The best option is for you both to get healthy and that means both of you learing similar things. If the MB concepts are not quite a fit because of the abuse, maybe learning about abuse, power and control and the like are probably the best place to start.
Don't worry about what work he's getting done or waiting on a call from a men's program, call the woman's shelter; get some information about the laws in your area and find a support group and start taking steps as though your WH is an (almost) ax murderer and you need to learn more to protect you and your kids.

I know that sounds dramatic, but (and maybe this is a 2x4), but although there are other women here with screwed up husbands, an abusive husband is a different animal and they only function if they have a partner who can do that particular dance. NOTHING will change until you change and that doesn't mean the Forum; that doesn't mean praying more (although that's good), and it doesn't mean adjusting infedelity recovery to your particular situation.

It means setting limits with him that are legal and not grey and not completely up to you to manage. Right now, you can not protect yourself from him. You need help doing that.

It absolutely sucks that you are where you are, but the single most scary thing to me is your chipper posts on your thread and others and that is what people are responding to. Your situation sucks but it is dire. Contact the supports in your area; have a clear plan; have a counselor who knows something about DV (not necessarily infidelity, because that is NOT THE PRIMARY ISSUE!!!) and work your plan.

2M2L, your situation scares me and I think it scares others and I think I just figured out that it scares me, because you don't seem to be alarmed. Please think about what I am saying. This is not from my experience as an abused wife, but from working with countless families in treatment for DV. I was always scared when I would sound the alarm from experience and be met with, "yea, but he..." and I think there has been some here.

There is no reason you cannot plan b an abusive partner, but yes, you'd better have a plan. So, it concerns me that you are in a grey area because the MB plan doesn't quite fit your situation, but your situation is different.

Please, find support (including the legal supports) in your area and post and let us know how it's going.
As much as I need support, you would do me a world of good to know that you are safe and on a good plan across the globe more than to have a post from you. You are in a very serious situation and I think we all need to see that you get that in your action. Your WH has no rights (morally) to the children if he is not a safe person. Legally, I don't know, but please stop thinking that you are doing the kids a favor by keeping him in his life in this sick state.

2M2L, I am not trying to bust your chops or disregard all that you have tried to do these many years, but really, hon, progress in your case is going to look very different and it will likely include 0 contact with WH for awhile. Please let go of your current addiction to him!


I mean every one of those and I will be thinking about you. Action, my dear, not positive thought, is needed here. Remember what I posted earlier about the legions of men I had worked with who said that they never would have taken steps to get healthy unless they were charged with domestic violence. Sometimes it takes folks a huge consequence to 'get it,' please consider and please accept the concern, advice and hugs with all the affection they are sent with.

BF439

I know you're right, I really do.

I googled different sites last night and can't find support groups for women, but there is a drop in centre in the city that I might try to get to tomorrow if not Friday.

I fear his anger when he sees my independence and I fear his control when I stand up to him. I wish there was a way to make it go away with inaction, I would be great at that!

I have also realised my dependence on him and it scares me.

I wish that I had not had children with him. I love my children so very much and know they are the reason we came together, but I don't want this life for my children.

CP - I found youngandlearnings threads last night and the stories are very similar. The threats, tears, damage to property, control, rollercoaster...

Ugh.

I also tried to read "Why Does He Do That" again last night but I end up skimming over it and crying. I guess acknowledging that it's him means accepting that he wont change?

Really?

Because everything I've seen on your thread demonstrates that you do.

2M2L, you keep coming up with excuses for not doing the right thing for your children. And when you have no excuses, you say your too afraid of his anger if he sees you independent...that's just another excuse.

The only difference between you and the ladies on your thread who've been where you are and are trying to help you, is that they stopped making excuses and did the right thing.

And the only difference between you and the woman in this poem....

is time.

Please get help now. Please save your children....now.

What happens when you don't leave

Yes, it's eerily frightening.






Just quoting it because it needs said again.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

The only thing YOU can do is determine what YOU (and your kids) can survive; anything beyond that, he should leave.

Have you gone to www.unitedway.org yet?

btw, I am SO glad you are listening and looking into solutions. Your kids will thank you some day.

You know, maybe WSs aren't the only ones who need to perform recto-cranial extraction.

2M2L--

Why are you even posting here? You refuse to follow advice and you put yourself and your children in danger.

It's only a matter of time before someone reports you for endangering your children by putting them in these situations.

karmarose,

That was not helpful to 2M2L.

We are the only ones that she is reaching out to. She has been in a cycle of abuse and she needs help.

As long as she is here there is a chance she will listen and get the help she needs.

She is taking baby steps and yes, she needs to do much, much more. We all want her to hurry up and do the right thing.

Because we are terrified for 2M2L and her children.

TM2L is getting excellent advise here from people that have seen and dealt with abuse.

It IS very painful to see what 2M2L is doing, we can only pray that she gets the help she needs.

SMB!!! You are so right on!!!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

At this point it does not look like she wants any help.

I apologize for my roughness in dealing with this.

I have found that people who haven't been raised in abusive situations often find it hard to deal with the time frame it takes abuse victims to make changes in. You can't just wake up and say 'wow, that was rough. Time to make some changes.' These people have been categorically trained to not trust themselves, to hate themselves even, and to feel any decision they make will be the wrong one. This is one case where coddling sometimes is necessary. Of course, there comes a time when you have to get them to face facts. But such people are severely shame-filled and extremely susceptible to low opinions of them, so it's best to be aware of what their triggers are so as not to shut them down. God knows it's happened to me a few times since I've been here.

just catching up:


This line alone shows that you dont get it yet.

HIS EN WILL NOT HELP YOU IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. NOT ONE LITTLE BIT.

Getting help for yourself has nothing to do with his EN's!!!!!

You want him to fill that out, and give it to you, so you can go about filling those needs to over flowing. You want to put aside your children, and their need for a healthy mom. You truly are not thinking of those darling kids. You want to know his EN's so you can set about being the perfect W for him. That will NOT help you, or him, or those inncoent babies who keep getting pushed aside so you can have a man in your life.

Even if he fills that EN form out, he is doing while he is in a very bad place mentally. He is not going to sit down and look at it clearly, with a mature, loving attitude. He is looking at it and trying to decide how to fill it out in just a way to get you to do what he wants. To further control you. Dont you see that??

This whole idea of waiting for him to "hit rock bottom" so he can finally get help, is not really grounded in fact. Some people dont "hit rock bottom" and then get help. I have told you about my brother before. At this point he is 51 years old and living on the streest. It is cold, wet and rainy here right now. His case worker made arrangements for him to go get help from a shelter, where he could live full time, and get counseling to deal with his emotional issues, his anger problems, and also get him a basic job so he could eventually live on his own. All he had to do was tell the shelter people that he was ready to change his life, and then attend their group therapy. That is it. He had to SAY he wanted to change. He refused to do it. He did not want to agree to their schedule of counseling, and having a steady job. This man has celary hit rock bottom. He sleeps on the street. But he would rather be "independant" on the street, instead of accepting help that required him to grow up and be a responsible man.

Your WH is no differnt from my brother. He is just younger. Do you really want to put your childrens lives on hold for another 10 years while you wait for that magical rock bottom???

by the way, do you want to know what my brothers excuse was? the reason why he won't go to the mens shelter and agree to their counseling? He said he doesn't need it. He claims that his anger problem is not HIS problem, it is his girlfiends (former GF) fault. She provoked him, and made him angry, and that is why he was abusive to her. He is still waiting for her to come to her senses and agree that SHE needs help, so they can get back together. Still, today, he blames her. Sound familiar??

KR, I understand your frustration. I don't post on this thread very often because it enrages me that 2M2L puts her children's lives at risk continuously and yet considers herself a loving mom.

Yet, I know that a wife in an abusive situation thinks differently than I do. And those that can help her best are those who have been there and have freed themselves from it.

But the kid gloves are getting a bit tiresome as we wait for the final explosion. I wonder...will it be all of them dead or just 2M2L?

2M2L, I wish you could see that we are :twobyfour: you not to hurt you, but to somehow WAKE YOU UP from your blind sleep.

YOUR CHILDREN NEED THEIR MOTHER TO ACT RIGHT NOW. I realize you aren't too concerned for you own safety, but how can you continue to turn a blind eye to the danger your sweet little ones are in?

WOF, your post as excellent.

I worry that that will happen, SMB. She claimed in an earlier post:



I worry that she will "know what is best" right into having her WH go off the deep end and do something horrible.

Thank you SMB, KR, MissM, WOF, CP

I would love to respond to all of you because I truly have been touched by your words. I just really don't know what to say. i hear your frustration but Catperson is 100% correct when she says that I do not trust my instincts anymore. I thought I was in a better place with my self esteem and worth but I know that I am lying to myself. I live everyday hoping that WH will change and we can go back to happy families where I make a futile effort to make him happy. But, it's what I know.

I asked him on Tuesday if he had called the anger management group and he showed me the numbers in his top pocket and said he would try again. Apparently he left another message.

His behaviour has been really different. He doesn't get furious now. He verbalises that he feels angry that I said x and needs to be alone, needs to go, needs to hang up etc. Not only that, he lets things go now that upset him.

It's far from perfect, but I certainly don't feel that our lives are threatened. Like I have explained before, he is not living at home so I am in a very privaledged position compared to most abusive situations. I don't have to make plans to leave my H and he cannot get into the house. Locks were changed months ago.

He knows that he cannot swing back through the doors without extensive help, treatment and change. I have referred him back to my 2nd PBL that KaylaAndy helped me write which detailed the anger and abuse.

I will know when he starts the anger group because they will call me and put me into the group for the partners.

SMB - I printed the poem and cried. It's a scary reality and I hope and pray that my WH is different. Time really will tell.

Miss M is also right that this is me reaching out for help. I know I am faceless to you and you are faceless to me, but in business I am so confident and well respected. No one I work with or meet in life would suspect what my life is like behind closed doors. I tried to speak with a colleague about my fear once and I was shut down for over-reacting and not giving WH a chance.

His family have told me too that this is all my fault, but I have been lucky that I haven't spoken with them since Christmas and they don't want to contact me because they hate what I've become etc. I have no support from his family and they are all abusive to me and each other and do not know how to love unconditionally. They don't want to come to DS's 2nd birthday and WH is really hurt by their selfishness. I picked a large public venue so that we didn't have to talk to each other and I wouldn't be intimidated, but it's never enough.

My parents and sisters are very supportive of me and worried too. They are so happy that he does not live with us and they know when he visits and so do my neighbours and I have people ready to help and support 24/7.

I haven't been to the women's shelter yet. I have been busy at work and I want to go there in person so that I cannot switch off when they talk to me. I know I need to hear what you have all said to me. I am afraid that you might be right, but I am hopeful that you are all wrong and I am so confused.

He visited last night and was sweet and loving. I was kind and indifferent and I meant it. We had people come to look at the car and he called me out and introduced me as his wife and it was surreal, just like the old days... He went home when they left and walked back up the driveway to kiss me onthe cheek and hug me - respectfully, not lustfully.

I am aware now and before I was blinded. I don't stand in corners or follow him when he's angry. I don't argue with him and don't accept him raising his voice. My boundaries are getting firmer and I am getting stronger. I am just not where you all want me to be. I feel like a failure but I felt like one before so...

Please explain this one thing to me:
why do (did) you think that HIS EN form would be helpful for you, in your counseling????

What is he doing to meet YOUR needs? Did you fill out your ENQ and give it to him?

Honestly, my counsellor said that she thinks he has been trying and to give him a little bit of encouragement so that he didn't give up and go back to old bad habits.

Now, he doesn't argue and walks away.

He tells me his movements with OW as far as band and wants to be honest with me. Knows it's a long road and I have said he doesn't owe me anything but he continues to try.

Always makes his visits with the kids on time.

Rings them when he says he will.

Rings me during the day to check on me instead of height of affair when he wouldn't call me for days and berated me for calling him.

Offers to help around the house/garden.

Gives me money from the gigs as per his schedule.

Asked me for the 'date' on v-day and asked if we could spend more 'recreational time' (his words?) together and relax and just let the tension be.

Gave me the BMW to drive and he took the Hyundai.

Increased his days at work to a full 5 day week and he's in to month number 4 now and got his business cards printed yesterday. WOF - I know that you know what a big deal this is for him to hold down a M-F 38 hour week.

He made a stand to attend DS's second birthday and stood up to his mother and brother who argued with him about attending themselves and berating him for having anything to do with me.

Invited me to a gig with old band and made me feel very welcome and loved.

Put extra parking money in the BMW for me so that I wouldn't be short of change.

Called the mens referral line for help and is waitlisted for a anger management course. The first courses in Feb had been booked up as they were the first one's since Nov 08. The next courses start in May.

*****

From all accounts, this is a mixed up man who's actions for almost 2 months have been improving and he's being more respectful to me.

So, it seemed like a good time to ask him to do the survey. Right now I am filling very few of his EN's as I had decided to pull back and put the focus on me. It was a choice to give him the v-day card from me and find and express any love I had for him. I didn't say I love you, but gave him admiration which is his number 1 need.

Like my IC said, it's good to show him praise for how far he has come so that he sees that with hard work and determination, he would be in a place to have his family back.

He rushed the EN survey and wants a chance to do it properly and asked me to apologise to the IC for it being rushed, but he wanted me to have it before my session.

I hope this helps explain WOF.

We're not at that stage quite yet, but I think you will see from my previous post that he is actully trying.

My number one need is quality time and affection. He is really trying to meet those at the moment but I don't want to push him to fill my EN's.

I want to be removed from the situation so that I don't need him to fill them for me. Does that make sense? I fill quality time and affection needs with my kids. They are incredible and we spend all our spare time together so it works for me - most of the time.

I filled it out a long time ago when he was out of the house and on plan F-U so it isn't relevant now. Like I said, I am in no rush.

Tonight my family is coming for tea so the kids will play and I will spend time with my parents and sisters. WH doesn't know I have plans and I'm not sure if he'll try and show up. He told me the other day he wants more time with me and the kids, but I'm resisting and sticking to my plan.

Plan C also stands for Calm and Cool.

As I suspected...

Buyer of BMW wants to pick up the car this afternoon and WH was pushing for tonight.

Eventually, after I hadn't asked him why, he asked me if I would be home.

I said yes, I had invited my family for tea.

He got upset and said that he wants to see his kids and why didn't I ask him, he hasn't seen them since Wed and I should have known that he'd want to see them tonight.

I politely replied that I didn't know or assume anything. He agreed to the visitation schedule for Wed and Sat and I made plans because we are separated. He told me he drove in instead of the train so he could see them. I told him he had never mentioned it to me.

He said he feels like picking up the kids tonight to see them anyway. I didn't even go there with him. He is a spoilt child who wants to only spend his free time with the kids when it suits him.

Ugh.

Has anyone got a polite reply for him that restates visitation etc? I don't know what to tell him without being a LB and pushing him to anger. It's important that I keep things mellow.