able to justify everything in his mind?

Shannon,

He is taller than OM, well thats a major advantage for you, I would presume you have told him that. Given the same exact everything the taller guy would usually get the girl.

Unfortunately for you, now that he feels entitled to revenge affairs, his height also makes it easier to score.

Does he say that all his memories since the OM are now tainted, it almost sounds like you H is on the autistic spectrum btw and has a very good memory, does he collect reams of data and details and then sorts through them.

God Bless
NJ